Obi-Wan partly to blame for Anakins fall???

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Daniel, Apr 8, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    So I'm doing my annual Star Wars Marathon and I'm watching TPM and ATOC to get ready for ROTS. And something dawns on me...

    In TPM Obi-Wan thinks it's foolish to train Anakin to be a Jedi and sides w/ the Jedi Council.

    Qui-Gon dies and Obi-Wan promises to train Anakin, but still he thinks "The boy is dangerous"

    Now for 10 years Obi-Wan is:

    "Overly Critical", "Doesn't listen". Esentially Obi-Wan tries to keep Anakin on a tight leash. Anakin is angered and offended and Rebels.

    So what do you think???
  2. jangoisadrunk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2005
    star 4
    Love the sig, Daniel. Yeah for gushers!

    Obi-Wan definately did contribute to Anakin's fall, as did many others. Thats what makes it so tragic for me. Anakin (or Vader, for that matter) is not that bad a guy. He was dealt a crappy set of cards for sure (slave, mom dies, loves Padme--Jedi can't marry, Obi-Wan is a buttknocker, etc...). He never really had a chance, especially with Palpatine pulling the strings behind the scenes.
  3. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    In a way, though the blame of his actions still ultimately falls on Anakin's shoulders. He still made the choice to become dark when he didn't have to. Plenty of people have suffered equally horrible pasts to rise above.

    The sad thing about Obi Wan and Anakin is that they are actually very similar people at their cores, both vulnerable to the point where they hide their true selves deep down and put on a facade for others to see. The big difference between the two of them is that where Obi Wan displays a calm, collected Jedi, Anakin covers up his insecurity with rash, hot-headed, arrogant swagger. The real tragedy is not simply the breakdown of their friendship but the loss of what they never really had. There are alot of points where Obi Wan has a chance to emotionally connect with Anakin, but allows his arrogance, or more likely, his dependence on Jedi teaching, to override his gut instinct, and the moment is more or less lost. In the end, I think that's really what allows Palpatine to wedge himself between them so easily and split them apart.
  4. Sith-Jedi-Master Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2004
    star 4
    i think that anakin is to blame for he downfall, he did not like obiwan because he tought that he was holding him back...with palpatine alway talking to ankain and putting influence on him...it was only a matter of time

    but anakin made the choice and he had to stick with it
  5. Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2000
    star 1
    If I were to adopt a child and that child grows up to be the next Adolph Hitler then to say I'm partly to blame for it is an understatement. Regardless while Obi-Wan has his role in this I think the Jedi most to blame (excluding Palpatine, but that's a different thread) is Qui-Gon. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda thought that it was a good idea to train Anakin, but Qui made it so. If my mentor/father who lay dying in my arms told me to take on the role of Master for Hitler II then I would do it. Obi was not qualified to have an apprentice so forcing him into the role is a an accident looking for a place to happen.
  6. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    I think Obi Wan was a fairly decent teacher; I think if he failed Anakin at all, it was more as a friend and father figure than anything else. Anakin desperately needed an emotional center, and Obi Wan wasn't willing to take the risk. Thus, starved for the affection he craves, Anakin goes off and searches for psychological support in other places, i.e. Palpatine. Given this dilemma, I don't think anything Obi Wan could have done would have stopped Anakin from turning. Anakin was emotionally unstable, and he had spent the last thirteen years of his life under the influence of a Sith Lord who had become as much a soothing paternal figure to him as Obi Wan. Maybe if Anakin had been trained outside of the Council, or just away from Coruscant, that might have helped. Getting him the heck away from Palpatine was step one. But that doesn't promise that Anakin would have developed into a psychological stronger person, so I think he would still be at risk for the dark side.

    Basically, what it comes down to, IMO, either Anakin should never have been trained to be a Jedi, or Obi Wan needed to have a more emotionally intimate relationship with him. Anakin in AOTC is in many ways the little boy he was in TPM, simply because there are issues the Jedi don't feel need addressing or simply don't realize they exist. After all, how many young padawans come into the Order with the emotional baggage of losing a mother, being a slave, and having a history of casual killing?
  7. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    In NO way, shape, or form is Obi Wan to blame for Anakin's fall. The only person you can blame is Anakin. He made the choices. He chose to leave his mom behind and join the Jedi. He chose to kill the Tusken Raiders. He chose to disobey the Jedi and marry Padme. He was the one who made wrong choices. So he didn't want him to be trained. Is that bad? Anakin's future was clouded by darkness. With that much power, it would be bad if he fell to the dark side. See Episodes 4-6.;)Because Obi Wan believed he was "...dangerous"? Its the truth. Look what Anakin does! He helps to wipe out the Jedi! For ten years he is "Overly Critical", "Doesn't listen"? Consider the source! Anakin Skywalker is a whiny brat, who complains when he doesnt get his way. He is so egotistical, that he thinks he is beyong Obi Wan. "In some ways...I'm ahead of him." Hes mad that Obi doesn't listen? Why should Obi listen to his padawan? He listens to his advice, but he won't and souldn't obey Anakin. This is in no way Obi or anyone's fault. Anakin is to blame.
  8. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    It's all Anakin's choice. Yoda didn't think Anakin should be trained either back in TPM. In AOTC there seem to be doubts already about the Prophecy.

    It all falls on Anakin's shoulders, he's still tragic but, he could have made the choice to destroy the Sith instead of join them and destroy the Jedi Knights. Obi-Wan did nothing to blame about his fall, Anakin's just overly arrogant and needs to learn to take criticisim.
  9. Cyber_Jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Its not obi's fault no matter who trained him he was gona become a sith. It was all forseen by sidious "we will watch your career with great interest".
  10. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    I think that Obi-wan is to blame to a certain extent and so is the Council. Remember what Qui-gon told Anakin, "your focus determines your reality?" I think we're finding out exactly what this means. It was only with the greatest reluctance that Council allowed Obi-wan to train Anakin, and the only reasone Obi-wan took Anakin as his Padawan was because it was Qui-gon Jinn's dying wish. Neither Obi-wan or the Jedi Council trusted Anakin, and this is reflected in how Obi-wan treats him. He doesn't trust Anakin and this lack of trust gives Anakin a sense of frustration and resentment toward Obi-wan.
  11. yoda_1987 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Directly, Anakin Skywalker is to be blamed for his fall. Indirectly, I believe that Qui, Obi, the Council and Padme, should be blamed.

    First of all, I just want to make sure that all you people realize that individuals make decisions for themselves. So, in this case, Anakin is to be blamed for his fall and the massacre of all Jedis.

    Second, Qui is to be blamed because he completely disregarded the Councils decision about the fate of Anakin.

    Third, Obi is to be blamed for Anakin's fall indirectly too, because he did kind of treat Anakin unfairly. However, like someone said, some other people have it worst then others, and yet they can fully become a good person.

    Fourth, it was the Council's fault as well because they should have been the ones to train Anakin, despite Jedi Orders. Maybe they could've kept Anakin to become part of the Sith.

    Lastly, Padme is to be blamed, because she knew that jedis cannot love or be married to someone.

    Anakin Skywalker has 100 percent responsibility for his fall to the Sith!
  12. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    I blame George Lucas! [face_laugh]


    Seriously,

    I think Obi-wan blames HIMSELF as well. It is clear from the Phantom Menance he adopted Qui-gons view...without retaining the wisdom that Qui-gon gave him credit for.

    He wasn't as good as teacher of the younglings as Yoda was. And he admits that many years later. The councils knee-jerk reaction to Qui-gons death also dealt Anakin a blow.
  13. Daniel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 1999
    star 1
    Chaotic_Serenity, Sith-Jedi-Master,

    EXCELLENT. Obi-Wan, because of his in experience as a Jedi probably knew how technically to train, but he wasn't the emotional support that Anakin needed. This left an opening for Palpatine to manipulate Anakin toward the Darkside.

    Droid,

    Good stuff, Obi-Wan was a brand new Jedi-Knight w/ NO experience in training Jedi.

    ObiWanistheOne and Others,

    I should have stated the question, "Partly Responsible". You are correct in that the responsibility falls entirely on Anakin's shoulders. Even if you are responsible for the decisions you make, there are influence that can make some choices (even bad choices) LOOK more desirable. So we DO have some influence to those we are responsible for (the boss gets blamed if the plan goes bad).

    Me and Chancellor_Ewok see Eye-to-Eye :D
    Though I don't have a real firm commitment to the idea, I wanted to see what my fellow Gushers think...

    Fourth, it was the Council's fault as well because they should have been the ones to train Anakin, despite Jedi Orders. Maybe they could've kept Anakin to become part of the Sith.


    EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, more good stuff from Yoda.

    There is one thing though. It was important for Anakin to be trained. He did eventually bring balance to the Force, in that Anakin was truely the only one powerful enough (or lucky enough) to kill Plapatine. Luke was in NO WAY in a league capable of killing Palpatine. If Anakin wasn't trained, the Galaxy would probably be under the influence of the Sith for a loooonnnngg time.
  14. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    Me and Chancellor_Ewok see Eye-to-Eye
    Though I don't have a real firm commitment to the idea, I wanted to see what my fellow Gushers think...


    Fourth, it was the Council's fault as well because they should have been the ones to train Anakin, despite Jedi Orders. Maybe they could've kept Anakin to become part of the Sith.


    I think in a way it was the Council's fault. As I said in my last post, it was only with reluctance that they allowed Anakin's training to go forward, but they didn't think that training Anakin was a good idea because of the age at which he came to the Order and niether did Obi-wan, who has admitted as much. In other words both the Council and Anakin's own Master were afraid he would fail maybe even saw to it on a subconscious level that he would fail by denying him the emotional support he needed the most difficult and dangerous phase of his training.
  15. Master_Win-Dex Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Ok i think that maby Jinn may be partly to blame for anakins fall because even though Jinn knew he was the chosen one he went against the council and Obi knew that the boy was danger when he saw him. So thats what i think but i would have to watch the movies again and see if this is true but i think it is so if you think something different let me know cuz i would like to know too.
  16. Siri_Ruane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, I think he is partially to blame.

    Anakin was special. He started training at a very late age with a not-too-Jedi-like background. Obi-Wan was a normal Master, but I don't think Anakin was not a normal Padawan. In all the literature I've read and from just endless nights staring up at the cieling, contemplating, I think I can conclude that Obi-Wan didn't want to admit Anakin was special... I partially don't blame him, either, because the kid had a big enough head as it was. Obi-Wan taught Anakin as he would a normal Padawan and Anakin didn't like it. Anakin thought he was holding him back while Obi-Wan was just trying to treat him fairly, like any other Padawan.
  17. Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 6
    I sort of see what you're saying and not I'm sure I completely agree. From a technical standpoit, Obi-wan was an excellent Master, but it never occured to him to give Anakin the kind of emotional support that he needed to adjust to life in the Temple. Both the TPM novel and The Approaching Storm mention this, that Anakin feels that he can't simply confide in Obi-wan as a friend because Obi-wan tries to be too much of an authority figure.
  18. steverodgers801 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005
    star 1
    Obi Wan doesnt know how to deal with Anakin emotions since he was not raised from birth as a Jedi and does not understand how a padawan should behave. Anakin is far more attuned to the force and wants to do his own thing. Obi wan is not ready to handle him. I believe that if Qui-gon lived he would have been much better at dealing with anakin
  19. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    I just finished reading The Making of ROTS and Anakin's fall is really due to his greed of having all his loved ones staying alive and not letting them go, first it's his surrogate father Qui-Gon-Jin who dies, then it's his mother Shmi, and now Padme, and then he has to live with believing that his child is dead too! He was to young being seperated from his mother, who he missed so much.
  20. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    I supose that Obi-Wan had something to do with it, when Anakin needed a friend and a father figure after he was detatched from his mother and had lost Qui-Gon, he got Obi-wan, a critical mentor. Maybe Anakin wouldn't of had to go looking for love someplace else, looking for it from Padme 10 years later. Maybe that's why he was always dreaming about her, someone that showed him love, that which he didn't get from Obi-Wan all those 10 years. Obi-Wan vowed to Qui-gon he would train the boy but probably still believed the boy to be dangerous, Obi-Wan was very hard on him, because he didn't believe in him, he didn't believe in the chosen one!!
  21. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    I believe Anakin would not have been seduced to the dark side had Qui-Gon lived. Ob1 and the rest of the Jedi Council allowed tradition and custom to take precedence over the preparation of the Chosen One. Anakin needed special attention and training but since the Council did not fully believe that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One or fully understand what the Chosen One was supposed to do, they did not provide that special attention. Qui-Gon, however, was conviced Anakin was the chosen one and he would have taken more of a personal interest in his training. Because of his wisdom, he would also have been more of a father to Anakin than OB1 could have been. Although Qui-Gon "defied" the Council because of his belief systems, his teaching styles and methods would have provided Anakin with the positive reinforcement he needed which most likely would have prevented him from turning.
  22. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    He would have fallen faster because of Qui-Gon actually.
  23. Boola Cronk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 1999
    star 2
    And why is that? OB1 made some glaring mistakes in Anakin's training, those of which he admits to in ANH. It is evident by the actions of Qui-Gon in the films and in the books that he would have been a better mentor than OB1. Hence, the reason why they focused on his beliefs and teachings in TPM. Yes Anakin may have defied the Council more like Qui-Gon did but his attitude would have been different. Plus Qui-Gon was a maverick and was not into the whole political scene either; and therefore would have dissuaded Anakin with strong conviction that he should not spending alot of time of Palpatine. Qui-Gon's influence over Anakin would have been much stronger than OB1's because he was not overly critical of him. For that reason alone, Anakin would have respected Qui-Gon more and would have heeded his wisdom and warnings.
  24. die3601017042257 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2005
    i dont think obi-wan is to blame for his fall. i think it was qui-gons fault because he made ob-wan promise that he would train him. and he died straight after obi said yes so he had no time to protest. plus the fact the he was dead so he had no real choice...
  25. LazyJC22 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Obi-Wan admits his fault in ROTJ, "I thought I could teach him as well as Yoda... I was wrong."

    I think he realizes that he's as much at fault as anyone outside of Anakin himself. Of course, you could blame Qui-Gon for making him promise to train Anakin when Obi-Wan was not yet a Master and probably not ready to take on an apprentice. Heck, you could blame Yoda for saving Obi-Wan and Anakin from Dooku. If he lets that pillar fall, the galaxy is spared a horrible future. Anakin is ultimately responsible for his decisions, but you can spread influence and blame around to many others, certainly including his teacher.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.