ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by razzy1319, Apr 2, 2006.

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  1. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    maybe, we can write our own Grand Army Articles!
  2. blackmyron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    Of course, this is all in good fun. LFL is going to do what they want, and a large number of people are going to watch the TV show. That's a given, regardless if it's a "Lord of the Rings epic" or "stupid nano-brushfire* micro-mini non-war".
    I sure you realize that regardless of arguements here, the only real ways to shape official canon is to (a) get a writing gig with LFL or (b) have influence with a current author.


    * Just in case you didn't notice in the "non-controversial Odds thread", the word "brushfire" is never used in the story... but I suppose that's more scornful than saying "small fires"

    Please watch the baiting.
  3. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    Look, SW is an epic. Epics mean BIG events. Just look at the battles we see in the movies, which sure as hell do not support this nano brushfire war idea.

    I've never understood this argument. What huge, epic battles did you see in the films? I've seen "thousands of ships" referenced in RotS, but they didn't show that. A few dozen are all that were on screen. Same thing in RotJ.

    There are a lot of things that can be inferred from the films, but that's not the same as being shown.

    The SW movies are about a handful of people. The prequels added a few more into the mix, but overall you watching the story of Anakin Skywalker and those directly related to him. The Lord of the Rings (books or movies) also deal with a small group, but they also show, blatantly, the massive forces in action. Star Wars never does. (The one exception might be a few brief shots during the Order 66 scenes, but I'd hardly call those "epic," either.

    Star Wars has always been a very narrow story set on a broad background, so that's why I've never bought this argument...
  4. Master_of_Ossus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    star 2
    It's already been shown by the amazing New Essential Guide to Droids, which states that the CIS had "millions" of factories for droids and that tens of thousands of a single type of droid guarded a single factory.

    Yeap! It's easy to fight a war when you have maybe 3 soldiers for each enemy factory, each of which crank out multiple droids every second.

    Anyone still want to defend the 3 million clones number?
  5. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    5,000 capital ships in a single shot at Coruscant; that's straight from the VFX guys.

    Millions of factories? That's great. If Odds is to be believed, then every factory only churned out a couple hundred droids. [face_laugh] I think we see that many in a few shots of AOTC alone.
  6. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
  7. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Others have already pointed out that the VFX guys already stated thousands of ships at Coruscant. NONE of the ships involved were even as small as the "heavy cruisers" from WEG, and even the smallest frigate there would be counted as some kind of uber battleship by those rpg sources.

    TPM showed a blockade made up entirely of 3 km ships.

    AOTC showed a huge ground battle which certainly isn't consistent with the claim that the CW were a minor brushfire conflict.

    ANH and ROTJ had Death Stars, equivalent to millions of ships. They also showed dozens and dozens of ISDs and Mon Cals (not the pitiful handful that shows up in some of the EU novels), as well as multiple 3-4 km Home One type ships.

    A handful of people caught up in huge events.

    :rolleyes: what movies did you watch?
  8. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    One of the last desperate arguments of the nano 3 million supporters is that Odds came out after the ICS and other sources with big numbers, so it automatically retcons them all away. :rolleyes: While Leland Chee does say that newer sources often take priority, that rule is hardly set in stone, and it doesn't dismiss "G-canon > C-canon" and the "case by case" way LFL handles contradictions. But going by minimalist "logic," doesn't this mean that Odds has now been retconned away by the NEGtD?
  9. Vympel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2002
    star 2
    Tee hee. So what was it that "Odds" claimed? As I recall, the ARCs said that the (unguarded, no quality control- brilliant) factory that they raided produced 996,125 droids in a year. That's ~2730 droids per day.

    Millions of factories. Let me just factor that in there .... carry the two ....

    Millions of factories= bare minimum of millions is 2,000,000 factories. And likely much more. I'm just being uber-conservative.

    That's 5 billion, 460 million droids. Per .... DAY. 2 trillion droids per year. Far, far, far in excess of a reasonable number to oppose the "noble 3,000,000".

    Note, of course, that at no point do I think that the ARCs idle musings in Odds was at all accurate. In reality, the droid factories would be churning out more than Geonosis (close to 100,000 per day), which was considered slow.

    3,000,000 clones, Odds, and brush fire wars. Just plain wrong. The end.

  10. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    Personally, I don't know any of the authors involved at any level with SW works. I don't go to lunch with any of them, so I've got nothing to gain with one over another....




    .....that being said, I think I'm gonna have to take the words of Sue Rostoni, Leeland Chee and others in the know at LFL about the numbers. Not the authors themselves, mind you, but the folks who are paid by LFL to know this stuff. I trust their word much more than the opinions of anyone on ANY fan site, and I'm certain they know more than me. They've said 3 million clones, who am I to argue? I'm a fan of a fiction work. It's absolutely NOT my place to say the owner of said work is wrong.

    As for droid numbers, I have no problem accepting officially published numbers. I know Dan Wallace had something about the NEGD on his BLog recently, so I'll be checking to see what HE says about it, himself....

    Whether it's accepted, enjoyed, liked, blah blah, woof woof, whatever, this is what Lucasfilm has said is the truth. As I said, I'm in no position to tell the owners of the work (LFL owns it, BTW, not any author, and not the publisher) that their wrong. I might disagree with something, but I disagree with a lot of things I can't do anything with.........politics comes to mind... ;)
  11. Imperial_Commandant Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2005
    star 1
    FIne, JediWampa, if you can accept three million clones defeating trillions+ battle droids just because LFL said so, then be my guest. Of course, if LFL ever changes their mind (which they are known to do) I would trust that your opinion would change as theirs does.
  12. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    We do have evidence to support these numbers, you know.

    If the droid army was huge, as Skirata said, Coruscant would be a CIS world. It only has one trillion people on it, after all. Qilura only has a hundred-droid garrison on it, to add.

    Now, beyond Karen Traviss. Jedi Trial has a 200 ship fleet, most of which is ships of the capital class, carrying a mere million droids. Nice fleet numbers, tiny droid army numbers. Thats a precedent, just there.

    Mace Windu himself says, in LoE, that "there aren't the droids in the galaxy to occupy Coruscant". How can Master Windu himself say that, and know there's quadrillions of droids in the galaxy?

    *shrugs*

    The new, or, should I say, numbers are large enough that the CIS can defeat the Republic where it chooses to, and small enough that they can't simply overwhelm the Republic and its 3 million Grand Army, and its planetary militia's by the billion.

    And anyway, how is the Empire supposed to be viewed as a real threat with 30,000 ISDs and a few million support ships, when the CIS raised quadrillions of droids. Really.

    I'd give the CIS a massive armada, but not a massive army. Not if canon says not.

    Its retroactive continuity, remember. If a later author says different, we take those figures because its like real history - you have a few facts, you string together a likely chain of events, and then when new information arrives, you change the theory.

    Up until Abels article on Sith, a True Sith Empire divergent from the Sith Empire of 7000 BBY was the probable. Now its not. But a Killik Sith, regardless, is. So shrug.
  13. Vympel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2002
    star 2

    They've said 3 million clones, who am I to argue? I'm a fan of a fiction work. It's absolutely NOT my place to say the owner of said work is wrong.


    I don't see why it isn't. I care about what the sources actually say reasoning, common sense, math, etc, more than I do about appealing to anyone's personal say-so. As a fan, a consumer, and a human with a functioning mind I like to exercise it. I won't accept any old spoonfed factoid foisted upon me, especially when it's clear that not much thought went into the factoid.

    To put it another way, at what point do you balk? The folks at LFL say that Vader's lightsabre is bright green and can blow up planets. And Han Solo is actually Wolverine. Who are you to argue? Like it or not, its the same principle.
  14. Vympel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2002
    star 2
    Who cares what the population of Coruscant is? It's the defenders that matter. Qilura, hundred droid garrison? What was it, a one town planet?

    A precedent for what? What kind of ships?

    Because he's clearly not under the delusion there are only 3 million clones. I'd remind you that LoE also says that clonetroopers are omnipresent on Coruscant. Everywhre. It's a simple matter of deduction that even if all 3,000,000 clones were on Coruscant, on a city planet of a trillion people, you'd be lucky to ever see one.

    Billions of droids per day, as established by the NEGtD (and that's a radically conservative, unrealistically low number), is more than enough to overwhelm such a pathetic force.

    Droids do not equal ships. A few million support ships? They had many other types of warships. It wasn't just ISDs and their support. They're also at peace, not engaged in a galactic war. The civil war was a guerilla war (RotJ novel).

    Canon clearly says massive both, actually.
  15. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    To put it another way, at what point do you balk?

    Well, if they did something so outrageous, my "protest" wouldn't be to come to every message board and forum on the 'net and complain about it and say how everyone else is wrong. (and this isn't directed at any one person, BTW....don't take this as a personal attack)

    If I want to protest something like this, I won't buy it. My money carries more weight than my voice in a case like this. Neither one of them individually will likely change anything, but if I gathered 1,000 people to yell at the top of their lungs, and another 1,000 people who would ordinarily purchase a $25 book, which do you think would get more notice?

    The point is this: accept what you like, disregard what you don't, but stop trying to "convert the masses," for EITHER side. You want to believe there are 3,000,000,000,000 clones and 100 times that number of droids? Feel free! You might never see anything to directly support it, but how often has ANYTHING been shown on a scale like this in SW? Even at the height of the clone wars, you only see small snippets. In the films, even if you count the Order 66 stuff, there were around a dozen Jedi shown. Is it logical to assume this is all there were? No, of course not...

    Again, take what you like, ignore what ya don't, and move on with your life. I really don't see how hard that is to figure out...






    And yes, if LFL comes out with newer approved material, then that's what I'll accept. Since Dan Wallace didn't list an output level for the factories he mentioned, if I had to guess, he probably didn't want to get dragged into this fight. I'm going to respect that, and, unless he puts something out saying X number of droids, I'll still have to go with the source that has it...




    Ok, shutting up now....
  16. Vympel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2002
    star 2
    Well, if they did something so outrageous, my "protest" wouldn't be to come to every message board and forum on the 'net and complain about it and say how everyone else is wrong. (and this isn't directed at any one person, BTW....don't take this as a personal attack)

    Why not? They are wrong. The 5-mile SSD was wrong too. People complained. It was changed. Fans matter.

    If I want to protest something like this, I won't buy it. My money carries more weight than my voice in a case like this. Neither one of them individually will likely change anything, but if I gathered 1,000 people to yell at the top of their lungs, and another 1,000 people who would ordinarily purchase a $25 book, which do you think would get more notice?

    Since I don't patronize any of the offending sources, I'm doing this. Unfortunately it's a problem when it infects others in the continuity.

    The point is this: accept what you like, disregard what you don't, but stop trying to "convert the masses," for EITHER side. You want to believe there are 3,000,000,000,000 clones and 100 times that number of droids? Feel free! You might never see anything to directly support it,

    You don't need to. We know the scale of the galaxy, the clone wars, the industrial capability, etc and we have common sense. I don't need to be spoonfed such obvious facts visually.

    b Is it logical to assume this is all there were? No, of course not...

    Exactly.
  17. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    Don't take my post out of context. I support the 3 million clones because that's what LFL has stated as being the official number.

    As for the droids, I don't know. I'm falling back on Odds not because I have any preference to the author, but because I've just recently found out that NEGD was written well before Odds. That's not speculation, that's fact. As I've stated before, if something new does come out and contradict this, I fall back on the LFL's stance, not any particular author's stance.



    But that's just me...
  18. Vympel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2002
    star 2
    I know you do. I can't understand it and find it logically indefensible, but there you are.

    So what if it was? Didn't I already prove that even if we take the absurd claims of droid production in Odds as factual and take a bare minimum number of factories, then number of droids produced per day is in the billions, per NEGD? Odds doesn't contradict everything ever written that supports reasonable numbers simply because it exists. All Odds ever did was make a bunch of dubious and wholly unconvincing claims based on a conversation between some grunts.

    Not to mention that I don't particularly see what relevance it has when it was written. The predominance of sources- in number, in type of source (i.e. not the idle speculation of some fool Clones who found a data chip and leap to the conclusion that Mace Windu is conspiring with Palpatine to defraud the people of the Republic- funny how we missed that fact in RotS)- together with sheer common sense is firmly against Odds. We can now add NEGD to the group.

    Indeed it is. Note I'm not attempting to "convert" you, just telling it like I see it.
  19. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    Odds doesn't contradict everything ever written that supports reasonable numbers simply because it exists..... Not to mention that I don't particularly see what relevance it has when it was written.


    The reason I put the weight on Odds and emphasize WHEN it was written is because all of these pieces, yes, including the NEGD are vetted and approved by the same people. This means (to me, anyway) that the most recent information is the most accurate.

    This is an opinion that has seen me attacked in other forums, but I have to base my opinions on those people calling the shots. George Lucas has tasked the folks at LFL to keep the order, and I'm in no position to tell them they're doing their job wrong.

    I don't support one piece over another because of the by-line. I'm not a fan of KJA's Jedi Academy books, and I think setting up a school of all things on a WELL KNOWN rebel-base site would be an incredibly foolish thing to do. But the Academy was still on Yavin 4, regardless of my feelings, because it was approved by LFL and published as such.

    Let me reiterate.....this is not, for me, an issue over who wrote what. It's an issue of what was approved in what order. That's why I wanted to find out (and I did) the order of things being cleared through LFL. If an approved story shows up in the next Indider that has, say, Dooku and Grievous in coversation saying "Boy, we sure fooled those Null-ARCs. They think we only have X number of droids. Won't THEY be surprised when we block out the sun with our 14 quadrillion droids," then I'll accept that. I won't LIKE it, mind you, but I'll accept it...


    That's the difference I see between me and others. I can, will, and do accept things I don't like....
  20. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Forums are for discussing the subject. Negative opinions have as much a place here as positive ones.

    I don't buy books I don't like either. But of course, making this your only form of protest tells the company NOTHING about what they're doing wrong. :rolleyes: And we have the Executor's length as an example of fan criticism resulting in change.

    So debating an issue and explaining why you think a certain way is trying to force beliefs on people? :rolleyes:

    Great. Now there are millions of factories in the SW galaxy...that each take a full year to produce 100 measly B1 battledroids. Use common sense. :rolleyes:
  21. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    This assumes that the continuity checkers are perfect and never make mistakes, something that is OBVIOUSLY not true. And while Leland Chee stated that they consider how recent something is, it is NOT the only guideline they go by when resolving contradictions. Therefore, your method is all made up by you, without anything to stand on.
  22. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    Use common sense.

    What are you talking about? Common sense has nothing to do with any of this. You're talking about walking, talking (sorta) toasters that shoot ray guns at exact carbon-copy clones that all fly around in spaceships. What "common sense" applies?

    I can't speak for anyone other than me. Mr. Wallace has been kind enough to post in these forums, and I suppose I could ask on that thread, but I don't want to drag another author into another pointless argument that won't change anything anyway.

    Here's the point. You just accused me of not using common sense. That's a fairly personal thing to say after I've gone out of my way to point out that I really don't care HOW many droids there are. Odds was the last-known-approved statement on it, so that's what I come back to. Earlier I said if something else comes out to contradict this, I'll accept that too. (NEGD was written before Odds. I know this as a fact.) You obviously won't acknowledge the same, because you're still saying disregard Odds cause you don't like it.

    I like debate. I like discussion. I don't like being accused of being a non-thinking follower. I make my own opinions. But in this case, I can't tell LFL they're wrong. That's the height of arrogance. That's like telling someone they bought the wrong car because you don't think they fit well in it. That's not your call, and neither is this.
  23. Emperor3171 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2000
    star 1
    Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. It is not arrogant to point out an obvious, logical error and attempt to have it corrected. That is what we all should do, if we're wrong, then it should be explained. However, I've seen it debated, that is not what happened with the clone and droid numbers.

    First we had undetermined but massive numbers of clones and droids. Then this 3 million clone number jumped in and suddenly things didn't make sense. 3 million wouldn't be equal to the Red Army in World War 2. Yet it was beating a droid army in the quadrillions of droids with some massive kill ratios the movies never showed. So this was not going to work. So we then reduced the number of droids and got the Jedi involved in a conspiracy to trick the Republic and Senate. But the movies never showed the Jedi as trusting of Palpatine, much less his co-cospirators. So now we have this mess. But the number of droid factories is a positive sign. The Clone Wars were a huge, devestating conflict, not a brushfire over the 1 million worlds of the Republic with an army smaller than a single world could field, pre-space flight.

    Simply put, the 3 million clone army does not work. If you care about the quality of Star Wars EU material, it is important to point out these logical errors. Sorry for the rambling, but I've not had my coffee yet. [face_thinking]
  24. JediWampa Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2000
    star 3
    he quality of Star Wars EU material

    I don't see how this affects the quality of anything. You're talking about "off-screen" stuff that truly affects very little. If you can't suspend your belief when reading Star Wars, it may not be the thing for you, anyway.

    3,000
    3,000,000
    30,000,000,000

    As far as me enjoying the books and movies, all of these are valid numbers. If you want every nut and bolt accounted for, Star Trek is more particular about that kind of thing, but they want to be Science Fiction rather than Space Fantasy.




    And, aside from EVERYTHING else remains one over-riding fact....










    Lucasfilm says this is the number. This, therefore, is the number, until LUCASFILM, and no one else, says otherwise....
  25. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2006
    star 2
    What huge epic battles. RotS opening space battle 5,000 star ships. 2,500 Republic and 2,500 CIS after hours of fighting. ANH DeathStar I. ESB a SSD 19km long and 6-10 SD trying to capture one cargo ship. RotJ DeathStar II, 1 SSD, 1 SD com ship, Telator and 30-40 ImpStars vs. 4 HomeOne class, 10 winged liberty, and several other ships. TPM 3,000-10,000 TFB. AotC hundreds of thousands of clones millions of droids.
    As above major huge forces are always being used. That?s epic.
    With a back ground of epic battles.
    Interesting you basically ignoring most of the movies to get you not epic weird stance.
    I don?t by your nonsensical argument ether. So I guess were even. Amazing what hoops the Nano 3 million have to jump though to try to justify it.
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