PT Obi Wan's true intention on Mustafar?

I always thought one of the main reasons Obi Wan started training Luke at that age besides their personal safety and to make sure he was trained correctly, was to also let the Force call the shots. It's never been stated, but alot of fans believe that Obi Wan was waiting for a sign from the Force to train one of the Skywalker twins, as only the Force would know when things were properly aligned for everything to work out to get itself back into balance.

IMO, It was a race between the twins to see who would be trained first. Technically Leia was on her way to pick up Obi/Ben which would've been his sign to train Leia. We all know how that went and who ended up at Ben's step first.

 

Kill Anakin. The End.

 

But one does wonder why Obi-Wan waited three years before telling Luke to go Dagobah.
Luke is by now a wanted man, the empire is hunting him down so safety is no longer an option.
Same goes for Leia.
And given that both are at the same place, this becomes even more odd.
If the empire finds the base, then both Luke and Leia could die or get captured.

And it is even odder since Yoda rejects Luke for being too old.
If he could talk with Obi-Wan and they discussed Luke, then it is Yoda's own fault that Luke is too old. He could have brought him three years earlier.
Or Leia.

@darth-sinister

I do not agree with this and I find it to be hairsplitting.
Anakin is DYING because of what Obi-Wan did.
Obi-Wan has inflicted a mortal wound on Anakin and has in effect killed Anakin.

Dismembering a person is likely fatal even in normal surroundings and on Mustafar, it is assured.
The only thing he can do now is to either shorten Anakin's agony or be cruel and leave him to suffer horribly before dying.
So the excuse that Obi-Wan can't kill Anakin is proven wrong by the film, he was very capable.
Nor do the Jedi rules apply since Anakin is dying because of Obi-wans actions.
Unless the Jedi rules say that Jedi should try and kill their opponents as painfully as possible.

It is the same if someone poisons a person with a poison that is fatal but will take ten agony filled hours to do the job. It is still killing.
Or if you knock someone out and ties them up in a burning building, this is also killing.
So Obi-Wan wouldn't kill Anakin as much as put an end to his pain.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Samuel Vimes wrote

But one does wonder why Obi-Wan waited three years before telling Luke to go Dagobah.

Difficult to answer this one is. Luke might have been too tied-up with Alliance affairs, yet I'd like to believe that Ben did teach Luke during that time as a Force ghost to some extent, as hinted / suggested bythe ESB screenplay draft from October 1978:

Luke spies his laser sword lying near a pile of his discarded gear about three feet out of reach. Reverberating through the gorge, the growling and crunching sounds of the approaching ice monster can be heard. Luke desperately strains for his sword. Quietly, almost a whisper, Luke hears old BEN’S CALM VOICE.
BEN (Voice Over)
Luke, think the saber in your hand.
Luke focuses on the saber as the huge monster’s feet crunch closer. Luke’s hand strains toward the weapon, his eyes squeeze tight in concentration.
LUKE
Gotta relax, relax…
BEN (Voice Over)
Let The Force flow, Luke.

After all, Obi-Wan told Vader in ANH

BEN
You can’t win, Darth. If you
strike me down, I shall become more
powerful than you can possibly
imagine.

"More powerful" has to have some practical meaning.

 

He wouldn't kill him. In my canon, he still believed in Qui Gon's words that he's the chosen one.

 

No he doesn't, Obi Wan's speech to Anakin at the end of their duel indicates that his faith in Anakin being the Chosen One and bringing balance to the force has been shattered.

 

But it's my canon.

 

Obi-Wan refuted that. "You were the Chosen One! It was said you'd destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force -- not leave it in darkness!"

 

I know. But i like to think that deep down he still believed his master was right.

 

^^ I think Obi Wan still thinks Anakin is the Chosen One, just that he failed in his destiny and ****ed up pretty bad.

In Obi's mind, Anakin has literally done the exact opposite of what he was supposed to do. He doesn't necessarily think Anakin isn't the Chosen One now based on his actions, but rather that he missed his opportunity to do "his job" and now the Force was working a blank canvas.

 

He was there at first to try and redeem Anakin even in the duel. He thought Anakin died in result burning alive and did not kill him to make sure.

 

Since when did he ever try to redeem Anakin on Mustafar? All Obi did was just lecture him.

Obi Wan never asked Anakin once to stop what he was doing and turn away from this madness.

 

I wonder if Luke is the Chosen One? Going just by the OT and the PT, it's safe to say that he was and his destiny was fulfilled but adding in the ST just complicates things. I wish we got more canon detail on what exactly the prophecy was. Seeing it get brought up in the new movies would excite me, a nice acknowledgement of continuity in the new era.

 

IIRC, Lucas to this day still insists that Anakin IS the Chosen One, but it just took Luke to help him fulfill his destiny. Anakin did the hands on work to balance out the Force, where Luke did the soul work.

Also, Snax.... Jesus man, I love your username and picture. Rebo is the underrated hero of the entire Saga. I love that little not-a-blue-elephant Max and his groovy boogie band.

 

Eh, I don't buy it. If the Chosen One/prophecy plot got a little more focus than a few throwaway lines, I might, but as of now trying to debate the prophecy is pointless. It's never going to be given an explanation. All issues can be solved by chalking them up to the prophecy being wrong in the first place.


Thank you for the compliment! Rebo truly was a hero to all. I even got past my hatred of Funko Pops to buy his bobblehead, which works surprisingly well with Funko's style. He's guarding my shelf now.

 

I'd have liked the Chosen One/Prophecy to have gotten some more backstory. It's like Lucas watched The Matrix while writing TPM and thought "huh, chosen one sounds cool. Makes Anakin/Vader more important and essential....sure!" It's about as lazily written and insulting as the adding of midichlorians. Cool concept, one I appreciate, but even in ROTS the characters basically say "wtf is up with this prophecy anyway? No one knows? Cool."


Also, glad to see I'm not the only one who detests Funko Pop. I just don't get the hype behind it, and as much as I love SW and GOT, I can't bring myself to buy the merch.

Shout out to Max, the true hero of SW.

 

_Sublime_Skywalker_, yeah, I can see him taking some "inspiration" from the Matrix and Dune. Atleast they came up with their own names for the concept instead of just "The Chosen One". It's one of those odd prequel things that makes you wonder where they were going with it, if anywhere. Jar-Jar, Dooku, Midichlorians, and the Rule of Two come to mind.

 

Can't really defend most of those, but I will say that The Rule of Two made for some pretty sick EU. If you haven't read the Darth Bane books by Drew Karpyshyn I'd greatly suggest it. Great Old Republic Era books revolving around where the "Rule of Two"came from.

 

Ah, I'm sure they fleshed out the concept more but I never read those books. I might give them a shot. I always found it a little odd that an ideology focusing so much on power would limit itself to a Rule of Two. Unless it's saying that war between competing Sith is inevitable, which I guess makes sense. Too many Sith spoil the broth.

 

That's what I hate the most about the duel. Anakin was supposed to be Obi-Wan's closest friend, someone with whom he had been through so much together and all Obi-Wan does is lecture as if Anakin were some random Jedi who went Sith? If my best friend went evil, I'd do more than a token "You've allowed your hate to blind you. I will do what I must" speech. Hell, even GOKU put more of an effort in trying to reason with Vegeta after the latter decided to become evil once again.

 

Anakin is the Chosen One.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

"The Midichlorians have brought Anakin into being as “the chosen one” who will balance the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don’t know yet whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don’t know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999.

"It was a virgin birth in an ecosystem of symbiotic relationships. It means that between the Force, which is sort of a life force, and reality, the connectors between these two things are what we call Midichlorians. They're kind of based on mitochondria, which are a completely different animal, that live inside every single cell and allow it to live, allow it to reproduce, allow life to exist. They also, in their own way, communicate with the Force itself. The more you have, the more your cells are able to speak intuitively to the Force itself and use the powers of the Force. Ultimately, I would say the Force itself created Anakin. I don't want to get into specific terms of labeling things to make it one religion or another, but basically that's one of the foundations of the hero's journey."

--George Lucas, Feburary 2005 issue of Vanity Fair, page 117.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

"The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

Lightsabers cauterize wounds. We've seen that. Neither Luke, nor Anakin, nor Zam, nor Dooku are bleeding from having their severed limbs. So Anakin's injures were on Mustafar were non fatal when he first lands on the embankment and starts sliding down hill. So there is no mortal wound and given what we know of Anakin as Vader and what we've seen of Saw Guerra during "Rogue One", a person can survive without much of their body without going full on Grievous. Vader only needed the breath suit because of the damage to his lungs from catching fire. Saw didn't need to use it all the time. But yes, the Jedi Code still applies no matter what. The Jedi do not just arbitrarily pick and choose when to break rules. That's why Anakin said he was wrong after he killed Dooku, which was a sign of his descent into evil. Mace going to kill Palpatine when he was pretending to be weak, was seen as a contradiction of the Jedi Code and had served as a justification for Anakin to keep going along this path. When Obi-wan follows the Code by not killing Anakin, he is adhering to the Jedi Code no matter what. It shows how much of a Jedi he truly is. When Luke does the same thing in not killing his father, he is showing how much of a Jedi he has become and why he says that he is a Jedi now.

As to easing suffering, I don't think Jedi ever do that. Not to my knowledge in TCW and "Rebels" and definitely not in the films. They probably wouldn't do that with a mercy killing.

 

First, are you familiar with the concept "Death from Exposure"?
Some forms of executions in the past have relied on this.
Second, tying in with what you said in another thread, that Fire and Gravity that did the actual damage.
Ex. say that a person is climbing a mountain and someone is at the top and cuts the rope, causing the climber to fall and die. Is this Killing? Yes!
If this person goes to court and tries to defend himself with "I didn't kill him, gravity and the ground did the killing." Would the jury buy it? I doubt it.
Or someone dismembers a person by cutting of both legs and one arm but cauterizing the wounds so they don't bleed to death. Then they take this person out into the middle of a desert and leaves them there. If this dismembered person dies from exposure, is this killing? YES!
If this person goes to court, do you think the jury would by the excuse of "I didn't kill him, the elements and lack of food and water killed him."?
Or if someone pushes a person into a tank of hungry sharks who eats him. Is this killing?
Yes!
Now I am not saying that Obi-Wan is a murderer since Anakin was trying to kill him but I do say that Obi-Wan did try to KILL Anakin.
Third, as I have said, this seems like moral cowardice. That Obi-wan tries to hide behind a very flimsy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for his actions.
Fourth, the Jedi Code, so you think the code has a rule of "Try to kill your opponent if you have to, but if you try and fail and your opponent is still alive but screaming in pain and will die from your botched killing, then you are not to do anything to help them or end their suffering."?
This seems really horrible.
I would think that the Jedi, if they decide to kill, that they go with as quick a way as possible and not a slow and cruel way.
As far as I know, the states in the US that still have the Death Penalty, they still try to make the death as quick and painless as possible and if an execution is botched and the person is dying slowly and horribly, I doubt their rules say to just let them be.

In this case, Obi-Wan inflicted a killing wound on Anakin by dismembering him in the very hostile place they were in. Anakin will not be able to move and the fire, heat and lack of water will eventually kill him.
So Obi-Wan DID in effect kill Anakin. That Palpatine stopped Anakin from dying doesn't change this in any way. Same with Maul, Obi-Wan cut him in half, which is fatal. That Maul was brought back to life doesn't change that.
Take Jabba, he planned to have Luke and co been throw into the Sarlac pit, where they would die very slowly. Would this be killing? Yes.
Is Jabba responsible? Yes.

To sum up, Obi-wan tried to kill Anakin and had Palaptine not interfered, he would have succeeded.
But in my eyes he choose a slow and very painful way to do it which makes him cruel or a moral coward.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

well fact is this when Kenobi goes to confront Padme about Anakin's whereabouts and Padme sees the obvious that Kenobi wants to know where Anakin is in order to kill him. Kenobi does not deny this fact instead he actually justifies his actions by saying he's a big threat.

from 1:20+


I think the point is that Kenobi was the inversion of Luke concerning the same person Anakin.
ROTS-Kenobi goes to kill Anakin, while there he tries to convince him but gives up
ROTJ-Luke goes to redeem Anakin, while there he tries to do so while fighting him and never gives up

basically Luke is his mother's son, he's the only other character outside of her that believed that there was still good in him and was right.

 

He had no intention of disobeying Yoda. However, face-to-face with his best friend, he had a hard time letting go. The novel and other sources explain that he didn't want to murder a helpless man, attachment or not. That was following the Jedi Code, but that doesn't mean it was the right decision, letting Anakin live.

 

his first thought is to reason with anakin and return him to the light but after choking padme he gives up and its a fight to the death