ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)

Interesting you say you don?t know of any author but then state some below. All in an attempt to defend one author that contradicts the movie and EU.

What that no numbers should be stated. AotC says 1Unit=6 clones lower limit so 7.2 million clones within the first month. The 3 million is recontned by AotC.

AotC says lower limit 7.2 million clones within the first month. The only works of the EU that support the 3 million number are Odds and Triple Zero. Both from the same author and contradict the movies and the EU. So yes you should take the other EU and Movie authors over just one that is contradicting the rest. Were not using any fan site just hard Cannon numbers.

The official droid numbers are Quadrillions. Yes, NEGD suports Quadrillions and rectons Odds. It came out after Odds and was checked by LFL who are as you just said ?the folks who are paid by LFL to know this stuff?. So you must concede that the 3 million and low droid numbers have just been rectoned. If not you are a hypocrite.

Baiting.

AotC says lower limit 7.2 million within the first month. A crazy Null clone says 3 million. AotC wins if you didn?t know. G-cannon automatically wins in this kind of conflict.

GL might have something to say about this. Plus it contradicts G-canon. So no the nano 3 million does not fly.

AotC says 1Unit=6 clones lower limit so 7.2 million clones within the first month are you going to concede or are you going to play politics with out any canon support.

 

Ok, first off, back off just a touch. I've stated my opinion clearly without attacking you. I support the 3 million number because that's what LFL, the OWNERS OF THE BLEEDIN' MATERIAL say is the right number....


You make reference to only a few shots in the films. There are never, EVER "thousands" of ships shown in RotS. I wish there had been. That's what I was hoping for. It might be implied, but you're talking about things being SHOWN. The shots in RotS are too tight on Anakin and Obi-Wan to show much, and the very first opening shot.....c'mon, there's only so much room on a movie screen. There's a few dozen ships shown, at most.

Don't jump on me because you think you're right, or you think you're smarter than someone else. I've never done that. I've stated time and time again that if Lucasfilm decides to change their mind, then I'll accept it. You, as far as I know, are not Lucasfilm. Therefore, until LFL says otherwise, you're just wrong. Even if I'm stupid to think the way I do, at this point in time I still have the holders of the copyright on my side.

Now, I'm glad to discuss this, but this sort of bashing that you're doing, this is the reason this site had to start cracking down. You're moving down the same path, and I'm trying (and have tried a NUMBER of times) to emphasize that I'm not trying to change your mind. Back off, chill out, and DISCUSS things.

 

EDIT:

Sorry, had to take something down that I told someone I wouldn't bring up....gotta stick to my word, even if it makes me look like an @$$ here....

 

Yes, Odds and Triple Zero. The works in question.

It has more the 1 trillion number looks like land lords or permanent population. Your forgetting the huge clone army. At least 7.2 million within the first month AotC.

Considering it was a farm planet with only one small lab on it that?s a lot.

What kind of ships were these. Were the 1 million the activated one or just the crew of the ships.

He might be talking about they wont surrender Corescant and will fight until the planet was destroyed.

AotC says 7.2 million within the first month. So stop assuming that nano 3 million is correct and the droid numbers have to be smaller. No from all info the Republic and CIS were producing equal clone to droid numbers until the third year when the droid production started to exceed clone production.

They had bigger ships then just little ISD. See Dark Emperor. Plus the Empire would have quadrillions of Storm troopers.

Cannon says they had both. Droids are cheap. NEGD just came out saying huge droid numbers for the CIS, so no Odds is recotned. Canon does not support the nano 3 million.

So are you conceding to NEGD that says Quadrillions of droids for the CIS. Concision Accepted. The 3 million is dead. It only lasted a few months and was rectoned. That was fast. Plus it contradicted AotC for crying out loud.

I haven?t read it yet.

 

It utterly baffles me why people are willing to throw out every bit of EU they can because of one short story. And it's not even stated as fact in that story; it's the belief of a couple guys. And yet somehow people will look at that, then look at unambiguous out-of-universe statements in ROTS Incredible Cross-Sections, Lord of War, and the New Essential Guide to Droids, and say "No, the beliefs of a few guys in a single short story should override everything else". It's mind-boggling.

And it's not even based on real canon policy. Nothing says "The source that was written last, even if it was published first, is more canon than anything else." You have to wonder, how tenable is a position when it requires making up your own canon policy to support it?

LFL has also stated Inside the Worlds of AOTC is canon, which directly contradicts the three million. And, of course, every other bit of info that's been posted throughout this thread, but let's focus on this one in particular.

So now you know better then the VFX people who actually made the shot.

 

Ok, y'all win. I thought I heard the TF.N boards were going to be a little more regulated as far as personal attacks, but it looks like it's the SSDD. I post an opposing view and get jumped up one side and down then other.

For anyone who cares, if you haven't gotten yourselves banned, there are forums and blogs that author's like Dan Wallace and Editors like Sue Rostoni will answer your questions. I've asked questions, gotten them answered, but I don't want to be responsible for dragging someone into a pompous match over the number of fictional characters/machines in a fantasy world.


So you win. Brava, you've managed to give me a reason for another 2 or 3 year space between my posts.


And before everyone gets swelled egos when you talk about me being a "coward, running away," etc (and I have no doubt you will, here or on other sites), you didn't change my mind. You're still making arguments against what is stated, at this point, as fact by the powers that be, so you can keep yelling into a vacuum. It still doesn't change what facts are facts, AS STATED BY LFL...


Have fun pattin' each other on the back....

 

Who is doing this. The only one I can see is KT and Darkmoose doing that. But you wouldn?t protest something outrageously wrong. Don?t worry I?m not taking this personally and you shouldn?t ether.

I?m not buying any more SW stuff any more until this stupid nano 3 million is fixed and I have heard the same from many others. But if you don?t tell these guys that they are being radically wrong on something. How are they suppose to know and fix it if you don?t tell them.

So are you saying that you will override most of the EU and the Movies just to support one author. It is already obvious that you will not let any evidence persuade you and support the nano 3 million for no reason. In your mind the nano 3 million can never be wrong. No matter what.

Its what the movies and EU say. I don?t have to believe like you. I have facts.

AotC 1Unit=6 clones lower limit 7.2 million clones within the first month. Plus the other movies and EU. I have direct support. Unlike the nano 3 million which has only 2 sources from unreliable people. No direct support for the nano 3 million.

TPM 3,000-10,000 TFB. AotC 7.2 million clones withen the first month. RotS 2,500 VenStars, 100s of Outer rim seges, Clone troopers on every corner, multible battle fronts. ANH DeathStar I. ESB 1 19km SSD and 6-10 ISD to capture 1 cargo ship. RotJ DeathStar II 1 SSD, Com ship, Telliator, 30 ISD plus an equal amount of Rebel ships.

Each one showing masive battles which you ignore.

Other souses say there were more and we know that there were 10,000 JedI.

If this is so unimportant why are you defending the nano 3 million that contradicts AotC for crying out loud.

He don?t have to list an output level we saw what it was from AotC. Its about 2-6 seconds to finish a new droid. Ah, but you just sayed that if anything new came out rectoned Odds you will accept it and concede. But now your making excuses for Odds and trying to hand wave NEGD away.

 

Nothing personal but you haven?t bothered reading any of this debate. AotC says lower limit 7.2 million clones within the first month. G-canon is greater then C-canon. So the nano 3 million loses. LFL says NEGD rectons Odds. So no LFL does not support the nano 3 million.

Oh, but it was cheeked by LFL and came out after Odds. So it is newer then Odds. Odds is rectoned. It doesn?t matter if most of it was written before Odds it was given the ok by LFL after Odds. If you don?t concede this you are just taking Odds because of author preference.

Yes, NEGD overrides Odds.

I?m waiting for your concession.

 

NEGD was given the most resent LFL ok before coming out. So according to LFL it is newer and rectons Odds.

NEGD is the newest source Ok by LFL. So to LFL it is the newest sources. But continue jumping though hoops to support the nano 3 million.

Yes, you are. All other sources say otherwise. Like AotC 7.2 million within the first month.

So are you going to conced that NEGD rectons Odds. That what LFL says.

Yes, Odds then NEGD. So NEGD is newer and overrides Odds.

Yes, Odds then NEGD. But for some reason your trying to change time.

That?s what NEGD does and AotC says 7.2 million clones within the first mouth. Are you going to concede.

So are you going to concede that NEGD overrides Odds. That AotC overrides Odds. If not your just hand waving.

 

Wooh, fast reply less then a minute after posting. I?m not attacking you. I?m stating my opinion and facts. If your style of debate is ?this is my feeling?. That?s not debating. So far I have not once attacked or flamed you. If you can quote me attacking you let me know. So far you haven?t even started debating yet. The only thing you have done is ?I don?t like evidence against 3 million so I will ignore it?.

No, NEGD and AotC 7.2 million clones says otherwise. LFL does not support the 3 million number. Can you please debate this instead of starting over.

Yes, facts.

Wrong, the FX guys have stated 5,000 ships are seen. Pleas get your facts straight.

As above 5,000 ships. It was shown. I don?t care you want to ignore it.

As above 5,000 ships. Please stop the hand waving.

I am right. I?m just correcting your error.

Who?s doing this. Or are you. But anyway I have been known to use my computers calculator.

NEGD and AotC are you going to concede. They have changed there mind or that one error that got by Odds is being recontned.

I?ve never said I was. I?m insulted. Will you please stop pretending you are.

They have NEGD and AotC. No you don?t have the copyright holder on your side. I do. You do know how SW canon works. G-canon (movies) are greater then C-canon (books and other stuff) automatically. Odds contradicts AotC. AotC 7.2 million within the first week wins.

You haven?t started yet.

No bashing has happened. You don?t want to debate.

They have been cracking down (to hard) but I have not bashed you at all. If I have I would have been banned all ready.

When you want to discuss thing let me know. So far all your post have just been baiting.

 

No.

Yes, it has but since no personal attacks have been made. Stop lying.

What?s SSDD. I posted and opposing view and facts and you ran away not bothering defending your option. You were asked to defend your point with evidence and did not.

No one was making personal attacks. The only one that might be banned is you for trolling.

You protest to much.

No.

Why would we be talking about you on other sites. The only thing you have done is waste peoples time.

Considering in your mind the nano 3 million can never be wrong. That?s not a surprise. Since you didn?t even attempt to lay down an argument to change are minds.

NEGD and AotC says Odds is wrong. So no were not. You are.

Yes, LFL NEGD rectons Odds. No again.

Let's knock off the baiting, please. Consider yourself warned.

 

Everybody: cool your jets. Name-calling and baiting isn't allowed, and the debate is starting to get a bit too tense for my liking. If there's any "trolling" going on, we mods will handle it---not you. Both sides need to remember this.


Carry on. But keep the posts civil. Or else.

 

Interesting to consider how similar this is to the Endor Holocaust debate.

You have one bit of movie evidence that can be argued about, and 3 secondary sources that support one interpration. People hem and haw about it, and the end is people arguing Lucas' intent.

Yet unlike the Endor Holocaust debate, we have clear explicit statements from Mr Lucas, not what people think his intent was. And he was very clear that the Clone Wars had nothing and I mean nothing to do with Iraq. So the idea that it is suppossed to be a massive misleading bit like Iraq is outright destroyed by Mr Lucas' statements.

 

I would simply like to ask that you provide your own rationale as to why the clone army is 3 million, beyond that of Traviss's works.

Given the overwhelming evidence that has been presented from multiple sources which easily support a clone army that must number a thousand thousand folds larger than 3 million, I would think the debate would have been over by now...

 

We didn't see much of the insides of Venators beyond the command bridge. We don't know whether the people in the engine rooms, hangars, and so forth were clones or not. RotS didn't really say anything either way. Edit:Medstar stuff already covered

Acclamators carried V-19 Torrents in the beginning of Clone Wars Chapter 10. Either you're wrong, or they weren't Acclamators Is. If they weren't Acclamator Is, than the "3.2 million troops at Muunilinst" idea is nullified, as we don't know the troop capacities of other classes.

Well, he didn't ask for permission.

Most likely, yeah. But that's very deliberate phrasing on my part.

No, but that's my point. There aren't any examples of Imperial Army or CompForce troopers attacking any planets either, but they still are supposed to outnumber the stormies.

No, it's not a direct contradiction. It's an implied contradiction. The EU isn't wrong, because the contradiction isn't explicit.

So you're just throwing out sources that disagree with you? The units=clones thing was an ongoing thing for the NEC.

No, but you do burn the galaxy with BDZs and the like, which aren't relevant to anything in Odds. Billions alone probably died at Humbarine, which didn't even involve any infantry fighting. The unacceptably devastating fighting was a part of the story.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't say "at one point" in regards to this. He was talking about the present, not the past.

That's not what it says.

 

If battle droids are weaker, it's easier to defeat them in combat, thus making it easier to win engagements.

They aren't *required* to destroy any droids. Their actual goals don't directly involve droid destruction. Droid numbers are effectively unlimited.

Hence the continued efforts. They were getting there.

The investment was continuing to fund and supply the Nulls, and letting them do pretty much whatever they wanted. The Republic was unwilling or unable to closely direct them. Only Skirata's boys actually go on these missions.

That was during the Outer Rim Sieges. One of the two times in the war I said they were engaged in more than one or two major battles at the same time.

It doesn't help, but it doesn't disprove anything either. Politically motivated shakedown cruises were not unheard of.

Like I said, the Y-wing didn't exist as of the Clone Wars. The Essential Guide says it's "several" years older than the X-wing and the TIE fighter.

Y-wings did have hyperdrives, but they didn't fight during the Clone Wars.

Actually, you do need projectile weapons to be a bomber, by definition. Anyways, laser cannons are fairly useless against countermeasures like shields or reinforced construction. I've never seen strafing work on a strategic level.

I'm not saying strategic bombing is neccesarily useless. But blowing up factories faster than the CIS could build them wouldn't work, as the CIS could build factories cheaply and quickly, and the Republic would be hard-pressed to actually locate, travel to, and destroy the factories without overextending. The war simply wasn't that simple. And doing the effective thing wasn't a priority for the high commands of either side.

 

Man I leave for months and its like I never left. Still spitting out the same beaten arguments in an attempt to win via "stone deaf". It doesn't mater how many times you are told the answers you just keep denying them. No new information or support for you either, and still more for us.

Flat out wrong. The Imperial Sourcebook says the stormtrooper corps outnumber the Imperial Army and Navy combined

None of this was in the comic.[/quote]Incorrect. He talks about it with Shak Ti.

You say the Republic Commando game says that, but I have not seen any evidence. Regardless, Fett himself says he's training 100 ARCs in Triple Zero.[/quote]Yes, 2 months into it. Plenty of time for it to be expanded. Plus others could train them as well, which we know happens - look at the Nulls. And then the NEGtD has 2 platoons of ARCs attacking a single factory, and 3 being killed. So that's 96 dead out of 128 in a single strike. Overrules the "100 ARCs" business pretty throughly.

Arguing from ignorance. Doesn't fly.

[quoteLtNOWIS]

Unless the units=clones idea is correct. No other sources say it isn't.

Like I've said, the movie doesn't say that Lama Su didn't mean 200,000 clones. The idea that "units" always equals 7 clones is not true just because you say it is.[/quote]Right we just see it, but clearly it isn't true because it would be bad for you.

And the movies shows that is wrong. Movie wins. Any questions?

 

Why did you edit out my accepting his Concession. He just conceded.

Again why did you edit out my accepting his concession. Also let me state again that there was no bashing or flaming. Just this guy accusing everyone of bashing and flaming. Which I would consider baiting.

Again why did you edit out my taking his concession. What do you mean no again LFL NEGD did recton Odds droids numbers. Please explain to me. Very slowly if you have to.

Please explain to me how I am bating and not JedIWampa. Basically all his post were baiting and not debating.

 

You were calling him a troll, which amounts to baiting. (It just so happens that the concession thing was in the same sentence.) He may be annoying to you, but he is not truely trolling yet. He's giving his opinion; you are giving yours.

For the record, I've spoken to Wampa about it. Your post was much more obvious baiting, so I edited it. If you feel that someone's baiting or is a troll, PM a mod, but don't call them out on it.

 

Ok, it seams pretty cool to me though.

No name calling happened but ok. JediWampa did accuse a lot of people of name calling though. Which they didn?t, but JediWampa did a lot of baiting.

Just for my own understanding. Was JediWampa trolling or not. Or was it just spam baiting. I get those confused sometimes.

Ok, I will carry on being civil.

 

>>>No name calling happened but ok. JediWampa did accuse a lot of people of name calling though. Which they didn?t, but JediWampa did a lot of baiting. <<<

You called him a troll in an inflamatory matter, which wasn't necessary, and which I took to be baiting.

>>>Was JediWampa trolling or not. Or was it just spam baiting. I get those confused sometimes.<<<

It was a very, very mild form of trolling, and I've spoken to him about it. End of story. If he acts up, action will be taken. Same goes for you.


What, in particular, in JediWampa's posts do you consider to be trolling, StarKiller? (Just curious...)

 

Yes, that?s not name calling that?s what he was doing. That and baiting.

How.

That still doen?t answer why you edited out may taking his concession after he conceded. You could have just edited out the ?Troll? part.

Well he did make me waste a lot of time since he never ever replied to what I wrote to him in a debate and he would just hand wave my argument away. Because of course he was right and never can be wrong.

So you are saying he was a troll just a little one. Ok, so he?s a baby troll. Got it.

Then he would hand wave my opinion away because of course he?s always right because he can never be wrong and no evidence like G-canon overriding C-canon matters.

Ok, good. He also PM me and was very insulting.

So my supposed baiting was more obvious to his border insulting baiting. Ok got it. Other Mods have told me before that its ok to be border line insulting before and its ok. I?ll try to be more border line baiting in the future.

Ok, I will. Its just that his baiting went on for more then one page so I thought it was Oked by the modes. You know endorsement by omission.

 

>>>Yes, that?s not name calling that?s what he was doing. That and baiting. <<<

Where? Show me, because I must be missing it.


>>>That still doen?t answer why you edited out may taking his concession after he conceded. You could have just edited out the ?Troll? part. <<<

Yes, but the entire sentence was rather condescending, so it was removed.


>>>He also PM me and was very insulting. <<<

We can't do anything about PMs. If they're so insulting, don't read them.

>>>So my supposed baiting was more obvious to his border insulting baiting. Ok got it. Other Mods have told me before that its ok to be border line insulting before and its ok. I?ll try to be more border line baiting in the future. <<<

No.

>>>Its just that his baiting went on for more then one page so I thought it was Oked by the modes. You know endorsement by omission. <<<

Come on. We can't be everywhere at once, no matter what the rumors say.---even mods need sleep or have to go to work. If there's something wrong, PM us and we'll take care of it as soon as possible.

 

Did I. I didn?t write it in a inflammatory manner. So was your editing out my taking his concession baiting because it was not necessary.

Ok, it was trolling. Thanks. So my calling him a troll was right just not in the way I implied inflammatory manner, Ok. Thanks for letting me know.

Him not replying to point raised and just starting over. He wasn?t even really trying to debate. If that not baiting and trolling I don?t know what is. My definition of a troll also includes spamming. Also his accusing everyone of bashing him and flaming him was trollish. Since no one was. Except for my implied baiting at the end.

 

From what I can tell skimming over the posts, Jedi Wampa was very defensive from the start and did ignore calls for evidence.