ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by razzy1319, Apr 2, 2006.

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  1. razzy1319 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2004
    star 4
    The story is called ODDS and it's set a few months after the end of Triple Zero. It features Atin from Omega Squad and Null ARC Lieutenants Mereel and Prudii. Between them, they discover that the first casualty of war, as we all know only too well these days, is a precious and fragile thing called the truth.

    Mods, couldnt find the two original threads using Yahoo's Advanced Search Function and the Thread Index so please lock if you find it.

    Anyways, Traviss has been hinting at the TOS that the short story might explain further(Fandos) or retcon(Saxtos) the so called numbers... Anyone want to take a guess at what it might be?
  2. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    It better be a good fix.

    I won't bother starting the argument again to explain why.
  3. 000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2005
    star 4
    It'd better be good, the way she's been smugly hinting at it in her various online writings.

    It is, however, almost certain to be a lame "Palpatine the chessmaster" 'fix.'

    (As a side note, "Saxtonites" aren't really the big detractors of the number. Most people dislike it, myself included, and I'm no "Saxtonite".)
  4. cyris8400 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2006
    star 2
    Kudzu and 000 have the same icon and posted consecutively. It's almost like going to school and finding out someone else is wearing the same outfit!

    *valley girl* Like, oh, my gosh.
  5. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    What was the issue again?
  6. razzy1319 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2004
    star 4
    000: It is lame but simple, fact and logical, judging by her recent blogs logical is the way she usually goes... heres to that and something more that we might have already discussed in the old thread.:D

    Ex: Less controversial(than the SSD length debate) published number of clones fighting that us fans argue about. :-B
  7. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    If it's anything other than "3 million was incorrect", it's going to be lame.
  8. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    To clarify, the only logical "fix" will be to disavow the ridiculous number altogether.

    I'm not holding my breath, however.

    And for the record, I'm not even close to a Saxtonite. I don't give a crap about the SSD's length or name...this clone number is a far bigger error than either of those two, and I can't understand why the EU consists in perpetuating it.
  9. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    Oh, the 3 million thing.
  10. 000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2005
    star 4
    Here's Traviss's full thoughts on the matter:

  11. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    To LFL's credit, I think it's just Traviss that insists on perpetuating it. The several direct contradictions of the three million number in the canon should be in the Holocron, and I haven't seen any non-Traviss statements since the GGAR article on it.
  12. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    So I guess she's going with some lame, overly complicated "fix" then.

    :rolleyes:
  13. 000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2005
    star 4
    Well, y'see, Quent, you're just too dense to understand it. We all are. Karen Traviss simply operates on a higher level of intellect than us.
  14. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Seriously, how hard would it be to say, "Oops! The number was wrong. Where we wrote "3 million", it should have read "300 billion" LFL apologises for the error."

    See? All over and done with, and it doesn't require any LOL!AWEZOME!! fix that apparently I'm an ignoramous if I don't immediately declare to be brilliant and logical.
  15. Tam_Elgrin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2004
    star 4
    I wish more authors followed the Abel G. Pena approach of "never, ever pin down exact numbers or dates unless you really, really, really need to in order to make the piece work".
  16. 000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2005
    star 4
    Quentin: I don't get it either. They did it with the SSD length, and that number's been around a helluva lot longer than this one.

    Tam: I don't mind concrete numbers, I'd just like them to make sense.
  17. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    And the corollary to that philosophy, "if you do choose to use exact numbers, don't make yourself out to be a huge hypocrite by turning right around and mocking other people for caring about exact numbers".

    Heck, I think that attitude would do the EU well in general. Not necessarily on big things, but on number issues. I was glad to see them do just that for the SSD; no secondary "Super-class", no "you just have bad eyesight", no "WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT NUMBERS YOU DORK", just a simple "Whoops, guess we made a mistake. Pay those old numbers no mind."
  18. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Tam: I agree. If they can't give realistic numbers, don't give one at all.
  19. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Sometimes I wish I was here to talk to her during that. Instead, I vanish, and I return, and Karen's gone!

    *sighs*

    Hopefully Sidious did something akin to pretending to fill the army with conscripts, but in fact was inserting clones left, right and centre. Would explain why the loss of Kamino in month 31 didn't murder the Republic.
  20. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    I'd like that explanation, but I don't think I'm going to get it.
  21. razzy1319 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2004
    star 4
    Oh well... that was a nice and short discussion that added to the the subject(sarcasm)...

    I guess this place has its SFcans too...:D

    Mods pls lock... I'll just find the old one and start anew...
  22. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    Why are you requesting a lock? Aren't we allowed to discuss this issue unless we heap glowing praise on this "brilliant fix"?

    :confused:
  23. razzy1319 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2004
    star 4
    This issue has been discussed, all youre doing is adding more insult to injury. If you wish to bring up these discussions then go to the TOS and post on a forum where your complaints can be answered by the author. I dont know if youve already done that since your usernames are different over there but If you have, I have seen nothing that convinces them that your issues are supposed to be recognized.

    Maybe we should ask what other people who have clout with LFL what their opinion is? Ask Stradley, Ask Abel, Ask Rostoroni{sorry), or Chee. If somebody doesnt agree then we should call them smug ass who dont care about the realism of star wars.:D (Go Pot).

    We asked for realistic stories, so we get a nerdy teenager or a 20 year old that loves the spartans so much he disregards that they killed thier own freaking babies and we fail to see that.

    Lock this Thread... cause I'm babbling too much about something that aint supposed to be in here. And you will all probably in a minute or so.
  24. Matthew Trias Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 1999
    star 6
    Three billion wouldn't be enough.

    Couldn't we just accept that the number applies only to the Kaminoan clones?

    After all the NEC says that many of the clones at the end of the Clone Wars were not Kaminoan made but Spaarti brand.

    The GAR at the beginning of the Clone Wars had the 3 million clone troopers plus how many ever Republican Guard and nationalized Security Force troopers. Even an entire planet full of clones wouldn't be enough to support the entire war. You're talking about galactic war. Yes, a few billion clones might make us feel better but the brunt of the operations would fall on non clone troops. A few billion clones could be wiped out in the attempted conquering of a few CIS fortress worlds.

    It's hard to do away with the 3 million figure when you've had entire books shaped around the premise that there were only 1 million clone troopers early in the war. Shatterpoint showed us a slightly hotter than cold cold war as both sides drew lines in the sand and assessed each other's tactical and strategic abilities with probing strikes. The book showing the locations of AotCs uses a 200 thousand figure concerning the number of clone troopers that were present on Geonosis which coincidentally matches up with the 200 thousand units line, implying that a unit really does refer to one trooper.(200 thousand units were sent to Geonosis according to AotCs)

    Considering how Kamino was marginalized during the Clone Wars(see the SW databank entry on the missions of the 501st) you caan easily say that the amount of Clone troopers they supplied to the war effort was only 3 million by war's end. The Spaarti tech could have supplied billions as factories around the galaxy churned the cylinders out.

    The 3 million figure could only refer to the Kaminoan clones which also happen to be what Ms. Traviss's novels exclusively focus on.

    However, I haven't been following this debate. If it's being insisted that the GAR was made up of only 3 million troopers for the war's entire duration... well that's not merely silly, but impossible. Not remotely possible. The CIS prosecution of the war would be so incompetent as to be unbelievable. People would know that something was up.

    Nor could you claim they were so successful because they faught against droids. The CIS field many an organic army in the comics, even deploying its own clone army on Saleucami at the end of the war. Judging from the descriptions of the Saleucami seige in the comics, 3 million troopers could have easily perished in that incident alone.

    As long as the figure only refers to what the Kaminoans supplied the war effort, things are fine. Try and say that the GAR had 3 million and only 3 million for the entire war....well, all logic within the story breaks down.

    Other than the 3 million trooper figure , are there any other complaints about Ms. Traviss' work? Story? plot? Characterization?


  25. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Well, the NEC did note that planetary militias became 'unsung heroes' as well as conscription. A squadron of Clone troopers could recruit on a planet and cause a massive uprisings on Malastare, Giju, etc.

    The Clone Army, yes, 3 Million. I accept that fine. The entire Republic army? No. But, they aren't the entire Republic army.

    We have naval officers, after all. And the aforementioned planetary militias, conscripts. Then Palpy, taking controlling of the planetary navies and militias, had several million ships and billion troopers appearing. Works fine

    *waves hand in dismissal*

    And yes, quintillions of droids would overwhelm the Republic, but not the entire galaxy. Which the CIS were aiming for.
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