Saga "Obi-Wan...there's good in him...I know, I know there is......still."

I've posted this elsewhere, but I think it should've been Obi-Wan who professed faith in there still being good in Anakin. Then, after trying to redeem Anakin and failing, he comes around to the belief that Vader is beyond saving. That would've made Anakin's eventual turning back to the light side in ROTJ more powerful.

By contrast, having Padme saying "there is still good in him" just feels lazy...it's just taking one of Luke's lines and putting into another family member's mouth.

 

Well maybe baby Luke was so strong in the force that he was speaking through Padme?

 

Right around the time she decided that Anakin would make a good lover. I think Padme needed a sassy BFF to set her straight.

 

That would've made the movie even more awful/awesome.

 

"She's "lost the will to live"? What is your degree in poetry? You sorry bunch of hippies! For God' sake, don't use the billions of dollars of medical equipment around us! Why don't we just get down on our knees and pray!?! We don't have knees.

Adalia Edit: That Word is NOT acceptable here, this is your First and FINAL warning, do not use it on these Forums.

 

I appreciate your perspective, and believe it would have been a compelling means to allow the redemption to play out that way as well. But for me, as you can observe from my OP for this thread, Padme's faith in Anakin allows us to discover the source for Luke from which it came. Since the saga is told in reverse, I feel a delight to discover this, and find it more compelling, complex and rich that this thread of belief has spanned so long, waiting for its potential to manifest and reawaken The Chosen One, to his ultimate purpose...all done via the one (Padme) he probably hurt the most, and had the least reason to forgive him.

 

I've seen worse excuses to post this!

 

I want Dr. Ball to be a central figure in the ST.

 

This.

It's not a particularly well handled scene at all, and further diminishes a character who was established in TPM and at least the first act of AOTC to be strong, independent and in control of her own destiny.

It doesn't make sense on several levels.

1) What does 'lost the will to live' mean as a cause of death? Has she forcibly stopped herself respiring?
2) If there is still "good in him", why has she lost 'the will to live'?
3) Does the fact that she's just delivered her children and that they'll need raising and hiding/protecting from the terrible person that is their father not give her the will to live?

Ignoring the mechanics of her actual death, unless we consider that she's suffering from clinical postpartum depression the film essentially suggests that she's basically too weak a character to raise her children without Anakin at her side, so why bother? No husband anymore, so what's the point of living, right?

Insulting.

(obviously postpartum depression is a serious mental condition and shouldn't be downplayed)

Also I'd dispute that there was still 'good in him', but that's a different discussion for a different thread about how I detest the idea of the Saga being the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

 

Simple answer: Luke said these words first. So Lucas made Padme say them to fit the saga.

 

From the practical perspective, that is quite right, of course.

But when we delve into the Saga and begin to suspend our disbelief so that we can allow ourselves to become more fully absorbed in its creative complexity, perhaps we can entertain the possibility of other perspectives existing simultaneously as well.

 

Padme: "There's still good in him"
Just then a Force Ghost Youngling appears.
Force Ghost Youngling: "Where?!"

 

Yes and...the idea that there is some natural link between Luke's faith in his father and Padé's words in ROTS is a little ridiculous. Luke, for two thirds of the OT, is unaware that Vader is his father so the odd idea in his head of "there's still good in him" must have been very puzzling for the poor boy. It is also unnecessary because in the OT Luke sensed it in him - directly.

 

Ah, but there is a link. Luke has this unwavering love for a man he never meets until Cloud City, leaving out the EU. He has this belief that his father was a good man and someone he should not only look up to, but aspire to be like. Thus when Luke does learn the truth and it takes a while to come to the realization of what he sensed, Luke realizes that there is good in him. Padme believes it more as an act of faith, while Luke believes it because of the Force. Obi-wan has trouble seeing it because all he could sense from Anakin was the pure hatred that he had for him and the sight of the dead Jedi, paint a different perspective in him.

 

Where have you got all of that from? There's nothing from the movies that suggest Luke believed his father was a good man who should be looked up to. At the beginning of ANH he believes his father was a spice pilot.

Luke senses the good in Vader after their coming together in TESB; there is no sense in which this is an embedded a-priori belief.

 

In ANH, when Obi-wan tells Luke the truth about his father, Luke says that it was difficult to believe because he was told that his father was just a navigator, not someone who was a Jedi and fought in the Clone Wars. Luke thinks highly of his father, whereas Owen expresses concern regarding that. Obi-wan refers to him as a good friend and Luke later says that he wants to be a Jedi, like his father. Something that echoes again in TESB, when Yoda asks what Luke's reasons are and Luke says that it is because of his father. He is clearly showing that he wants to be like his father, which dismays Yoda not because of what happened, but because Luke's reasons aren't as noble and selfless like they should be. When Vader brings up the subject about Anakin, Luke clearly takes issue with Vader even mentioning him.

Luke definitely had a strong feeling towards his father before finding out the truth of the matter, which is why Vader's revelation is so devastating and why Luke is left emotionally confused by the whole situation. By ROTJ, that is why he concludes that there is still good in him.

 

So..Luke gains an admiration for his father upon learning that he was a Jedi. An absent father with an heroic past... and this needs explaining? He didn't, for example, tell Obi-Wan in ANH that he wanted to be spice pilot like his father. The absent (passed) Jedi father becomes a focus of admiration for Luke.

 

It isn't about explaining anything. Lucas was making a point about the difference between Padme and Luke versus Obi-wan, which plays into the compassion and selfless love that ultimately saves Anakin. Padme never lost faith in Anakin's innate goodness, even when he attacked her and contributed to her death. She knew full well the crimes he committed as Obi-wan himself had told her, but unlike Obi-wan, that sense of betrayal was not enough for her to completely write him off. This would carry over to Luke who in spite of knowing what he had done as Vader, Luke is able to look past all of that and see the good man that is there.

 

Little did Obi-Wan realize that Padme meant Chad Vader.

 

Padme's words seem to be Lucas doing his reverse echo thing again which he likes so much. His rhyme thing with the OT. Does it make any sense? Not to me, considering what Anakin's just done to her and to the galaxy which she has so passionately tried to protect all these years.

Years later, Luke senses the good that is still in Vader, but in Padme's case the physical and emotional wounds of his heinous actions would be so fresh it seems very odd to me that she'd respond that way.

 

Not really. She loved Anakin very deeply. She had seen the good man that he was once and despite the cruelty by which he acted, she still believed that there was hope for him. It is an example of the compassionate love that she had for him. She didn't believe in absolute evil, not with him. Obi-wan had trouble with that because he saw the bodies, saw what he did and felt such anger and hatred from him. Obi-wan wrote him off because that's what the Jedi had done with the Sith. That's why she still believed in him and why Luke was right when he felt the good in him.

 

Padme may not have seen dead younglings, but I'm pretty sure she got a good feel for his anger and hatred when she and the unborn children were on the receiving end of the force choke. I guess how this is viewed comes down to perceptions and experience of human nature.

 

Not really. There are people who still believe in the good of their loved ones, even when they have done something terribly wrong. These people aren't idiots or fools. All they know is that they cannot look past their love for their loved one, regardless of their transgressions. It happens quite a bit. Some people do have their limits and essentially disown that person, but so many more don't. It all comes down to your character more than what other people perceive as right or wrong, good or evil.

 

I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that in my experience, people who have experienced trauma of that magnitude, and we're talking gas chamber levels here, generally don't go into forgiveness and benevolence mode towards the perpetrator within hours. Your experience may be different and that's obviously fine. I'm not saying it's what someone sees as good and evil, it's what someone sees as plausible when watching, that's all.

 

I have to respond to this first post on two fronts. FIrst off, I don't think Padme's declaration of "there's still good in him" speaks to her "selfless love", to me it reeks of a woman in denial, and as someone unwilling to see the man she loves as he really is. Now I know Luke eventually redeems his father, and uses the same mantra in ROTJ, but for Padme to say this at this point seems a little farfetched and absurd.

And second? She loses the will to live and dies moments later, essentially leaving her two newborns as orphans in an increasingly dangerous galaxy. To me, that's not selfless, but actually incredibly selfish. No self-respecting mother would give up so easily. Not when she clearly has two very significant reasons to live right in front of her: Luke and Leia.