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PT Obi Wans Master

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by TheCowboyBuilder, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    If you concede than Anakin was closer, why even pretend that getting Mace Windu to do it was an option? And why move the goal post now that you have been disproved?

    Def greater insight from the novelization.

    It's never shown.

    According to the novelization, and the film, she is indeed in pain.

    It was considered his final trial. Just like Dooku underwent his trials and still fell to the dark side. Earning the rank of Jedi Knight doesn't mean it's now impossible to fall to the dark side.

    You can use any terminology you want to describe it. This does not change the events of the film.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Someone from Coruscant could get there, or the Council could order a Jedi who is close to Tatooine to go there. Someone other than Anakin.

    That's not moving the goal post. That's point out that it didn't matter who was closer or not, she was done for.

    How is he shown to not be caring about Shmi? Especially when he and Anakin have no idea that she's suffering.

    The novelization is wrong. Lucas didn't write it. He did write the film and Anakin only sees her in pain when he's on Naboo.

    I never said that. I said that Anakin never faced himself. He went into the Nelvanna cave and saw his becoming Vader, but he didn't reject it. Rescuing the males did not mean that he passed any trial, because he did not accept that there was darkness in his heart. Obi-wan assumes that he did pass, but he didn't. Anakin only truly faces himself, the mirror, when he sees himself in Luke, a reflection of what he should have been.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You're reaching further than ever. There is no mention of Jedi being near Tatooine. In fact the PT goes out of it's way to communicate that Tatooine is not part of the Republic.

    The person who is closer gets there faster.

    He expresses his dreams about his mother to Obi-Wan in his first appearance on-screen in AOTC.

    He never went back to help her, is currently telling the one person who is concerned about her, to ignore his visions about her.

    All Jedi accept this. It is fact. He is never shown denying it.

    Eloquently stated, but never occurs in the films.
     
    Samuel Vimes and Martoto77 like this.
  4. CLee

    CLee Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    But why couldn't/didn't he feel this selfless altruism for anyone else the Emperor or Imperial officers or he himself mistreated? It does seem to be at least motivated by selective concern to their personal connection.

    Yeah, it's interesting that the Jedi and Sith both seem to both disapprove of and underestimate attachments.

    It may not be a good thing but how is it a terrible thing to ask the person you're protecting to let you leave so you can protect and try to save someone else, let alone someone in greater danger? If he had tried to go or just decided to go sooner he could have saved Shmi (while other Jedi could have done the assignments he instead actually did).
    Him massacring the camp was terrible but I don't think that was due to or inevitably due to that he tried to find his mother and was angry that she had been killed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    And yet, Quinlan Vos was on Tatooine.

    [​IMG]

    My point, though, was that there are Jedi who are close enough to the Outer Rim that could go there. I never said that there was a Jedi on Tatooine. Naboo is close to Tatooine. There are other worlds near the boarder that are, like Malastare and D'Qar.

    And it didn't matter, because she was dying that very night. Anakin, who was close, was already too late.

    Right, but Lucas never wrote that Anakin and Obi-wan thought that she was suffering and in pain the whole time. Salvatore did because he was basing his book on what he perceived to be the situation. There is no cause for concern from the way Anakin is talking about his dreams. The sequence that was cut where Anakin has a nightmare on the transport to Naboo, has Anakin saying "no, mom, no.", but he has no cause for concern then. It is only when he has the nightmare on Naboo, where he states that he could see her quite clearly, that he says that she's suffering and in pain.

    Obi-wan not going back to Tatooine didn't mean that he didn't care. Hell, Anakin doesn't even go back until he realizes she's in trouble. He also never says ignore visions. He says dreams pass in time. If he thought that they were visions of her in trouble, he would have gone himself to check on her.

    He denies it by killing Dooku out of anger and hate. He denies it by marrying Padme and knocking her up. He denies it by joining Palpatine and betraying everyone.

    If it didn't occur, then Luke would be dead and the Sith would have escaped in time. Luke and Vader see themselves in each other.

    Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier. Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.

    --The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

    Vader sees himself as Dooku and he sees Luke as he was. Luke has defeated him using anger and hate, just like he defeated Dooku. But where he killed Dooku, Luke spares him. He sees this and it is what starts the ball rolling on turning against Palpatine.

    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

    He doesn't have the sense of selflessness towards others, because they don't show it towards him. If someone had showed him compassion for what he's done and made an effort to reach out to him, he would have had a change of heart.

    Yes, it was.

    "This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inability to let go of his emotions and allow himself to accept the inevitable. The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the dark side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the dark side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi." And you'll hear later on Dooku will say "I have become more powerful than any Jedi." So you're going start to see everybody saying the same thing. And Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn't have time to start from scratch, and so we can see that that's where this is going to lead which is that it is possible for a Jedi to be converted. It is possible for a Jedi to want to become more powerful, and control things. Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he committed this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.
     
  6. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    So there are Jedi on Tatooine who aren't willing to help. Great.

    Thus why going to help his mother made sense. Calling Coruscant to do it, doesn't.

    In the view of Anakin, who loved his mother, it did matter. From an out of universe perspective obviously the life of a fictional character doesn't matter...why even bother saying this?

    There is in the film. Nobody wants happy dreams to "pass in time." The dreams have a negative implication from the beginning of the film.

    Anakin has been brainwashed since he was a child to let go of all attachment to his mother. It makes sense that he would need the bad dreams a catalyst to begin worrying about her again.

    Quite possible, but never actually happens. removed. /heels

    No, this is completely made up. Vader didn't need to "see himself in Luke" to pick up the Emperor and kill him. He saw his son dying and wanted to save him. So see his motivation is left up to the individual viewer, and I respect your interpretation. It is not canon however.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2018