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PT Obi Wans Master

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by TheCowboyBuilder, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Okay so he taught them in class. So it was outside of a MAster-padawan relationship. Like Obi-Wan said, he was an instructor.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    @darth-sinister None of that stuff is in ROTJ. What is in ROTJ is what Lucas conceived at the time and stated afterwards. Vader betrayed the Emperor because he was going to kill Luke.

    Anakin betrayed the Jedi in order to prevent Padme and their unborn child from dying.

    Vader was unable to kill Luke even though, as a Sith, he must. The final test was if he could allow Luke to be destroyed.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Whether you're in a class room setting, or you're out in the field, the Jedi Master instructs their Padawan Learner. Yoda taught the ways of the Force to the Padawans. He was the Master to all the students that he taught. Jedi Masters like Qui-gon Jinn and Depa Billaba taught their Padawans how to apply the training in the field. In "The Clone Wars", Ahsoka was Anakin's Padawan, but she already had learned from Yoda. What Anakin taught her was combat deployment and how to think creatively. Taught how to deal with impossible odds and situations, and come through it, win or lose.

    Luke is being taught how to use the Force by Yoda, just as Kanan taught Ezra. The difference is that the latter had to pull double duty like Yoda did with Dooku.

    Right, an act of compassion. That was always the case in ROTJ, long before the PT was made. Vader's ambition was stated in TESB; he wants Luke to help him overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy together as family. This is his greed. His attachment is to power. In ROTJ, Vader chooses to give all of this up in order to save Luke. He knows that by attacking Palpatine, he will die in the process and he is okay with that. He knows that he will never be Emperor, much less the true Dark Lord of the Sith. And he's okay with this. But someone else will get to live and that is his son.

    For selfish reasons. Because he cannot live without her. He is willing to damn the Jedi Order and everyone else, if it meant that he kept her around in his life.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Yes, the point was that Vader had become a monster who didn't care about anyone except for himself. He only cared about Luke inasmuch as Luke was a tool with which he could overthrow the Emperor. At the end, that changes. He cares about Luke because Luke deserves to be cared about. He stops thinking only about himself.

    From his perspective. In reality, he betrayed the Jedi over an anxious fear that was never going to come true, and only through his betrayal did it end up coming to pass--because he failed to listen to Yoda's advice. He was obsessed with keeping Padme from dying so that she could be with him forever and he would never feel alone. He had no care for what Padme actually wanted. That's why he never thought twice before destroying everything Padme cared about and believed in. He never considered there were some things Padme cared about more than her own life. He never thought about any of that because he only cared about how Padme made him feel.

    At that point, it was either Luke or him. The only way Vader was going to survive was to let the Emperor kill Luke. The Emperor was Vader's ultimate attachment, because without the Emperor, Vader is nothing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  5. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    The Matthew Stover novel of RoTS put it quite succinctly: Vader killed Padmé because when he could’ve been thinking about her and what she wanted, he was only thinking inward...and now himself is all he’d ever have.
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    There never was an indication in the OT that Vader's choices were always self serving, and that he cared about nothing and nobody else in the galaxy except himself. He declares his inability to do anything but serve his Master, due to the seductive "power" of the darkside that Anakin retains faith in even though the point was lost when Padme died exactly as he'd envisioned and hoped to prevent. (Probably because of that loss. Since recanting would force him to face what he'd done.)

    It's good that someone brought up perspective because you have to apply perspective to the notions of "selfishness" invoked by characters in the saga. Selfishness is entirely relative. A man with no responsibilities who indulges in his interests and passions in his free time is not selfish. A man who neglects certain responsibilities while following his passions is, arguably, selfish. If you have responsibilities, all other concerns, no matter how worthy or innocuous they are on their own, are demoted if not rescinded. It's discipline. Discipline does not mean avoidance of those things that are inherently wrong. It's about doing only what's needed, relative to your goals, at the expense of everything else, right or wrong.

    If that responsibility was a family, which represents a healthy normal attachment with an authentic purpose, and that person spent an inordinate amount of time away from them enjoying -racing (not inherently greedy or evil as far as I know), then he's being selfish. If that person is part of a religious order who says, your order wants you to be at this location and perform this duty but the man is worried about his family's health at that time, then his religion's elders are going to tell him that it's not the concern of the order he's part of and call him selfish on the basis that the objectives of the order are more important than his own objectives for his family, even though on their own they are totally legitimate. It's not because he's selfish that he raised a family. It;s that he didn't have the discipline to one or the other and not both.

    Padme upheld Anakin's instincts by proposing, eventually, that he should go to Tatooine where he found his mother dying just as he'd envisioned, I don't remember Padme asking Anakin to consider what she wants or what his mother wanted at that moment. It was only just too late for Anakin's instincts to have prevented his mother's violent, unnatural death.

    When the scenario arises again, Padme does not tell Anakin what she wants. She just tries to reassure him and doesn't want to compromise Anakin's duties with inordinate concern for her safety. She realises that Anakin feels he must succeed here where he failed with his mother. But there is no point where she informs Anakin that dying the way she does in Anakin's vision (which must be presumed to be as accurate as it was before and, in fact, is whenever a Jedi has a vision) is what she wants.

    At best, she tries to tell Anakin that she doesn't want him to believe his own visions. The fact that Anakin is unable to be reassured has nothing to do with selfishness. Selfish worry?

    Anxiety is Anakin's problem. The idea that anxiety only originates from selfish greed is utterly specious.

    If Padme had lived, say she fell into a coma, hers and Anakin's attachment would be as much of a problem for Palpatine as it was for the Jedi in the end. When the promised power that turning to the darkside failed to materialize, Palpatine would have immediately come into Anakin's sights. It specifically takes Luke to emerge from obscurity to provide Vader with the motivation to destroy the ideology he has clung to for decades because his attachment to Luke (the surrogate Padme) turns out to be stronger than his devotion to the darkside.
     
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Vader's choices were always self serving in the OT, long before there was a PT. Vader's ambitions come to light in TESB, when he wants to turn Luke to the dark side instead of destroy him as Palpatine wants. And that is because he wants Luke to help him take out Palpatine and rule the galaxy. That is the definition self serving interests. He doesn't want to spare Luke because this is his son, but because this is his ambition shining through. Likewise, he turns Luke over in ROTJ, for the very same reasons. Whereas the right thing to have done was to leave with him, or not turn him over at all. He even displays a willingness to kill Luke, though he struggles with doing so. He only stops being selfish at the very end.

    It's one thing to be concerned with your loved ones. The problem is to let that worry dominate every moment of every day, building towards a boiling point as it does. Which is what happens. He lets his fear of being alone dictate his actions and this results in his doing terrible things. And he isn't doing it for her, he is doing it for himself. That is what destroys them both.

    "The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52


    No, she never proposes that they go to Tatooine. He is the one who makes that decision and she chooses to support it by accompanying him, rather than stay behind.

    ANAKIN: "I know I'm disobeying my mandate to protect you, Senator... but I have to go. I have to help her."

    PADME: "I'll go with you."

    ANAKIN: "I'm sorry. I don't have a choice."

    Her cause for concern and willingness to take the risk is commendable. She acts selflessly here in trying to help Anakin. It is Anakin who is selfish here, because he was willing to shirk his responsibilities as a Jedi, in order to go to Tatooine. And does so without trying to contact Obi-wan or the Temple, as he was told to do by Obi-wan, since he knows full well that they'd tell him to stay put.
     
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  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Not a one-on-one master. He just taught a class.
    Nothing selfish about going to help someone. Padme was in no danger on Tatooine.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  9. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    He wasn’t supposed to be on Tatooine, if you remember. A desert planet harboring basically the worst the galaxy has to offer.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Not being where you are supposed to be is not necessarily selfish. It's insubordinate.

    He's protecting the Senator from the assassin that made two attempts on Coruscant (by accompanying her in secret to a secret location - her home planet[face_thinking]). Not from lowlifes who, according to TPM, avoid tangling with outlanders who may have back up and powerful friends on other systems. Particularly when they are accompanied by a Jedi.

    It's an ancient method of control. Label someone who puts what they feel compelled is the right thing to do before what others tell you, rightly or wrongly, is expected of them. My grandmother told my mother she was selfish to want to go to university on the good results she got at high school and then get a good job, because she had a widowed mother and it would be better for her if she stayed at home and got an ok job instead.

    Doing what other people want you to do all the time may make you selfless but avoiding selfishness is far more complicated than that.

    It is utterly specious to suggest that because one person is perhaps being selfless then the other person in the equation, the one whose instincts they believe it is right to support, is being selfish. It's nonsense and has no basis in reality. It's not like Anakin simply has an itching desire to visit his mother. He has dreams that he "can't explain" (fairly explicable if you supposedly think only about yourself and having your mother close to you- "Hey. Maybe it's because I'm so possessive of the mother I haven't seen or spoke to in ten years." ), and which Obi Wan tells him are normal and should pass (pity that Obi Wan didn't identify Anakin's greed/selfishness and self absorption at that juncture). But they don't.

    Anakin tells Padme he feels as if he hasn't a choice. The power that the force has given him is telling him so. Padme agrees. She doesn't just capitulate "Ok have it your way Annie".

    Willingness to be insubordinate is only "selfish" from the perspective of those that wish to control your actions for their ends. Oh you want to save your mother? What about what we want you to do? What if we effectively want you to do nothing unless we tell you to do it?

    A different word from "selfishness" is required because, for a start, it means that you have no consideration for other's needs. Anakin consistently remarks about his unsuitability to be a Jedi knight while having these impulses to follow his foresight, given to him by the force. That's enough to consider that there is a gap between the will of the force and the will of the Jedi order.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Nothing selfish about going to help someone. Padme was in no danger on Tatooine.
    Since when is not being where someone asked you to be, being selfish? Since when is helping someone who is DYING, selfish?
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    He's still a Jedi Master. That's like saying a teacher isn't a teacher because they only teach thirty students, instead of one student.

    He didn't know that. He has no clue if the assassin went to Tatooine or not. He left Coruscant before Obi-wan found out that Jango went to Kamino. He doesn't know if there were other bounty hunters out looking for her and could be on Tatooine. He doesn't know if her cover was blown and Jango had followed them to Naboo, but couldn't risk attacking yet until they had left. Anakin was gambling her safety which makes him selfish.

    Obi-wan is aware that Anakin has an emotional attachment to both Shmi and to Padme. What Obi-wan believed to be wrong with Shmi was that Anakin was being overtly anxious about his mother and not that there was anything seriously wrong here.

    Anakin always had a choice. He could choose to stay, or choose to go. And as to the Force, we don't know if it was telling him to go or not, especially since he arrives too late and takes out his negative feelings on the Tusken Raiders. This presumes that it was the will of the Force that he does that.

    Anakin was told to follow certain protocols in this matter, which he didn't. And he does so knowing full well that it could endanger his charge and could result in his expulsion from the Jedi Order.

    This again presumes that it was the will of the Force that lead Anakin to Tatooine and not his own anxieties. And what's more, you would have to assume that it was the will of the Force that he saw Padme's death, yet he follows that instinct and pays a steep price for doing so.
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    That doesn't make him an individual mentor to each student. Just like a teacher isn't automatically a mentor to every student.

    Since Padme was a Republic senator who was scheduled to be part of a vote on Coruscant, he had a huge clue that the assassin wouldn't be there.

    Yeah he does. He has the Force.

    Not much of a gamble. Not going to save his mother from torture and death would have been selfish.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Yoda was the teacher to all of the Jedi. That's the point. He was not different towards Obi-wan than he was with Mace, Ki-Adi, Plo, or any other Jedi. He didn't give them anything different from that.

    Not really. Not if Jango figured out that Dorme was a decoy and thus he wouldn't be there, he'd be on Naboo.

    And yet, neither Jedi knew that they were being tailed by Jango while chasing Zam. They were both taken by surprise.

    Ah, not true. He doesn't know if other bounty hunters and assassins are looking for her and are spread out all over the place. Including being on Tatooine.

    That would be correct if he decided to watch the podracing on Malastare, instead of helping Shmi. But instead, his duty and first priority was to guard Padme and keep her safe from the bounty hunter. The same senator who was going to vote against the Military Creation Act. Keeping her alive was more important than going to his mother. At the very least, he should have contacted the Temple or Obi-wan. But he doesn't.
     
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    If Anakin doesn't understand why he's having dreams about his mother, then he can't be considered selfish. If he doesn't know for certain, and it isn't by any means certain or even implied, that visions if this specific nature is an indicator of someone's susceptibility or proneness to the darkside. That's just unrealistically and not a credibly prohibitive attitude towards emotions.

    It can't be defined as selfish If he can't intuit the supposed motivation behind visions of his mother's death, which are prescient and accurate not because of anything Anakin does or feels, but would be considered a great gift if acted upon promptly.

    The only thing that Anakin feels is that his mother's need, not his need, compels him to feel he has no choice.

    And how about why the force would provide such a vision which the recipient is supposedly wise to do nothing about. Then what? It comes to pass. Luckily you've since rationalised that everyone dies and it's a part of life. But your mother died in precisely the circumstances you foresaw and in a timeframe that would have given you ample opportunity to intervene as soon your instincts (core lesson of using the force) had told you. I hope Yoda has a coping with guilt lesson tucked up his sleeve for all those students he refused to train the paternal bond out of.

    And there will be guilt. If it's based on those exact circumstances. No question.
     
  16. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    To be fair about your last point, Sinister, even if Anakin contacted Obi-Wan, the man wouldn’t be caught dead saying, “Sure, my young Padawan. Go to Tatooine — a planet filled to the brim with the worse the galaxy has to offer — to save your mother (that is called attachment, which is forbidden). Heck, take Senator Amidala with you while you’re at it!”
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Then it makes sense that Obi-Wan wasn't referring to that role in TESB since Luke learned from Yoda in a guerilla-style one-on-one format, much more similar to Yoda mentoring Obi-Wan after Order 66.

    Yeah really. She had zero reason to be on Tatooine. Perfect place to not be found by people trying to find you.

    Assassin's had no reason to think Padme was on Tatooine. Much safer than being back on Naboo, where multiple people knew she was staying.

    Yes, he does. They have no reason to be looking for her on Tatooine. This is supported by the fact that they have zero assassination issues during their stay.

    No. Ones duty is to the people in the most harms way.

    Not to him.

    Because he doesn't want to get in trouble. Makes sense. What you don't know doesn't hurt you.
     
  18. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    That's not why he feels that he has no choice. He feels that way because he is making an emotional choice, not a logical and more rational one. He's leaving Naboo and going to Tatooine because he's afraid to lose his mother, which is a path to the dark side. His selfishness is that he is doing this with the intention of abandoning his post for his own reasons and not for the good of the galaxy. He has no clue if Jango isn't on Naboo, or is on his way there. How would he react if he found out that Jango did show up and killed Padme, while he was away? It would be his fault that she was dead.

    And yet, when Anakin has a vision of Padme's death, his instinct is to prevent it, when that turns out to be why she dies. That's why Yoda urges caution when sensing the future. To train himself to let go of his fears and his attachments.

    Right. That's why Obi-wan would suggest one of two things; that he himself break off his investigation and go to Tatooine, or to contact the Temple and ask the Council for assistance. But Anakin doesn't do either and so he puts Padme in danger for his own needs.

    No, it means that Yoda will teach Luke about the Jedi Arts, the same way he taught the others. It's not about the long drawn out process that's done in the Temple, but about learning to use the Force and avoid the dark side. He's not talking about learning to communicate with Qui-gon Jinn. He's talking about learning the ways of the Force.

    If Jango found out that they're on Naboo and then arrives to find them leaving for Tatooine, he'd follow them to Tatooine. They also don't know if other assassins or bounty hunters have not been recruited to find her.

    If they find out that Dorme is not Padme and is a decoy, the default thinking would be to go to Naboo. But they arrive on Naboo and find out that she's going to Tatooine, go to Tatooine. The point is that Anakin has no idea what is going on, on Coruscant and no idea what the bounty hunter is up to or where he is.

    His duty was to protect Padme.

    And this is why he becomes Darth Vader.

    And how did that work out for the galaxy?
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    He's talking about Yoda being Luke's mentor and teacher, individually.

    But none of them have any reason to be looking for her on Tatooine. So she's much safer than being on Naboo.

    He knows the bounty hunter is looking for her. And the two places she is presumed to be on are Naboo and Coruscant. So put her anywhere other than these places and she should be safe. We also know Anakin is able to sense danger near her.

    Not according to the Force. The very Will of the Force itself sent him to his mother.

    And it is also why he became Anakin Skywalker again.

    Well, if he had listened to the Force earlier, it would have been a big help to at least his mother. Family first galaxy later.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    And he's talking about how Yoda did that for him and the other Jedi.

    Read what I posted again and then get back to me.

    Yet, he didn't sense Jango about to fire in his direction.

    No, he sent himself to his mother. The Force didn't force him to go. He made a choice of his own volition. He could choose to ignore his visions, or he could choose to ask for help.

    He becomes Anakin again because he stops being selfish and starts being selfless.

    Uh, no. It is why he is Darth Vader. He went to Tatooine to rescue his mother, failed and used the dark side to kill in revenge. He wants to save Padme, but can only do so by betraying the galaxy in order to learn from the very man who wants to enslave the galaxy.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Yeah. Trying to prevent Padme's death indirectly causes her death. Completely the opposite of what happens with his mother, who arguably may have survived if action had been taken sooner. Responding to his instincts played no role, directly or indirectly, on Shmi's death.

    There's no sense in comparing the two scenarios. Unless you impose the arbitrary condition that the impulse to respond to his mother's need was wrong, even if he rescued her in time. Or that saving her would have denied Shmi her destiny to die in the Tusken camp as Anakin envisioned. Leading it to mean that Padme's death was similarly predestined. Thereby diminishing Anakin's responsibility somewhat.
     
  22. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    @darth-sinister

    I know it’s quibbling about the little details — I’m kind of hung up on why Obi-Wan would allow Anakin to cut off his investigation/assignment to go galavanting off to Tatooine on an unsanctioned mission over a woman who, as far as the Jedi were concerned, he should’ve forgotten about a decade ago. Yes, it’s their failing for assuming Anakin would ever just straight up pretend his mother had never raised him, I’m just thinking Obi-Wan’s response would be more like, “No, Anakin. Remember your teachings — let go of your attachment. Your place is on Naboo protecting the Senator.”

    In the film proper, this is what Obi-Wan had to say when he learned of Anakin’s whereabouts.
    “But it’s coming from Tatooine... What in the blazes is the boy doing there? I told him to stay on Naboo!”

    EDIT: Yes, he did also say, “I hope nothing terrible has happened to him...” however this doesn’t imply he would’ve been OK with Anakin going to try and help his mother — for all he knew, Anakin had been captured by bounty hunters and dragged to Tatooine for interrogation.

    Besides, Obi-Wan is a stellar example of a “by-the-books” kind of guy. If it’s not within the Jedi Code, if the Jedi Council doesn’t sanction it, it’s not happening.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    He didn't mention any other Jedi. He just said "the Jedi Master who instructed me."

    If I ever read one of your posts twice, my eyes might literally roll all the way to the back of my head. No thank you.

    He could sense danger around Padme.

    So you're saying the Force forcing him was a farce?

    Such is the Will of the Force. A true Jedi follows it. Obi-Wan's solution of ignoring it was clearly incorrect.

    Destroying Palpatine and saving the galaxy. Later on his grandson also eventually turns to the dark side.




    It is why he is Anakin. I feel like I've said this before...

    Except for when he openly told Yoda he would train Anakin with or without the Council's approval?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    The point in both scenarios is that Anakin acted emotionally towards his loved ones and as a result, he did terrible things. The two are comparable because of that simple fact, which Lucas points out.

    "This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally, and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people, but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    It's all right there.

    The point is that if Obi-wan or the Council had been clued in on what Anakin was going to do, they might have been able to prevent bad things from happening. I never said that he would ask for permission to go, but he would need to talk to Obi-wan or Mace and they would come up with a solution that was satisfactory to all involved.

    You're splitting hairs here. Yoda taught all the Jedi the ways of the Force. He doesn't have to talk about all the other Jedi. He's talking about himself because Luke knows him and he is telling him, this is the guy to go to.

    Then don't complain when you can't understand something that was clearly laid out.

    But he couldn't sense it around Zam.

    No. I said that Anakin made a choice to leave or stay and he chose to leave. He wasn't forced to go. People who say, "I have no choice" are lying to themselves. They have a choice. We all have a choice. That's called free will. We can choose who we are and where we want to go.

    "What these films deal with is that we all have good and evil inside of us, and that we can choose which way we want the balance to go. Star Wars is made up of many themes, it's not just a single theme. One is our relationship to machines, which is fearful, but also benign, they are an extension of the human, not mean in themselves. The issue of friendship, your obligation to your fellow man, to other people who are around you. That you have control over your destiny, that you HAVE a destiny, that you have many paths to walk down, and you may have a great destiny if you decide not to walk down that path. Your life might be satisfying, if you wake up and listen to your inner feelings and realize what it is you have a particular talent for and what contributions you can make to society."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine Interview, 1999.


    This is why Luke has to make a choice as to which way his balance will go in ROTJ. Does he want to be a Jedi, or does he want to be a Sith. And that balance is tied into trying to save his father, while dealing with his fear for his sister. Once he realizes that he will lose himself trying to save his sister by destroying his father, does he make the rational choice to stop fighting and accept whatever fate will befall them.

    A Jedi follows the will of the Force, but they must be mindful of the choices that they make. Anakin was not mindful which is why he became Vader.

    Anakin and Ben both made the choices to do good and evil. No one forced them to do it. Anakin chooses to save Luke by letting go of his attachment to the dark side and to Palpatine and does something selfless and noble. Ben chooses to turn to the dark side because he is convinced that Vader did the right thing up until he let sentimentality get in the way of his destiny. And he feels betrayed by both his father and his uncle. Once he decides to give up his attachment to the dark side, will he turn away from it.
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    [face_laugh]

    No offense but George telling us what he broadly intended falls way short of making any sense of people being prescient enough to save lives but delayed by perceived duty and when they are given a second chance to use their foreknowledge it turns it they've seen the results of them taking a life rather than saving it. Because they've concluded that the reason their mother died was not timing but the fact that all his Jedi friends should die. [face_dunno]