CT "Obi Wan taught you well..."

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by darth_mccartney, Jun 8, 2014.

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  1. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    "Obi Wan taught you well..."

    I never really thought about this line from Vader, but I got thinking yesterday...

    I assume he didn't know about the force ghosts business, did he? And if not, is Vader under the impression that Luke had spent a lot of time with Obi Wan training and stuff prior to his death in ANH?

    Because Luke was a relative walkover in TESB but come ROTJ he's a pretty accomplished Jedi. But Vader knows Obi Wan to be dead. So if Vader knows that, and we can assume that no one but Yoda and Luke know that the whole ghost thing is possible, how does Vader think Luke got so good between TESB and ROTJ?

    Hope all that made sense! haha
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  2. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I think it's more about Luke's ability to resist the dark side.

    I'll post a section from the script.

    Vader says the line after Luke turns off his lightsaber and cools off.

    So he's remarking on Obi-Wan teaching Luke the fundamentals of being a Jedi. Obi-Wan wouldn't need to be alive or come back as a Force ghost for that.
  3. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That line was always weird to me as well. Wish they included the Yoda dialogue with the Emperor from the ROTJ novel.
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  4. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2

    What dialogue would that be? Sounds interesting!
  5. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    Cheers, that does actually make sense! :)
  6. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    'Tell me, young Skywalker,' the Emperor said when he saw Luke's first struggle had taken its course. 'Who has been involved in your training until now?' The smile was thin, open-mouthed, hollow.

    Luke was silent. He would reveal nothing.

    'Oh, I know it was Obi-Wan Kenobi at first,' the wicked ruler continued, rubbing his fingers together as if trying to remember. Then pausing, his lips creased into a sneer. 'Of course, we are familiar with the talent Obi-Wan Kenobi had, when it came to training Jedi.' He nodded politely in Vader's direction, indicating Obi-Wan's previous star pupil. Vader stood without responding, without moving.

    Luke tensed with fury at the Emperor's defamation of Ben - though, of course, to the Emperor it was praise. And he bridled even more, knowing the Emperor was so nearly right. He tried to bring his anger under control, though, for it seemed to please the malevolent dictator greatly.

    Palpatine noted the emotions on Luke's face and chuckled. 'So, in your early training you have followed your father's path, it would seem. But alas, Obi-Wan is now dead, I believe; his elder student, here, saw to that-' again, he made a hand motion toward Vader. 'So tell me, young Skywalker - who continued your training?'

    That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.

    The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. 'There was one called ... Yoda. An aged Master Jed ... Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then.'

    Luke flashed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself-to see all, to show nothing; only to be.

    'This Yoda,' the Emperor mused. 'Lives he still?'

    Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was.

    Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.

    'Ah,' cried Emperor Palpatine. 'He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you.' He beamed.

    Luke wilted - but a moment. In the very faltering, he found strength. Thus had Ben and Yoda both instructed him: when you are attacked, fall. Let your opponent's power buffet you as a strong wind topples the grass. In time, he will expend himself, and you will still be upright.

    The Emperor watched Luke's face with cunning. 'I'm sure Yoda taught you to use the Force with great skill.'
  7. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    Cool dialogue. Plus it shows off Sidious's powers at mind reading. Would have been great to have in the movie!
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Vader uses the same line in TESB:

    "Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."
  9. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That one made sense.
  10. Django Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Unlikely but may be Anakin's anger at Obi-Wan now he's dead has decreased and that with his love for Luke, he see's his hatred for Obi-Wan is now invalid. Seemingly to Anakin as Obi-Wan had cared for his son and had begun his Jedi training he owed him and the line "Obi-Wan has taught you well" was mean't as a compliment to them both.
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  11. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    That's actually an interesting thought, Django Fett.

    We know Vader was thinking wistfully of Obi-Wan when he said "Obi-Wan once thought as you do".

    Maybe you're on to something.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jun 9, 2014
  12. rdhight Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 3
    I like the idea that Vader was, understandably, a bit preoccupied with Obi-Wan. Once he knew that Luke was Obi-Wan's pupil, he didn't look for other masters; Luke's relationship with Obi-Wan become the defining one as far as Vader was concerned.

    I think in the LU, at least some of the time, Palpatine was soon satisfied that the Jedi hunt had gone far enough, but Vader insisted on continuing, not because he wanted to wipe out any old Jedi, but because he hadn't found his old master.
  13. Thuro Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 4
    Interesting. Yes that makes sense.
  14. AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 3
    I like the idea that they were unaware that Yoda was still alive. Although back in the days before the PT and the EU, I always thought that Yoda was the only Jedi master who trained potential Jedi and he was always hidden away on Dagobah and no one other than the Jedi knew he existed.
  15. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    Darth Vader: "My Master tells me that his little green friend has taught you well."
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  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I liked the bonus scene in the ROTJ novelization between "You no longer need those" and "In time, you will call me Master."

    It has the Emperor remember Yoda, and deduce he might have trained Luke:

    "Tell me, young Skywalker," the Emperor said when he saw Luke's first struggle had taken its course. "Who has been involved in your training until now?" The smile was thin, open mouthed, hollow.
    Luke was silent. He would reveal nothing.
    "Oh, I know it was Obi-Wan Kenobi at first," the wicked ruler continued, rubbing his fingers together as if trying to remember. Then pausing, his lips creased into a sneer. "Of course, we are familiar with the talent Obi-Wan Kenobi had, when it came to training Jedi." He nodded politely in Vader's direction, indicating Obi-Wan's previous star pupil. Vader stood without responding, without moving.
    Luke tensed with fury at the Emperor's defamation of Ben - though, of course, to the Emperor it was praise. And he bridled even more, knowing the Emperor was so nearly right. He tried to bring his anger under control though, for it seemed to please the malevolent dictator greatly.
    Palpatine noted the emotions on Luke's face and chuckled. "So, in your early training you have followed your father's path, it would seem. But alas - Obi-Wan is now dead, I believe; his elder student, here, saw to that -" again, he made a hand motion toward Vader. "So tell me, young Skywalker - who continued your training?"
    That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.
    The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. "There was one called ... Yoda. An aged Master Jed ... Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then."
    Luke flushed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself - to see all, to show nothing; only to be.
    "This Yoda," the Emperor mused. "Lives he still?"
    Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.
    "Ah," cried Emperor Palpatine. "He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you." He beamed.
    Luke wilted - but a moment. In the very faltering, he found strength. Thus had Ben and Yoda both instructed him: when you are attacked, fall. Let your opponent's power buffet you as a strong wind topples the grass. In time, he will expend himself, and you will still be upright.
    The Emperor watched Luke's face with cunning. "I'm sure Yoda taught you to use the Force with great skill."
    The taunt had the desired effect - Luke's face flushed, his muscles flexed.
    He saw the Emperor actually lick his lips at the sight of Luke's reaction. Lick his lips and laugh from the bottom of his throat, from the bottom of his soul.
    Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn't seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
    Luke saw fear in the Emperor - fear of Luke. Fear of Luke's power, fear that this power could be turned on him - on the Emperor - in the same way that Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor - and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor's nakedest self.
    With sudden absolute calm, Luke stood upright. He stared directly into the malign ruler's hood.
    Palpatine said nothing for a few moments, returning the young Jedi's gaze, assessing his strengths and weaknesses. He sat back at last, pleased with this first confrontation. "I look forward to completing your training, young Skywalker. In time, you will call me Master."
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  17. solo77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 5
    ^ Force Smuggler had already posted that [face_plain]
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  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Oops. Didn't spot it because it was in the same font as the main thread.
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  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Don't worry about it. Pulled it from an E-book thing and everything was spaced.......

    Besides with it being such a great scene it deserves to be seen again.
    Last edited by Force Smuggler, Jun 10, 2014
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  20. Redimet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2014
    star 4
    Did they film this scene? Because if they did this I would be okay with them adding in.
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  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It was never filmed. It was only included for the commercial release of the screenplay and the novelization. The reason Vader thinks its Obi-wan who did his training is because he put two and two together. He knows that Obi-wan was aboard the Millennium Falcon which came from Tatooine, which is where Leia had gone to when he captured her. He knows that droids were used to hide the Death Star plans. He caught a glimpse of Luke as the blast doors were closing and knows that the Rebel pilot who destroyed the Death Star is named Luke Skywalker, his son. He has assumed that Obi-wan has not only been watching over his son, but has trained him. Since Yoda has not shown himself, he and Palpatine assume the Grand Master is dead.
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  22. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2014
    star 4
    Vader's comment about Obi-Wan having taught Luke well stems from ignorance. Vader does not know Yoda still existed and trained Luke. The only way Vader would know is if her telepathically read Luke's Mind or could reach his feelings about Yoda, in the same way he did to learn about Leia. However, I doubt Luke was thinking about Yoda, once his friends are in danger, its all about them. Besides, Vader actually encounted Kenobi on the first Death Star and thus knew definitively that he was Luke's master.
  23. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3

    I think both of the quotes the two of you posted need some context.

    In the one from Empire, before Vader says what he says about Obi Wan, Vader has maneuvered Luke so that he (Luke) falls into the Carbonite Chamber. Vader then says all too easy, maybe you're not as powerful as the Emperor has foreseen (not exact quote but close enough). As Vader has his back turned delivering these lines, Luke force jumps out of the chamber. Vader turns around to his surprise that Luke got out. Luke recovers his light saber and continues the fight. So then Vader delivers the Obi Wan line. Within this context it sounds more like that Luke was able to control his fear and think on his feet in a tight situation (getting out of the carbon chamber). Then adding a little poke at Luke that he needs to go a step further, that Obi Wans teachings weren't going to help Luke kill Vader.

    In the Return of the Jedi one, the context is much similar. Before the scene where the above part of the script was copy/pasted, Luke and Vader are engaged in battle and Luke gives Vader a nice kick to the chest sending Vader down a flight a stairs. The Emperor delivers his line, to which it makes Luke pause and step back. Then Vader delivers the Obi Wan line. Again within the context of the action they were in before the line, it seems to point at that Vader was impressed with Luke's over all ability (the fact he kicked Vaders ass down the Stairs).

    So it's my opinion Vader was talking about Luke's over all ability, just not one aspect of it. That includes his ability to resist the Dark side, as well as his ability to fight, and control himself in a frantic situation.

    As for why Vader says it's Obi Wan, well it's because they (Vader and the Emperor) are assuming that Obi Wan had trained Luke for some time before the events of ANH. Maybe not since childhood, but, long enough to get some pretty good knowledge and training in. More than likely they also assumed that Luke just expanded on that training himself since the years after Obi Wan's death. However, the content that was cut out of the movie about Yoda is also interesting. I for one though like that it was left out. It keeps the Sith in the Dark all the more about Luke.
    Last edited by mikeximus, Jun 24, 2014
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  24. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    One line that is perhaps overlooked.

    In ESB, when Vader is talking to holo-Palpatine he says:
    "He is just a boy, Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
    Even at that point it seems that neither Vader nor Palpatine considered that Yoda or any other Jedi was still alive.

    In ANH, Vader is pretty quick in accepting that Obi-Wan is still around and rebukes Tarkin when he says "Surely he must be dead by now."
    Vader had not been shown Obi-Wan corpse and thus when faced with evidence suggesting his old master was still around, he accepted it.
    Yet with Yoda neither he nor Palpatine even seem to consider it.
    In ESB Palpatine contacts Vader because he is sensing a great distrubance in the Force, Luke. I gather that this is something recent.
    So Luke is suddenly growing a lot stronger but Obi-Wan has been dead for three years. How can this be?
    If Obi-Wan trained Luke before ANH, wouldn't Vader and Palpatine have sensed that? Even during ANH, Vader only senses Luke when he is tapping into the Force right in front of him.
    Sure, they can figure that Obi-Wan has been with Luke for some time. But after his death, Luke has no one to train him. And yet he suddenly gains in power over a very short period of time. They missed Obi-Wan, who was Obi-Wan close to? Yoda. They know that Yoda has not been confirmed as dead. Sure there has been no sight or sense of him but given what is going on with Luke I think the possibility would have occured to them.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
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  25. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    I guess they figured the odds of both Yoda and Obi-Wan having survived that long in hiding were pretty slim, especially given that Yoda would be pushing 900.

    I believe there's a line in an early draft of the RotJ script where Palpatine figures out that Yoda must have been training Luke, but it was cut.
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