Official 9-11 Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KnightWriter, Jul 21, 2002.

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  1. Hatter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, it really annoyed me when I'd hear about all these people who turned to prayer on 9/11. Stuff similar to, "I was in Green Bay, Wisconsin when the towers fell. I didn't know what to do, so I fell to my knees and began to pray."

    Jeez. Try looking inside of yourself for some strength, not begging to some invisible diety to make it all better.
  2. Southernjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2002
    star 4
    A sculpture in Rockeffeller Center was covered up after complaints about it.....
    It was a sculpture of a naked woman plunging to her death, a "tribute" to 9-11 victims.

    Sculptor Eric Fischl said it was not meant to hurt anyone.

    Umm, can anyone say the words "In bad taste?" Really inappropriate. How degrading, how thoughtless, to the families of 9-11 victims, victims of a horrible, horrible crime. Not to mention an insult to human decency.

    Does anyone agree, disagree?

    story here
  3. Lordban Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    I will disagree, especially when the CNN article bites its own tail and says 9/11 depiction should put an emphasis on the horror of what happened.
    This sculpture, by itself, is a testimony to the horrors that took place. It is not a photograph nor a video, no. It's not a depiction of someone who died on that day (to the extent of my knowledge, at last - I doubt anyone who's lost a loved one would willingly agree the proposal to idealise so the death of that loved one.)
    But the fact is, in some way, they form a better memento of what happened. This sculpture I could have shown my children rather early in their life, because it takes away all the violence children's eyes need not see. If I showed them the live footage instead and let them to cope with the full extent of the event, and then let them access the knowledge of who and what "religion" was behind them, I'd raise my kids to hate Islam. And hatred never brought anything good by itself. It's destructive, and little else when the circumstances are not right.

    No, I'm not shocked by this sculpture. I don't think of it as an insult to human morals either. That's because I'm trying to put things into perspective. Surely, it won't do much good to us now. The sculptor's biggest mistake was to release it so soon, when the wounds are still fresh and our metaphorical flesh still throbbing with pain. But it's a legacy better suited for the ones who'll follow us, because they'll get to learn how low humans can sink when they learn the story behind the sculpture, and yet we'd avoid the pitfall of breeding entire generations into hatred of Islam, because we'd have conveniently forgotten that children (and youths and younger adults to some extent) have an easy time generalizing things, just to soothe our own pains.

    That we should not do. it's our duty not to forget, for such things have to be prevented in the future. But to stop our own children from doing the same, we'll have to make them forget. And that's the reason why there's nobility in this sculpture.
  4. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Yeah, it really annoyed me when I'd hear about all these people who turned to prayer on 9/11.

    What in the world could possibly be 'annoying' about people you don't personally know praying to a God you don't personally believe in?

    Jeez. Try looking inside of yourself for some strength, not begging to some invisible diety to make it all better.

    Jeez. Try letting people acquire their inner strength however works best for them. Just because you don't understand something is no reason to ridicule it as baseless.
  5. Eternal_Warrior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2002
    " I see all you who morne the loss of the people in new york and washington on 9-11 and it makes me think. I have seen the poor people, the victims and their familiys potrayed not as human beings, but as americans by the media, just as they did in pearl harbor. It evolved from one man killing another, to a nation attacking another, the people we lost there became statisitcs in the long line of "americans who died". I see them as human beings, my fellow man, and I remember...... The black plauge, the holocaust, stalingrad, the war tourn trenches and fields of france, those masacured during the crusaids, the bay of pigs, vietnam, the civil war, the revolutionry war, the korean war, the titanic, the american cruise liner sunk by the german u-boat, midway, hiroshima, nagasaki, normandy, Iraq, columbine, the sack of rome, oklahoma city, the trail of tears, custerds last stand, and 100s upon thousands of tradgedies in which so many innocent lives were snuffed out and so many futures buried in the sands of time. This I remember."
  6. Red_Oktobur Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2001
    star 6
    Jeez. Try looking inside of yourself for some strength, not begging to some invisible diety to make it all better.


    Do not make fun of something you don't understand.





    Does anyone else realize that WTC Building #7 collapsed as well due to strong fires and stuff? What was the deal with that?




    ...and a Jango
  7. CarbonKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2002
    star 4
    Fiery Debris and structural damage caused it to collapse. The fire inside was really intense..

    I read that a building over 4 blocks away has structural damage and needed to be evacuated recently.
  8. Bubba Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 5
    I had decided to visit Ground Zero again annually during my trip to New Jersey, and it had certainly changed since last year.

    Most of the tributes, poems, and pictures from people around the world were torn down for preservation.

    In their place were vendors of all sorts. Selling hats, trinkets, books, pictures, everything to get a buck off of the tragedy. I even heard one talk on their cell phone: "Have you made a dollar there? I haven't been able to make anything here." Verbatim.

    I broke down. I tried holding back the tears, but everywhere I turned, I saw more shameless merchants selling more items.

    And then I turned to the wall of comments from all over the world. I didn't try looking specifically for these, but they jumped out at me: "Kill all Palestinans [sic]," "Semites, take your war elsewhere."

    I left as soon as I could; I couldn't take being near this painful site made even worse by the greedy and ignorant.
  9. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    That must have been horrible, Bubba.
  10. JediRedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2002
    star 1
    Humans are by nature greedy; no better way to make money then off people's grief.

    Not being in the US at the time I don't ahve a completely accurate view but in all the footage I saw the crowds were waving flags and wearing badges that featured the falg.

    Merchants made money out of them. Just a (very cynical) thought
  11. Bubba Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 5
    That must have been horrible, Bubba.


    It was, thanks. :( I'm rather frightened to go back, now.
  12. Dusty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    We're going up there in March/April for a school trip(band). Going to Washington and New York. If it's as bad as you say it is, the band teacher would have to pry me off of the neck of one of the vendors.
  13. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Sadly, I don't think that's a new development. Many vendors have been exploiting 9-11 ever since it happened. I saw T-shirts with pictures of the WTC and American flags on them at a street fair the weekend afterwards. Businesses started displaying the American flag not so much as a symbol of patriotism or respect but more as a way to convince customers that they, too, cared.
  14. TheBoogieMan Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 6
    This is not just in the U.S.

    would you believe, that about a month after the attacks, i was in Thailand, and i saw vendors on the street selling T-Shirts with Osama bin Laden on them? needless to say, i was shocked!
  15. Dusty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    I've seen it going on in stores and such also... but AT the World Trade Center site? That just pisses me off.
  16. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Oops... forgot to mention that I'm a New Yorker and that it was at and around Ground Zero that I saw those things. It is very sad, but it's a consequence of greed combined with the fact that NY is a very expensive city to live in and many residents will do anything to make a buck. If some of those vendors would otherwise be, say, homeless people picking pockets in Times Square or mugging others in dark streets, then I have to say I'm glad they're instead manning a souvenir stand downtown. It's the lesser of two evils.
  17. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Today, country singer Darryl Worley released a new song, inspired by the events of 9-11 and his experience with our troops in Afghanistan during the holidays. Evidently (from what I have heard), when he returned home, he heard several people complaining about our soldiers in Afghanistan. In response, he joined with a friend to write these words:
    I hear people saying we don't need this war
    I say there's some things worth fighting for
    What about our freedom and this piece of ground?
    We didn't get to keep 'em by backing down
    They say we don't realize the mess we're getting in
    Before you start preaching
    Let me ask you this my friend

    CHORUS 1
    Have you forgotten how it felt that day
    To see your homeland under fire
    And her people blown away?
    Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
    We had neighbors still inside
    Going through a living hell
    And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden
    Have you forgotten?

    They took all the footage off my T.V.
    Said it's too disturbing for you and me
    It'll just breed anger that's what the experts say
    If it was up to me I'd show it every day
    Some say this country's just out looking for a fight
    After 9/11 man I'd have to say that's right

    CHORUS 1
    Have you forgotten how it felt that day
    To see your homeland under fire
    And her people blown away?
    Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
    We had neighbors still inside
    Going through a living hell
    And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden
    Have you forgotten?

    I've been there with the soldiers
    Who've gone away to war
    And you can bet they remember
    Just what they're fighting for

    CHORUS 2
    Have you forgotten all the people killed?
    Some went down like heroes in that Pennsylvania field
    Have you forgotten about our Pentagon?
    All the loved ones that we lost
    And those left to carry on
    Don't you tell me not to worry about Bin Laden
    Have you forgotten?

    Have you forgotten?
    Have you forgotten?
    Personally, I have not forgotten. I can never forget that my father would have been in the Pentagon that morning where the plane hit. I cannot forget my former Den Mother (from Cub Scouts) who was killed in the Pentagon.

    I agree with this song wholeheartedly. I predict it will hit number one within the next few weeks. It is already a hit with our troops.

    Kimball Kinnison
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    And so the design has been chosen, apparently.
  19. Darth-Schwartz Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    the new design sucks. i'm sorry but they look like crystals from the superman movies lol. if putting the worlds money in the worlds tallest buildings was stupid the first time; it's realy stupid the second.
  20. JediBeowulf Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 3
    I think the design is going to get the old 'Episode I: The Phantom Menance' treatment; meaning that no matter what they choose, it isn't going to be good enough for some people. But that's understandable, I suppose - we each would like to see something different for the design, and perhaps we already have preconceived notions of what the new buildings should look like. But in the end, someone needs to choose a building and get to start on it...otherwise we'd be sitting around discussing it in committees for 10 years.

    Personally I love the design.

    EDIT:

    Here are some pictures of the design, if you haven't seen them:

    Skyline
    [image=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/p62fe5074434c212e442a3210b3807706/fc93ec55.jpg.orig.jpg]

    Plaza
    [image=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/pd1237707dd7a396787e65f0bea41be10/fc93e56d.jpg.orig.jpg]

    [image=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/pd28ecaebb191ad62be0a937ac027c2e5/fc93ebee.jpg.orig.jpg]

    [image=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid53/pcddc356334fbee805f61e892ab4cf065/fc93ebf0.jpg.orig.jpg]


  21. scum&villainy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 1999
    star 4
    I'm not sure I like the ImageStation logo. And where's the Statue of Liberty relative to the big Orange thing? ;)



    Here you go:

    Cityscape
    [image=http://members2.photofun.com/subsonic/iTOOLImageGallery/wtc2.jpg]

    Streetscape
    [image=http://members2.photofun.com/subsonic/iTOOLImageGallery/wtc33.jpg]
  22. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Considering we are only a month away from the second anniversary of the attacks, I thought it was time to up this thread to see people's reactions.

    Kimball Kinnison
  23. Dusty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    Oh, and since its up, I was at Ground Zero a couple months ago and I noticed that the Port Authority had signs up banning vendors and flyers and stuff in the vicinity of the WTC site.
  24. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    9-11 report slams the FBI

    The attacks represented an intelligence failure, and a failure of our homeland security. Much has been improved, especially outside of the country, but there are still serious gaps in intelligence and homeland security which haven't been addressed or, in some cases, recognised as problems.

    ...The report criticizes the Pentagon for resisting military strikes against Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan prior to 9-11, and the CIA for failing to pass along crucial information about Almihdhar and Alhazmi at a terrorists? summit in Malaysia. But the FBI gets the toughest treatment. A few months after al-Bayoumi took them to San Diego, Almihdhar and Alhazmi moved into the house of a local professor who was a longtime FBI ?asset.? The prof also had earlier contact with another hijacker, Hani Hanjour. But even though the informant was in regular touch with his FBI handler, the bureau never pieced together that he was living with terrorists. The bureau also failed to pursue other leads, including a local imam who dealt with several key 9-11 figures. The report, one congressional investigator said, ?is a scathing indictment of the FBI as an agency that doesn?t have a clue about terrorism.?



    The Intelligence war
    ...When asked to name the "one thing" that "kept him up at night," more than any other specific threat the Pentagon confronts, Rumsfeld replied with no hesitation: "Intelligence."

    ...Less than nine months later, 9-11 occurred, a tragic intelligence failure.

    To lay all the blame on our intelligence and police agencies, however, is foolish. A shared political failure also rates condemnation. We must also acknowledge our enemies' cleverness. Al Qaeda, with brutal clarity of purpose, exploited security gaps in America's open, hi-tech society.

    The congressional inquiry into FBI and CIA actions before and after 9-11, issued last week, examines that nightmare in 858 pages of detail. What I've read strikes me as a fair and honest effort, though redacting material covering Saudi Arabia's role in those events is a huge mistake. The historical import of that alleged malfeasance demands we see it.

    The report addresses the Clinton administration's political failure "sotto voce," but the tracks are there, beginning with the 1993 World Trade Center attack. The report says: "Whether and when the intelligence community as a whole recognized that bin Laden was waging war on the U.S...is an important factor in assessing the community's response to the threat..." Key Clinton staffers pointed to the August 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in East Africa "as the moment" they knew bin Laden was at war with America.

    Credit President Clinton -- he acknowledged the hard fact. The report's myriad analyses of bureaucratic tangles, however, indicate a continuing lack of focus. This strongly suggests a major disconnect between presidential rhetoric and effective executive action.

    The report harps on "the absence of a comprehensive strategy." U.S. intelligence gathering and analysis is often fragmented, in part because the intelligence community is intentionally fragmented. Yet there's wisdom behind the fractures. Splitting CIA, FBI, and other intelligence organizations chops a potential Big Brother into a competitive gang. The sleight of hand defends the Bill of Rights, protecting us from our protectors.

    The open society wants it that way -- except in war, when agencies must fuse capabilities. A terror war, with a demonstrated domestic threat, further disturbs an open society's balance of freedom and security.

    The report's recommendations are a commendable attempt to find a balance point. "Unauthorized disclosure" of information must be weighed against "excessive classification." "Standards of accountability" relating to "personal responsibility, urgency, and diligence" must be implemented.

    Are we implementing? I'm told
  25. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
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