PT "Obi-Wan Once Thought As You Do ..."

He is through his characters.

1. Luke loses his hand in TESB. He is unarmed and mostly helpless. He doesn't use the Force to defend himself.

2. Vader loses his hand in ROTJ. He is unarmed and mostly helpless. He doesn't use the Force to defend himself.

3. Dooku loses his hands in ROTS and is helpless. He doesn't use the Force to defend himself from Anakin.

4. Anakin loses his arm and legs and doesn't use the Force to save himself. He is helpless.

5. Palpatine did not lose his hands and uses the Force to defend himself. He is not helpless, but pretends to be in order to make Anakin attack Mace.

Qui-gon's defiance isn't a crime to the Council. If he had killed Nute Gunray who was unarmed and helpless, he would be a criminal. Obi-wan warned Anakin that if he forced the Clonetroopers to turn the drop ship around and go back for her, that would be grounds of expulsion. Anakin killing Dooku was wrong, because it was a crime and that is why he didn't tell the Council or Obi-wan. Note that Lucas had Obi-wan knocked out to prevent him from stopping Anakin and even knowing what he really did. If the Council knew, he would be a criminal and be arrested for his actions.

It was his place because he was his Master and it was his responsibility to tell Luke. If he had cared, he would have told him. And yes, lying by omission is still a lie. He doesn't tell him the truth, so he is lying to Luke. Every minute he doesn't tell Luke, he is lying to him. Did you even read what lying by omission means?

 

Nope. But, you are allowed to create your own reality. That's fine.

Yeah, I am the one who highlighted that to YOU, remember? Because you thought that all crimes were the same and you didn't know that there was a spectrum of immoral actions, remember?

Says who? It's not implied anywhere in the saga that a Jedi Master must tell his apprentice everything he is knows.

Now your argument is that Yoda didn't care about Luke?

 

Many filmmakers place parts of themselves into the characters that they write.

He only used the Force to contact Leia, he did not with the shaft. Prove it.

Where is it shown that Vader use the Force to kill Palpatine? He just picks him up like a ragdoll. He was helpless when he was laying there before then.



He doesn't do anything to stop Luke.

How does he use the Force to save himself? What, because he didn't die from his injuries? Hell, people don't always die from third degree burns like that.

He does pretend to be weak and helpless. What he does afterwards isn't the point, the point is that he makes Anakin betray Mace on the principle that Palpatine is helpless and weak and that is what prompts him to respond as he does.

Defying the Council is not a crime, nor was it immoral. Killing a helpless person and killing hundreds of people needlessly are the same thing.

I never said that. I said that it was his responsibility to tell Luke the truth and not perpetuate a lie that was told to him.

That is one argument. That someone who lies, even by omission, is showing a lack of care for someone else. That's why Luke is angry in ROTJ, because they both lied to him and continued to lie to him until forced to admit the truth after Vader revealed it.

 

But they do not appear in the film. That's the difference between a director and an actor.

You'r learning!

So he was helpless before he murdered someone? How did he become not-helpless in such little time? What changed?

CORRECT!

I heard the more you say something, the more true it becomes. Good luck!

He doesn't seem angry. He stays by Yoda's side as Yoda dies peacefully. Then he has a calm coversation with Obi-Wan. WHAT ANGER!!

 

They appear when the director tells the actor who to act, or they stick to the script.

Luke threw away his Lightsaber after refusing to kill him. Right before then, he was helpless. He never chokes Luke or Force shoves him out of the way.

Being angry is not about shouting, or being beat red in the face. Luke has anger in his heart in ROTJ, because he was lied to. It is why he was willing to Force choke on the Gammoreans and why he was a bit gleeful at Jabba refusing to go along with his attempt at bargaining for Han's freedom. It is why you can hear anger in his voice when Yoda says that it was unexpected that he found out the truth the way that he did and you can hear him be derisive towards Obi-wan when he's told about the certain point of view.

 

His anger was at his friends being humiliated and imprisoned by a notorious crime figure. He does not know yet that he has been lied to.

Once he is faced with the truth about his father, and the fact that he definitely had been lied to, and the reasons why, he has to reexamine his relationship with anger and revenge. Because the subject of that anger is his father.

And his anger is directed specifically at Yoda's suggestion that it is unfortunate that he knows the truth. As if Luke was never supposed to know.

 

You mad, bro?

 

A. They don't.
B. Directors and writers have different roles in a film. It's literally in the job titles.

Why did Luke throwing his lightsaber make Vader not-helpless?

That's really good fanfic. He didn't seem angry, he just seemed annoyed. Him and Obi-Wan never discussed any anger. He never displayed anger in the entire film until Vader/Palpatine threatened his friends.

 

Luke isn't angry about his friends, he's angry that the two people he trusted most had lied to him. Vader told him to search his feelings and Luke realizes that they were correct. He just doesn't understand why. That is why he kept saying, "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" throughout the escape from Bespin and even says "Father" when Vader reaches out to him via the Force. This is what sets the stage for his anger in ROTJ, because he was lied to. Not about what happened to his friends. When he questions Yoda for confirmation, he is angry at being lied to and about the whole unfortunate aspect.

Doesn't change anything. Luke Skywalker is based on George Lucas and his whole conflict with his father, about his future. So whenever we saw Luke and Owen argue about Luke's chores and his desire to leave and forge his own destiny, those are based on his own feelings. Lucas was putting himself into those scenes.

Because he wasn't pinned down by a weapon that would kill him, wielded by a person who was about to kill him. I point a gun at you and you are unarmed, you're helpless. I throw the gun down, you're no longer helpless. If you and I both have a gun, then neither of us has an advantage over the other and we could kill each other.

That's not fanfic. That comes from the script, the novelization and the story meetings. In the script, Obi-wan even says that Luke is angry about being lied to.

OBI-WAN: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. I don't blame you for being angry. If I was wrong in what I did, it certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened to your father was my fault."

And before that, there is the gleeful attitude that he has at being sentenced to the Sarlaac which goes against how a Jedi should behave.

LUKE: "You should have bargained, Jabba. That's the last mistake you'll ever make."

Jabba cackles evilly at this. As the guards drag the prisoners from the throne room, a loud cheer rises from the crowd. Leia and Chewie exchange concerned looks, but Luke Skywalker, Jedi warrior, cannot suppress a smile.

 

I'm not trying to change anything, if anything you're currently trying to "change" reality by stating that a director is an actor in a film he is not.

Unarmed and helpless are NOT THE SAME THING.


The term you're looking for might be "disadvantaged."

...And then it was cut from the script and completely hidden in the scene? Luke's anger is at Vader/Palpatine threatening his friends. THAT is what brings him to the brink of the dark side.

 

I didn't say that at all. I said that the director directs his/her actors on how to act out a scene and gives them dialogue that reflects their feelings.

So why doesn't Vader do anything other than lay there helpless? Why doesn't he defend himself against Luke? He has the Force, why doesn't he push Luke away with the Force? Or choke him. Or yank his Lightsaber from his hand like he did with Han's blaster. Vader was helpless. We know that Vader can do it.







Why doesn't he do any of this to Luke if he isn't helpless?

I didn't say that Luke was on the dark side. I said that Luke has anger in his heart because he was lied to. He only lashes out with his anger when his friends are threatened. There's a difference. As to that dialogue, yes, it was cut, but it also shows Lucas and Kasdan's intent that Luke was angry when he confronts the Jedi about their deception. That the outcome of his fight with Vader had left him stronger, but also left him with anger.

 

Because Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke.

 

It isn't about trying to kill Luke. It is about defending himself. If he wasn't helpless, he could have done any one of those things in order to stop Luke from killing him and thus not making him helpless. He can defend himself without killing Luke.

 

George Lucas is not a character in SW. He's not in the films.

Are you blatantly ignoring my statment, and refusing to admit that unarmed and helpless have different meanings?

This is unarmed:


This is helpless:

Cut dialogue was cut for a reason. One can argue Luke's anger was the consummation of all his experiences, including Vader's troops murdering his foster parents. Obi-Wan lying to him is minor in comparison. Nor is it ever tied to him choking the Gamorreans. That's just more fanfic.

 

Luke Skywalker is based off of him. He even admitted it. And he is in the film.

You're the one who is ignoring that Vader does nothing to defend himself while he is laying there. If he wasn't helpless, why doesn't he do anything to change his situation? If he was not helpless, by your assertion, then he should have jumped up, snatched Luke's saber out of his hand and beat him with it. So why does he lay there like he is helpless?

Not fanfic. A lie is a lie. If you are lied to, no matter how infinitesimal, it it still a lie and worthy of getting angry. The dialogue was cut for pacing reasons. It still reflects the intent of that scene.

 

And this cameo character stated Darth Vader is helpless, when?

So you think unarmed and helpless are the same thing?

If so the dialogue from ESB or ROTJ might have included Yoda actually lying. The lie was Obi-Wan's mistake, it wasn't Yoda's place to correct it.

 

Quit shifting goal posts.

Yes, since Lucas makes that distinction in the films.

He does by not telling Luke that Darth Vader is his father at any point in TESB. It is a lie of omission which is a lie, no matter how much you want it to be otherwise.

How do we know that this was all Obi-wan's fault? Yoda states to Obi-wan in ROTS, "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader". There's that point of view. Gone, yet, he is still standing there. He's still Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is just a name, but Yoda talks about points of view. Just like Qui-gon did and just as Obi-wan does.

 

You said:

Then you went on to say he appears in the films as that blue guy. So when does that blue guy states Vader was helpless?

Then explain this:

It's a lie like "Hot Wheels" are cars. If you pretend enough, it's real.

"I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

"Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete."

Everyone in the film seems in agreement about Obi-Wan's failure.

 

You do know what a metaphor is?

That never happened in ROTJ, so it has no bearing on the discussion.

Lies of omission are real. A lie of omission would be, "I cheated on my girlfriend", but the omission was that it was her sister.

That's shifting goalposts again. I asked how is it Obi-wan's fault that he lied to Luke? Yoda is just responsible here as he is. I never said anything about training Anakin.

 

Do you know what a kangaroo is?

That never happened in ROTJ, so it has no bearing on the discussion.
[/quote]

You're brain is oozing out of your ears right now eh.

...so are Hot Wheels.

No you said:

Ahh, but cut lines from the script and comments from the media that never happened in the film have bearing when they serve your narrative...

 

You're not as funny as you like to think you are.

Are you even trying to debate or are you trying out your stand-up routine? Lies of omission are every bit as serious as a straight up lie. I can't help it if you have trouble comprehending this.

In response to you saying...

I wasn't talking about anything other than that. I said that how do we know that it was all Obi-wan's fault that he lied to Luke. Yoda is as equally to blame when he said that Anakin is gone and consumed by Vader. Yoda is just as guilty as Obi-wan for perpetuating that lie and it is his place to tell Luke the truth, but doesn't and instead continues to use the lie of omission.

 

Then you probably shouldn't have said:

Now explain this:



Is this unarmed Obi-Wan....helpless? He seems to somehow be able to resist being killed despite being relieved of his weapon.

 

No, you should pay attention to the discussion.

I'm sorry, where does this happen in ROTJ? Where does Vader do that to Luke? That would be some trick considering he has one hand. Stop shifting goalposts or better yet, stopping using the, "Hey, look over there" argument. BTW, Obi-wan still has a weapon and both hands.



In ROTJ, Vader has one hand and is laying there helpless to stop Luke from killing him. The fact that he doesn't get up until after Luke is unarmed and himself now helpless, is quite telling.

 

You said being unarmed means your helpless; I've provided several real world and SW scenarios where that theory is disproven. ROTJ and ROTS occur in the same fictional universe; you can't apply an absurd fallacy to one and not the other 6 films. Instead, confront the shameful reality that your wrong and your argument is ridiculous.

 

And I've pointed out that the films show us that when someone is literally disarmed, they're helpless. Vader is burning up on Mustafar with three limbs missing. He's helpless against Obi-wan. He never does anything other than burn up and then crawl up the lava bank. When Luke cuts his hand off, Vader lays there helpless. He never makes a move to stop Luke from trying to kill him. He never uses the Force against Luke. Vader cuts Luke's hand off and he is helpless against him. He can only fall to his death. He never tries to use the Force to reach for his blaster. Anakin's right forearm is cut off and he is helpless, like Obi-wan, against Dooku. Anakin cuts off Dooku's hands and he is helpless before Anakin. When Mace loses his hand, he's helpless against Palpatine.

When Luke faces the Rancor, he is not helpless because he is not injured. Same with Anakin and Obi-wan against the Acklay, the Nexu and the Reek. Luke is helpless against the Wampa at first, since he cannot reach his Lightsaber and barely summons it to his hand. He is capable of turning his moment of helpless and being unarmed around. When Obi-wan is hanging above the shaft, he is helpless at first and then he remembers Qui-gon's saber is turns it around. Same with Grievious where he has no weapon and remembers the fallen blaster.

There's a pattern in there. Lucas did all of this intentionally. He's showing us that when a Jedi or a Sith is injured, they're helpless and unarmed. He shows us that killing in these moments define the good and evil between the Jedi and the Sith. When a Jedi has not lost their limbs and is fortunate enough to have a Lightsaber or a blaster that they can get a hold of, then they are not helpless and no longer unarmed.

And as to your real world scenario, show me one where the guy who overpowers his opponent does so with one hand and no legs, while being on fire. Or he does it with one handed without being on fire and with two legs.