Official 9-11 Thread

Riku -

"And why do we blame USA? Because it started this war, years ago."

You are correct .... to a certain point of view. The U.S. and the C.I.A. helped to train the Afghans in military training back in the late 1970's into the 1980's in order for them to fight off the Russians and help with the U.S./U.S.S.R. "Cold War." However, our plans backfired on us and those who commited the acts of 9-11 were in one way or another, directly or indirectly, trained by the U.S. and the C.I.A.

"...but it is only stupidity to say, that it was the largest civilian destruction ever. USA did Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

Ummm ... those bomb attacks cannot nor should not be compared to attacks by the U.S. on those cities in Japan. Those bombs were dropped during a time of actual "world war" and if you don't remember your history, I'll be happy to remind you of this tiny little fact: The U.S. was attacked first .... by Japan and its forces. Remember Pearl Harbor? My grandfather does .... and he like many other grandfathers fought not only Japanese forces, but those of Nazi Germany. What would you have done? Sent Japan a fruit basket?

The U.S. was NOT at war with those who commited the terrorist attacks on 9-11. But we (the U.S.) will defend ourselves ... and we're at war now. I took a Terrorism class this summer and one thing that I learned more than anything else (and something that I tell everyone that I speak to about "terrorists") is that they do not want negotiation. They do not want surrender. They do not want anything .... including whatever their so-called 'plans' call for. They are 'group-identified' individuals who cannot exist outside the group. They are intelligent, well organized, well financed by others, and although they seem 'rational', they are not. Their plans consistantly change because to "succeed" would be the end of the group. It's a psychological problem that they all share in common.

Let's say that the U.S. went into negotiations with Osama Bin Laden and his Al-Quida network, organization, army, group, whatever you wish to call them. They would not come. They would not negotiate. They would only want one thing .... for the U.S. to completely surrender itself to whatever they wish for us to do. And still to this day, no one knows for sure what "that" is ... do you know what it is?

"What other nation rebuilt enemy states it had defeated in combat and helped them get back on their feet? And then defended them against other aggressors."
Your answer: Umm... I must say that I have a big black hole in my knowledge. Could you give me an example of this?

After WWII, the U.S. helped to rebuild Japan and even assisted in Europe if I'm not mistaken. Not to mention the fact that the U.S. over the past several decades has given millions of dollars to help Mexico rebuild its economy, helped Irsael to defend itself in an area of the world where all of their neighbors wish them to get out and/or die. Want more? Read your history books .... search on the Internet ... take a class on U.S. history.

"What other nation provides equal rights for all people, regardless of what they believe or what they look like?"
Your answer: Here I must disagree. Although there officially is equility among all the people in USA, there's still heavy racism there. You only remember the good sides of USA in your message. Where did questions like "What other nation has used atom bombs to destroy its enemie's civilian targets?" or "What other nation has started KKK?" go? To a Finn, that message of yours was almost like propaganda.

Ummm ... actually, "racism" and "prejudices" exist all over the world and in many, many forms. Europeans I've found discriminate as well ... against those in different countries who live differently than themselves. Want an example? Try looking in the mirror. This is not an attack, but instead of making fun of others, take a look at some of the feelings that people are trying to express here.

And the white, Euro

 

The US did contribute to the rebuilding of Germany, but I imagine that was primarily because the Soviets were on the other side of town.

 

"Give me an example of mass murders committed by the US. I was referring to Hitler, who killed 6 million Jews, millions of other captives and whom we helped stomp flat..."

I think that the best examples are Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As I see it, the word 'terrorism' refers to an act, which is made to a civilian target, during a war or during a peace, that is irrelative to this term. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian targets. I know that Japan first hit the Pearl Harbour (haven't seen the movie, though, I've just heard it's full of propaganda), but that was a military target. The reason for you to use atom bombs were to scare Japan to surrender.


Um, most of western Europe, and Japan as well. It's called the Marshall plan.

Oh yeah, that I forgot. I agree.

Every time there's a major hurricane, flood, whatever, we gladly give aid. We send aid around the world. We don't want anything back from that, though a simple thank you would be nice.

I still can't remember USA giving aid for free. But, then again, those news may be irrelative to Finland, and may not reach our newspapers. You maybe right, I don't know, this off-topic, anyway.

Yep, we used them [atom boms] long, long before most living Americans were around. I'm not proud of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

And at this point you started to babble something about Japan. The target of those bombs is very irrelative. The fact is, that the reason not to use an atom bomb at this time, is that many nations have now nuclear weapons also. The entire globe could be destroyed by those, so of course, everyone's afraid to use nuclear weapons.

As for the KKK, it is a hate group that was created here; Nazism was created in Germany; al-Qaida was created in the middle east. There are many hate groups created in the U.S. and in many other places around the world.

Ok, I agree, that point was bad. I withdraw that argument.


Unfortunately, this is all the time I have now. I'll be writing more in the evening (its now 12 am in Finland).

 

who killed 6 million Jews

It was in fact 5 million Jews not 6 million. I've no idea where you get your facts from...

The reason for you to use atom bombs were to scare Japan to surrender.

Actually they dropped the bomb because US wanted that Japan surrendered to them instead of U.S.S.R.

What other nation was first to allow the common man to denounce the government or other prominent people?
We were the first democratic nation

Ancient Greece perhaps? Greece was the first nation who had democracy... (they invented it)

What other nation provides equal rights for all people, regardless of what they believe or what they look like?

Pretty much every English speaking and European country (there are exceptions of course)

 

God, i'm so sick of the "U.S is the first and only democratic nation, U.S is the only place where everyone has freedom" bullcrap. Almost every European country fits into these categories too. I mean, are you trying to show how ignorant you can be????

 

Actually they dropped the bomb because US wanted that Japan surrendered to them instead of U.S.S.R.

The US was not interested in a conditional surrender by Japan. We went into the war with the goal of defeating them and we did.


And once again, for the umpteenth time, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were indeed, military targets. Hiroshima housed the Mitsubishi plant, which produced a considerable amount of Japan's war material and Nagasaki housed Japan's ship yards. Both, were military targets.


And before someone starts screaming about "loss of civilian life" go read a book on either the Bataan Death March, the occupation of the Phillippines by the Japanese or the Rape of Nan King. Then we can discuss loss of citizen life.

 

If that was the real target, you would have sent in airplanes to take it out. There is no justification for Heroshema. Your kidding yourself if you think there was. The effects can still be felt there today.

 

We did send airplanes. How do you think the bomb got there? Boat?

And your kidding yourself if you think that you have a better understanding of the issue than those who fought the war.

 

Not to get off on a WWII tangent, but if the USA really wanted to do alot of damage to Japan, they would have dropped the bomb on Tokyo.

 

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were indeed, military targets

Are you really sure about that? I know you're a Professor. But history IS written to please a group of people or a powerfull nation.

And I don't think that Americans want to read about their nation bad stuff.

Besides why did you dropped 2 nuclear bombs? One was enough...

they would have dropped the bomb on Tokyo.

Well that wouldn't be handy, because the entire ruling body of the goverment would be dead, so Japan would have a been an anarchy

 

Are you really sure about that?
Yes, I am. Hiroshima was also the headquarters of the 10th Area Army.

I know you're a Professor.

Yes I am, I have graduate degrees in History and Political Science.

But history IS written to please a group of people or a powerful nation.

Then why are their historians in "non-powerful nations"?

And I don't think that Americans want to read about their nation bad stuff.

No body does, but we still accept it.

Besides why did you dropped 2 nuclear bombs? One was enough...

Why did Japan not surrender after the first one?

We waited 3 days to drop the other.

If it hadn't been for the civilians overthrowing the military, and placing the Emperor on the radio to inform the people that the they must surrender (with the Emperor able to keep his throne), the war would have gone on.





they would have dropped the bomb on Tokyo.

We did more damage bombing Tokyo than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

But history IS written to please a group of people or a powerful nation.

Then why are their historians in "non-powerful nations"?

If you have a degree in History (which I am working on, BTW) then you should know the three historical viewpoints. There is the standard view, that is written by the winners or most dominant. Then there is the revisionist view, written by the losers or the least dominant. Finally, you have the counter-revisionist view, which usually takes at least 10 years to appear. It is the view that is closest to the truth. That is why nothing is considered history until it is 10 years old.

The bombing of Hiroshima was wrong, and anyone who is not blinded by patriotism can surely see that. Headquarters for the army or not, that was a city, with innocent people. 3 days was not enough for the bombing of Nagasaki. At the time the Nagasaki bomb fell, the government was still investigating Hiroshima, and they believed at the time that it was many small bombs that caused the carnage. It was only after Nagasaki that they realized what they were up against. Nevertheless, they were already discussing surrender. The USA did not give them enough time. They wanted the war over fast, before the Soviets could create another Iron Curtain in the east.

Anyway, there is already a thread for Hiroshima/Nagasaki debate.

Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Tokyo. Dresden. Hamburg. What do all these cities have in common? They are all cities, filled with innocent people, that were levelled or almost levelled by the United States Air Force. There are dozens more that were damaged in a less severe way. America accuses the terrorists of being evil for targetting civilians in war. That is true. The terrorists are evil. But, Americans must understand that their government and their military have committed atrocities far worse than Bin Laden could ever imagine.

Make no mistake about it. 9/11 was a great tragedy. I don't think anyone would dispute that. But, I believe it is important for America to look at why such evil acts were committed against their civilian population. It is even more important for the government to look at why they were committed, and change their foreign policy to decrease the amount of anti-Americanism in the world, so that terrorism against the United States does not continue. It is clear that the government has learned nothing from this. There has been more killing, more bombing, and soon, more invasions. The War on Terror is not making America any friends. For every terrorist killed, another is inspired by America's attacks to become a terrorist.

Americans are finally feeling the pain that their government and their military has caused in other countries. Nobody should have to endure that pain. That is why I am so keen on America changing their foreign policy. But, like I said, it's not happening, so there will just be more hate, more death, and more pain. It's a vicious cycle.

 

If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11,
> > > please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost
> > > in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks. While we're
> > > at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi
> > > civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another
> > > moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the
> > > streets.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by
> > > Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam
> > > Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all
> > > its power against Iraq.
> > >
> > >
> > > Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans
> > > killed by troupes supported and trained by the CIA.
> > >
> > >
> > > Plus 10 minutes of silence for 300,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima
> > > and
> > > Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.
> > >
> > >
> > > We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans
> > > killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims
> > > throughout the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all
> > > those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to
> > > admit. The US went to another continent thousands of miles away and
> > > burnt tens of thousands of Vietnamese peasants with napalm.
> > >
> > >
> > > Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked
> > > poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands
> > > more dead.
> > >
> > >
> > > Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA
> > > embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.
> > >
> > >
> > > Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by
> > > US-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay,
> > > Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone
> > > may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were
> > > killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was
> > > there even any retaliation?
> > >
> > >
> > > We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their
> > > vulnerability and the attacks and other tragedies that they have
> > > caused around the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers, maybe
> > > even more!
> > >
> > >
> > > What about the 560,000 Iraqi children (as per current UN data) who
> > > have
> > > died as a direct cause of the US supported sanctions against Iraq? Are
> > > these the children of a lesser God?
> > >
> > >
> > > What about a new generation of nearly one million Iraqi children who
> > > are currently having their lives being ruined by improper nutrition,
> > > lack of medicine and inferior education because of US supported
> > > sanctions.
> > >
> > > Now, let's talk about terrorism, shall we?

 

This issue is becoming clouded, so I shall reply to this in WWII thread

Sincerly

Master-Aries
(MA)

 

KaineDamo,

Yes, death is a horrible thing. Yes, the United States has participated in many wars in it's short lived history. Yes, the United States military is reponsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths worldwide. Do you think that Americans enjoy that? Do you think that "rubbing our nose" in it is going to solve anything? Perhaps you would like to run down the brutality present within your own country, presently and historically? Don't be so quick to judge, it is very easy to take the high moral ground while sitting on your duff and allowing the worlds problems to continue.

 

Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Tokyo. Dresden. Hamburg. What do all these cities have in common? They are all cities, filled with innocent people, that were levelled or almost levelled by the United States Air Force. There are dozens more that were damaged in a less severe way. America accuses the terrorists of being evil for targetting civilians in war. That is true. The terrorists are evil. But, Americans must understand that their government and their military have committed atrocities far worse than Bin Laden could ever imagine.

Make no mistake about it. 9/11 was a great tragedy. I don't think anyone would dispute that. But, I believe it is important for America to look at why such evil acts were committed against their civilian population. It is even more important for the government to look at why they were committed, and change their foreign policy to decrease the amount of anti-Americanism in the world, so that terrorism against the United States does not continue. It is clear that the government has learned nothing from this. There has been more killing, more bombing, and soon, more invasions. The War on Terror is not making America any friends. For every terrorist killed, another is inspired by America's attacks to become a terrorist.

Americans are finally feeling the pain that their government and their military has caused in other countries. Nobody should have to endure that pain. That is why I am so keen on America changing their foreign policy. But, like I said, it's not happening, so there will just be more hate, more death, and more pain. It's a vicious cycle.

You left out the fact that the RAF participated in the attacks on Hamburg and Dresden and was the first allied nation to begin a strategic bombing campaign against Nazi Germany, but of course you seem keen to blame the USA for all the evils in the world so I am not surprised. And the reason the USAF was bombing these cities because the governments of these nations were fanatics who wished to impose their will on their neighbors and to conquer large swaths of territory.

You leave out the facts that the Japanese began their attempted conquest of China in 1931 and their invasion of China culminated in the Rape of Nanking, which led to the death of 200,000-300,000 civilians and to the rape of 25,000 women, that they enslaved thousands of women in Korea and China to be "comfort women", that they performed deadly experiments on prisoners of war, that POWs died at a significantly higher rate than that of those in Nazi Germany POW camps, and of course the fact that it was the Japanese who began the war with the United States. Japan was not some helpless victim that was taken by the US, instead it was bent on conquering large parts of Asia and was intent on killing and enslaving the people who inhabited those areas with no concern for their well being. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unfortunate events in human history, but these events were a bitter pill that had to be swallowed. They forced a fanatical government to surrender, and saved Japan from being devastated by a ground invasion from the US in the south and possibly from the USSR in the north. Not dropping those two bombs would have possibly condemned half of the Japanese nation to rule under a communist government and left them like other communist governments an economic wreck. Dropping those bombs also saved the lives of countless members of the US armed forces who would have died on the beaches of Kyushu and Honshu. You say that only those blinded by patriotism will say that those bombings were not wrong, but perhaps those blinded by anti-Americanism cannot see why it was the unfortunate but correct decision to make.

Dresden and Hamburg, what to say about them? Well, you might as well list every major German city because the Allies bombed them all. You could also mention that the government controlling these cities had murdered millions of people, had invaded and conquered neighboring countries, had enslaved thousands of people in labor camps, and was a fanatical totalitarian regime.

 

There is the standard view, that is written by the winners or most dominant. Then there is the revisionist view, written by the losers or the least dominant. Finally, you have the counter-revisionist view, which usually takes at least 10 years to appear. It is the view that is closest to the truth. That is why nothing is considered history until it is 10 years old.

I would disagree; history takes longer to weigh than 10 years.

The bombing of Hiroshima was wrong, and anyone who is not blinded by patriotism can surely see that.
We've tussled over this action before, my friend, and we are still at a stalemate. Do you wish to revisit this tired old argument?

Headquarters for the army or not, that was a city, with innocent people.
I agree, it was a city, full of innocent people. The Japanese should have thought about that before declaring war on the US. Because we all know that the US did not lose any civilians at Pearl Harbor. Nice of them to line up their ships in a row and separate the military people from the regular citizens.

3 days was not enough for the bombing of Nagasaki. At the time the Nagasaki bomb fell, the government was still investigating Hiroshima, and they believed at the time that it was many small bombs that caused the carnage.

There is also the school of thought that they thought we had expended our entire of supply of bombs on that one target. Nevertheless, it isn't that hard to through in the towel. The fact is the military did not surrender until the civilians in the government of Japan forced them to do so.

It was only after Nagasaki that they realized what they were up against.
The historian Richard B. Frank uses Japanese resources to illustrate that Stalin was stringing Japan along to further his owns desires. He never had any intention of brokering a true armistice.

Nevertheless, they were already discussing surrender.

Conditional surrender, with terms that were more akin to a Japanese victory than admitting they were defeated. The US was not interested in terms of that nature.

The USA did not give them enough time.

Once again we differ, three days is enough to know you have been defeated.

They wanted the war over fast, before the Soviets could create another Iron Curtain in the east.

The Iron Curtain was not in place then. The Cold War had not yet begun. We did want the war over fast, as estimates of Allied casualties if Japan had been invaded approached 1 million (casualties includes wounded and killed in action).


Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Tokyo. Dresden. Hamburg. What do all these cities have in common? They were all targets of a war.

They are all cities, filled with innocent people, that were levelled or almost levelled by the United States Air Force. You need to use a small a for air and small f for force, as the USAF was not established until 1947.


London, Nan King, Stalingrad, Iwo Jima, the Philippines. What do all these cities have in common? They were all cities (or islands) that were demolished or damaged by the war.

There are dozens more that were damaged in a less severe way. America accuses the terrorists of being evil for targetting civilians in war. That is true. The terrorists are evil. But, Americans must understand that their government and their military have committed atrocities far worse than Bin Laden could ever imagine.

It's a vicious cycle.

Yes it is, and one that cannot be helped. How do we know that had we not interfered in areas that we did, and did not act in the ways we did, that the events would not have been worse than they are now.


We don?t.


If you could go back in time and kill Hitler, would you? How do you know that Hitler?s ascension to power did not hinder Stalin?s goal of world domination? We don?t and we never will.

 

While we're
> > > at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi
> > > civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another
> > > moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the
> > > streets.
PPOR, I've yet to hear of any such thing.




> > >
> > > Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by
> > > Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam
> > > Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all
> > > its power against Iraq.

Bad choice on our part, I'll admit that.



> > >
> > > Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans
> > > killed by troupes supported and trained by the CIA.

Y'know if the Russians hadn't decided to violate the soverignty of Afghanistan in their failed attempt to invade the country, then maybe their soliders wouldn't have died there.


> > >
> > > Plus 10 minutes of silence for 300,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima
> > > and
> > > Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.
I covered this in my previous post



> > >
> > > We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans
> > > killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims
> > > throughout the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all
> > > those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to
> > > admit. The US went to another continent thousands of miles away and
> > > burnt tens of thousands of Vietnamese peasants with napalm.

I can admit problems with our behavior in Vietnam, however we were attempting to defend an ally, South Vietnam, from Communist takeover. It isn't like we decided to napalm people just for the heck of it.




> > >
> > > Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked
> > > poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands
> > > more dead.

PPOR



> > >
> > > Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA
> > > embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.
> > >
The amazing thing is Saddam can give $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers and can bulid palaces, but somehow he can't find the money to feed his people? And of course the US is too blame. As for Castro, y'know he isn't very angelic. Perhaps if he didn't imprison political dissidents or if he gave his people ecomic and political freedom things wouldn't end up like this.



> > > Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by
> > > US-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay,
> > > Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone
> > > may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were
> > > killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was
> > > there even any retaliation?

PPOR



> > >
> > > We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their
> > > vulnerability and the attacks and other tragedies that they have
> > > caused around the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers, maybe
> > > even more!
> > >
> > >
> > > What about the 560,000 Iraqi children (as per current UN data) who
> > > have
> > > died as a direct cause of the US supported sanctions against Iraq? Are
> > > these the children of a lesser God?
> > >
> > >
> > > What about a new generation of nearly one million Iraqi children who
> > > are currently having their lives being ruined by improper nutrition,
> > > lack of medicine and inferior education because of US supported
> > > sanctions.

Again, if Saddam can find the money to pay $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers and build himself palaces, why can't he not find the money to feed his people? And, oh yeah the reason those sanctions are in place is because he invaded Kuwait.

 

There is no doubt that the U.S governement is as much to blame as Bin Laden on what happened 9/11. Listen, I think that the US is a great country but its governement is as corrupted as others. The problem with Amrica today is it's trying to control the world...indirectly it's trying to be the Roman empire...not by invading countries but by using economical, political and military ways. This is how it works with America.."it's my way or the highway!"...or "as long as we need you no matter how evil or corrupted you are, we will help you out...and when we're done with you we will get rid of you!"

Ironically we have created some of those "threat to the civilized world" people ourselves. We armed, trained and helped Saddam during his war against Iran... Why? Cause Iran was supported by USSR...we used Saddam as a tool...it didn't matter that he always was a dictator! We did the same thing with Bin Laden....
We say that Saddam is a dictator and a danger to his OWN people...guess what? So are some of our so called friends! Egypt is a huge dictatorship with no human rights..same with Saudi Arabia and Jordan! But yet they're our friends! .....Because we need them right now! We say that Saddam is violating UN sanction.... Guess what? Israel has been violating UN sanction for 50 years!! We don't do anything about it! And what about Cuba? And North Korea?? and Even China to a certain extend!...How come we don't do anything about it? WE only react to what concerns our economics and our own politicians goods!.... The US government is not trying to help the world nor is it trying to even help its own citizens....it only cares about itself!...And it's this arrogance and the ignorance of the great american people that's fueling the Anti-American feeling throughout the world.
It's not because they're jealous of us...it's not because they're affraid that we're gonna take over their culture, it's not because they envy our freedom..... It's because they're tired to be bullied.
I think that in the past 50 years America has changed a lot... it's going against its own morals and values...today our politicians only care about what's good for them...not for the American people! We have consistently been inconsistent! We have the most double standards when it comes to international politics!...And that moron Bush is not helping out.... All he cares about is to keep the american people ignorant and in fear so he can be re-elected!

let the flames begin!....

 

While we're
> > > at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi
> > > civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another
> > > moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the
> > > streets.
PPOR, I've yet to hear of any such thing.

That is because it is not true.




> >
> > > Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by
> > > Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam
> > > Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all
> > > its power against Iraq.

Bad choice on our part, I'll admit that.

Would it be worse for the entire country of Iraq and all of its citizens to be slaughtered by Iran and see the creation of an even larger Iranian presence in that region? And let us not forget who supplied the Iranians with training and weaponry.

Oh, but that is right, communism good, capitalism bad.

> > >
> > > Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans
> > > killed by troupes supported and trained by the CIA.


Y'know if the Russians hadn't decided to violate the soverignty of Afghanistan in their failed attempt to invade the country, then maybe their soliders wouldn't have died there. True, so true.


> > >
> > > Plus 10 minutes of silence for 300,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima
> > > and
> > > Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.
I covered this in my previous post

And the number is around 150,000 at the most liberal manipulation of the casualties.


> > >
> > > We've just kept quiet for one hour: one minute for the Americans
> > > killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania, 59 minutes for their victims
> > > throughout the world.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all
> > > those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to
> > > admit. The US went to another continent thousands of miles away and
> > > burnt tens of thousands of Vietnamese peasants with napalm

Ah, once again, the evil United States involves itself in fighting communism, when everyone knows communism is a perfect system. How dare they fight against that!




> > >
> > > Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked
> > > poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands
> > > more dead. I know the United States Army is efficient, but WOW! We did that all in three weeks! Cool!

By the way, the estimate is around 4,000. Most killed in the crossfire.


> > >
> > > Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA
> > > embargoes on Iraq and Cuba.
> > >
How is Cuba?s embargo affecting the way of life for Castro? Same with Iraq. He still is one of the biggest exporters of oil, how does he do it? And why are his people still suffering if he has so much money?


> > > Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by
> > > US-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay,
> > > Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).
> > >
> > >
> > > Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone
> > > may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were
> > > killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was
> > > there even any retaliation?

PPOR


I agree, PPOR, but I know you will just say you don?t need to do so, as the email you have quoted here speaks for itself.

 

"let the flames begin!...."

Ironically, your entire post is an extensive flame of America and American ideals and then you post the above line as an attempt to preempt any counter. Nice.

Where was this Anti-American sentiment while our boys were being slaughtered on the beaches of Normandy? Where was the cry to "stay out" and "mind your own business"? No, you can't have it both ways. In one sentence profess your weakness to defend your own soil and in another complain that the United States is interfering with Global matters.


EDIT:

Maverick,

"Same with Iraq. He still is one of the biggest exporters of oil, how does he do it? And why are his people still suffering if he has so much money?"

True. Iraq's exports of oil are currently nearing the peak levels it enjoyed prior to the Gulf War and any imposition of sanctions. But, again, somehow it's the US that is killing Saddam's citizens, right? Right. Some of you are so anti-American that it is down right deplorable. Despise our ideals if you must, just realize that our ideals will not change and unlike you, we are willing to fight for what we believe, openly. We will not stab you in the back or wage secret Fatwahs hiding in caves and under the skirts of figure-head dictators.

 

and ironic that you^ start thread to flame
-----
-Comic Book Guy

 

Y'know, i predicted i was gonna get replies like that. I will make another post in a minute, but first of all all i have to say is: Never Forget!

 

Well done on your post Jedi_icicle, it?s always great to hear from an American who isn?t blinded by its government?s continual lies and who can see the country for what it is? a bully!!!

 

Has anyone noticed that Pingonedown sounds suspiciously like KaineDaimo?


A sock perhaps?

Y'know, i predicted i was gonna get replies like that.

Then why, pray tell did you post it? I could post emails all day as well to no avail, but I don't. I would have thought you had finally realized that that action is frowned upon here. Apparently you haven't.