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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

****Official Choreography Contest Voting****

Discussion in 'Fan Films, Fan Audio & SciFi 3D' started by DaftMaul, Dec 8, 2002.

?

****Official Choreography Contest Voting****

Poll closed Dec 13, 2002.
  1. Clip 1

    13 vote(s)
    11.5%
  2. Clip 2

    1 vote(s)
    0.9%
  3. Clip 3

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  4. Clip 4

    34 vote(s)
    30.1%
  5. Clip 5

    2 vote(s)
    1.8%
  6. Clip 6

    61 vote(s)
    54.0%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ryan_W

    Ryan_W VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Maybe we're all on different wavelengths here and maybe I just can't let some things go when I should, but to all you guys who thought the ground fight was silly... Let me propose a scenario:

    You're lying on the ground 3 feet from me. We each have a lightsaber. Go ahead try to get up.

    What's that? I'd slash your legs? Hmmm. Okay, sure maybe I'm being a bit over the top. Alright, say I slice at you and you block in the process of getting up.

    What's that? It's a little hard to get up with one free hand while trying to defend yourself from repeated strikes?

    Okay, makes sense. Obviously you've got to devote a little effort to getting me off you back for 2 seconds so you can kip up.

    Huh? You can't kip up like I can??? (no, I'm just kidding now) But my point is that your own defense comes first, which means blocking... at the cost of standing up. And you can't block forever, you've got to attack. So what have you got? A fight.

    Dorkman tried to get up and rather than get up myself, I lunged at him to knock him down, and myself in the process. I figued might as well keep him in uncomfortable terrain, style-wise (ont he floor).

    After that, the rolling shot; What doesn't make sense about this? I'm rolling away from him, he's rolling to persue, thinking he can hit me as I roll, but I block each time. After a few rolls of blocking his hits, I realize that's no good and resume trying to fight an opening in Dorkman's defense.

    Who knows if a real fight would be anything like this, but to us and a lot of people I've showed it to, they followed this logic and it made sense.

    Oh, and somebody way up there asked about the scortch mark. I wondered when that was gonna come up. :D The scortch mark is a dry-erase marker sketched on and then immediately rubbed in (to give it a softer shape) covered and surrounded by coffe bean powder rubbed into the fabric, diminishing as it gets farther from the dry erase black core.

    So yeah, I smelled like coffe the whole time. :)
     
  2. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I agree with Ryan wholehearteadly. I was surprised and captivated when I saw the groundfight that Ryan created and loved it, especially the rolling dolly shot. But not only does it make cinimatic sense but just ask anyone who has learned to fight like it occurs in street fighting. 9 times out of 10 the fight goes to the ground. I personally would like to thank Ryan for pionering this new vein of lightsaber fighting because I doubt this is the last time we will see it.

    Oh, and quick question for you Ryan, did you write the fight to have you be a padawan style fighter fighting a more experienced master style fighter? Becuase watching your clip Scott seemed to fight more elegantly while you fought more naturally, lunging at your oponent. Also, you facial features showed the signs of agression that a novice fighter has when caught up in the fight. I really enjoyed the differing styles of fighting the two of you used. Many films have tried to use fighters with different styles but this was the only fanfilm that really showed it.

    EDIT: and how come no one has been talking about sage's clip? I really thought it was inventive even though it wasn't done with as well as the others. I mean really, who else would put a man in a hawian costume at the end of his film, Genious!
     
  3. Sage_Halcyon

    Sage_Halcyon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2002
    You mean it wasn't compressed as well as the others, right?....Right?!? ;) Oh well.... I like Cookies. Just thought I'd throw that in there...

    Sage H.
     
  4. Ryan_W

    Ryan_W VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2001
    WhisperingDeath and anyone else who was wondering: In terms of style we basically did whatever we felt like doing. We just wanted to go for our own unique thing. Like this is Ryan over here and this is Mike over there. Now they're gonna fight. We even went with fairly regular clothes that help sterotype us as ourselves (I wore completely regular clothes I always seem to be wearing in my clips :) )

    Mike wanted to go for the one-handed approach with his fighting and I stuck with the old two handed. Anything there in terms of style was just our own thing. If i tend to do strong stabbings and thrusts and what not, it's my thing I guess I do. If Mike looks like he's into more of a "least movement possible but deadly" Crouching Tiger thing, that's his style. We definitely didn't discuss or plan it... it's just how it came out. :) We just choreographed what we thought would be cool and sort of let our styles bounce off each other.

    The original idea was to have the fight extremely even with nobody really beating the other outright in the choreography. As it ended up, Mike usually got in the last hit or ended the set of moves and with his more restrained personal stly made it look like I was having to work harder to hold my own. Again, just how it ended up. I'm not really supposed to be losing, per se. But I really like people's take on it though... interpreting it as a challenge by a padawan and stuff. :)
     
  5. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Heh, that is awsome that so many fanfilms have tried to create different styles for their combatants and you guys did it for real, much more convincingly.

    I never thought you were losing the fight but notice how you lunge a lot and throw yourself at mike durring the groundfighting phase, moves that a master wouldn't use. In the context of the film, I felt that Ryan's character was fighting what Jeet Kune Do calls 'naturally' doing what he needs to survive, whereas mike fought very technically and giving off a sense of conservation of movement.

    It is through this blend of technicality and natural human instinct that your film's fight really gains depth, definatly a reference file that I will study.
     
  6. No-ShadowKick

    No-ShadowKick Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2002
    If anyone wants to know , my clip was purly just for laughs . We didnt have time to do it any better so we decided it was just going to be funny .
     
  7. Jeriah

    Jeriah Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2002
    As the debate about strict choreography versus overall presentation has been going, there is a difference between the two as WD brought up. However, I'd estimate 50 to 1 odds that the majority of the forumusers that have voted are more than likely looking at the overall presentation versus straight choreography. Yes, the presentation would subtly sway people, but if that's not what they're looking for, it wouldn't have as much of a lull as it does.

    The reason I believe people are picking on the groundfighting in RvsD is because overall presentation-wise, parts of it slows down the fight, then speds up, slows down again, the finally catches up to speed more than the audience wants/is used to (Compared to the rest of the fight). This creates a foreign rollercoaster of pace/flow and thus bothers the viewer. Does Ryan have his reasons for doing what he did? Yes, he does (Someone could debate the ground fighting issue, but this is your choreography, your fight. No one has the authority to tell you what you should have done). However, the way it was presented didn't have the effect he wanted with the audience.

    As for the statistic of 90% of fights resulting with both combatants on the ground, that's because amateurs aren't good enough to finish the fight on their feet that they have to result to "kicking a man when they're down." Not the most honorable thing to do, but who said fighting is honorable? Not to mention that amateurs are the ones who do most of the fighting. I've heard the best fighter is one who doesn't get into one.

    And you guys really know how to butter them up. Pioneered a new genre of fighting? Not hardly. They weren't the first and I doubt they'll be the last. Lightsaber groundfighting's been around for awhile. Just because it wasn't in a SW film, doesn't mean that you're the first to use it. They just put their own twist on it and made it longer than most.

    And please stop looking at any of these fanfilms and think they have to follow logical sense. In their defense, it's a fight. It sort of hard to concentrate on anything except staying alive. Besides, real fights don't last beyond the first few attacks unless both sides are not serious about fighting, are both weak, or are defense coordinated, in which case, bust out the sleeping bags, it's going to be awhile. These fights last this long because they are choreographed. It's a dance on film with swords. So they can get away with anything. Not to mention, since they're jedi, any ridiculous move anyone thinks up is viable since the character was "using the force" to predict the next attack. It's just there to wow the audience. Please stop thinking that you can watch these films and know what it's like to battle in the real world. Shades, in the real world, you'd be more likely to get shot then get into a swordfight.

    As for the AOTS resubmission. Not too much difference in the speed. The biggest thing that I noticed were the parts that were slowed down before are not longer slowed down to wow the audience since they go by so quickly, by the time you realize it, it's long since past. The dramatic effect of the cuts that were slowed down was surprising to me. Thanks for honoring my request and I apologize for not being of more assistance.

    Like I mentioned earlier, I'm judging and picking at people dancing, not fighting. Otherwise, I'd find these submissions laughable for all the wrong reasons.
     
  8. Darth_Knight

    Darth_Knight Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 17, 2002
    WD, thanks for reposting my review and doing the markups. I"m still prety new to these boards, and didn't know how to do that. (I just copy/pasted from Word.)

    Comyn, (or anyone else who might know the answer to this) when will the panel of "professionals" be looking at the clips and making their decision?
     
  9. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Darth Knight - No problem man. Oh, and there is a little link at the top of every page that says 'markup codes' you can use as reference. Unfortunately we are in a version of HTML here so Word markups will not apply, you need to do things like and to get your phrase bold and so forth.

    Jeriah - I agree with everything you said, except for the groundfighting bit. That is something I have progressively began to not like about american audiances, they are always second guessing the screen. I would venture to guess that close to none of the people in this forum have ever been in an actual fight yet they complain that one of the combatants isn't fighting well enough. And really, realistically fights are over in a matter of seconds! Also, you are completely right that fighting in real life is in no way shape or form honorable. In JKD our primary targets are the two softest spots on the human body, the groin and eyes. Tell me how honorable blinding someone and then kicking them in the groin until the pass out is.

    However, I never stated that Ryan and Mike had "Poneered a new genre of fighting" but I do think that they innovated. To my knowledge they are the first ones to incorporate groundfighting into a lightsaber fight, could you tell me where I can find a film of someone who has done it before?
     
  10. DorkmanScott

    DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Jeriah: I too would be interested to see another fan film that incorporates groundfighting. While I agree it's hardly a new genre of fighting, it is, as far as I know, previously untried in the choreography of a lightsaber fight.

    Also, to DarthKnight about the sabers hitting the floor: I was responsible for the rolling shot and the three shots following. While I considered very strongly the addition of scoring on the floor, the fact is that those shots were all hand-held, and would have been prohibitively difficult to track and get the effects done in time for the contest.

    Also, because we use the same small area of space and see the ground in a number of shots, continuity would require that I track the scorch marks to their proper location in each following (and the majority handheld) shot. We didn't plan to scorch the floor as we did Ryan's leg, so all in all I'd rather have a slight oversight than a huge headache.

    There are a number of times in the prequels that a lightsaber hits the floor, and it's not indicated by sound or visual effects, so at the first at least, it's not noticable.

    M. Scott
     
  11. GSW-Startide

    GSW-Startide Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Yep, When Obi 1 tries to cut off Dark Maul legs at the very end of their fight, there is NO trace of the lightsaber in the ground. Same thing for maul watching Obi Wan hanging and *smashing* (don't know how to say that) the edge of the vent...
     
  12. Jeriah

    Jeriah Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2002
    Several fanfilms have incorporated groundfighting in the past. However, they don't have the same twist that RvsD had in their submission. I can recall many moments where one jedi/sith knocks the other to the ground, and the opponent will either attack while getting up or attack to buy enough time to get up. Typically, most fighters see being knocked to the ground as a bad thing and thus try to recover themselves as quickly as possible. The lightsaber is essentially an extension of the body of the wielder so whether they use a punch, kick, hold, or lightsaber, it's still groundfighting. As for an example... A TFN film that I can think off the top of my head that uses groundfighting is broken allegiance (Probably uses the most as well. Second only to RvsD.)

    WD okay, you didn't say genre. You said, "...to thank Ryan for pionering this new vein of lightsaber fighting..." That just sounded like your probable intent. English is tricky that way isn't it? However, as I've stated earlier, groundfighting isn't new to SW Fanfilms. But the twist they used is unique to them (Which I acknowledged in a previous post)

    Also, I have a few questions for you WD.
    "...that is awsome that so many fanfilms have tried to create different styles for their combatants and you guys did it for real, much more convincingly." Are you suggesting that others use different styles, but don't do it for real?

    "...lunge a lot and throw yourself at mike durring the groundfighting phase, moves that a master wouldn't use..." And how would you know what a master wouldn't use? Do you presume yourself to be master and since you wouldn't do that move that no master could or would?

    "It is through this blend of technicality and natural human instinct that your film's fight really gains depth, definatly a reference file that I will study." ... ... ... This is a personal question, but are you one of those people who can find a meaning to everything? I must be insensitive to those things, but I'd personally ask you what crack are you smoking and where may I get some? Because it looks like some high quality stuff (I don't do drugs by the way. That's just a joke). That statement has me at a loss for words. The only sense I can make out of it is that although their fighting is above par of most SW fanfilms, the "natural instinct" are the many parts where their movements look awkward and unrefined? As for technicality, I'm not an expert in the area. If a combatant's style looks ugly, but still kicks your arse. It's obviously a better "style" However, I refer to "style" as the means they use to fight and it's their mental capacity and physical skill that defeats you, not the "style" itself (eg praying mantis, crouching tiger, JKD, etc.). I just know what I like to see.
     
  13. DorkmanScott

    DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    One more comment about our clothes:

    We briefly considered dressing in Jedi/Sith costumes, but when we decided to play up the idea of the two of us going at it, we abandoned that in favor of playing ourselves, and that meant dressing as ourselves.

    And despite what our presence and work here on this board may have led you to believe, we don't wear Jedi robes on a regular basis.

    M. Scott
     
  14. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Jeriah, if this was in any other context I might think you were trying to insult me...

    1) My point is that some fanfilms (the one that comes to mind is BA) have tried to teach their combatants to fight differently but it is never a very noticable factor in the film. Ryan and Mike however, just used whatever felt natural to them and without trying created a fight in which both combatants fought with a seemingly distinct style.

    2) My point was that while Mike used a sense of conservation of movement, Ryan used a lot of lunges and large moves. As I have stated before, he fought with a more 'natural' self preservation style as oposed to Mike's moves. And for the record, no I do not presume to be a 'master' at any martial art, please do not patronize me.

    3) The reason I will be studying this fight is because it is an excelent fight scene without resorting to technicality. The reason I will be watching this film and studying how they pulled it off is because both of them are not swordsmen yet they create a brilliant fight. If you did not enjoy their scene then I suggest you go watch Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and stop pestering us.

    Currently, I am working on choreographing a fight between 10 non swordsmen. Although I do watch various hollywood fights, my actors can not do any high performance moves. I am then left with a limited in my number of variations of the same basic hack and thrust in my fight. Watching a two minute fight that gets my adrenaline running between non swordsman is very exiting for me since this is at the level at which my actors will perform. If I was Ang Lee with millions of dollars to spend on casting, I wouldn't need to worry about such things. Unfortunately, I am an 18 year old high school student struggling to meet the cost of costuming 10 actors.

    Go out and make a lightsaber fight and prove how pitiful Ryan's film was and how stupid I am for enjoying it. Until then, I would suggest that you should keep quiet on matters of which you have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  15. Master_Comyn

    Master_Comyn Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2000
    Only on weekends, right?

    And to answer a previous question:

    The judges should be looking at them this week. Their decision may take some time, but so far I've got results in from Plurimus and Lord_Rive. Three more to go, fellas!
     
  16. Darth_Koga

    Darth_Koga Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2002
    Even though the voting is over I would still like to congratualte all competitors for the nice work they've put in.

    I did notice there was way too much of "clips 4 and 6 were both good, but 6 had better fx, etc" -attitude [then saying]:-"so im gonna go with 6" wasn't this about CHOREOGRAPHY? oh well.

    Oh and WD, I read EVERY post and I don't recall Jeriah bagging on your interest in RVD's film or thier film alone so chill.
    Also, you CAN do better with 10 unexperienced people more than you think. You're a martial artist, you CAN train them. Yes, you dont have millions like Ang Lee, but it was the trainer not the money that made Zhang Xing-yi so good. She had NO martial arts experience at the beginning, but they trained her and she did well.

    Even though the votes were already casted I think clip 4 should have won simply because their choreography had better attention to detail. (then again there are little "mess ups" in all the films; it's the ones that stand out the most)- in comparing AOTS vs. RVD, in RvD's scene where it was easy to point out Dm's poor posture in a couple places when they clashed together. Though there was a 'slip' at the last second of a frame in AOTS, it was cut right there and less noticable.

    Anyway keep the excellent videos coming folks! why stop? they're all fun to watch- competitions or not.

    DK a.k.a CHAMELEUS
     
  17. Jeriah

    Jeriah Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2002
    WD, if this was in any other context I might think you were trying to insult me...

    As for the "master" comment. You just said that a master wouldn't do that move. I just asked how you knew. A more direct answer would be nice, but at least you're humble enough to admit where you're mistaken.

    Also, I don't recall saying that I disliked their fight sequence. In fact, there are numerous times where I've stated that their scene was one of the best out there. There are others that I consider even better, but RvsD isfar from being even half as mediocre as many that I've seen.

    And although AOTS uses "higher octane" moves as you might put it. That's not the reason that I believe it's better than RvsD, in my opinion. Their execution was better and easier on my eyes. When I see a hand misplaced, or a shuffle that "shouldn't" be there, it makes me flinch to a degree. AOTS knew where every step was going to go and didn't falter in it's exectution. RvsD, although very good, had parts where a little more polish in certain areas would've put them on the same field.

    Also, I don't recall calling you stupid. I'm just adding my own observations and my own opinion. I'm entitled to it as much as you are yours. I apologize on your behalf that you take this thing so seriously. To me, it's just entertainment. The industry caters to what the audience wants. As a member of the audience, there are certain things that appeal to me more. Being a form of entertainment, I look at this very lightly. I could go deeper, but that requires too much work and would make the experience less enjoyable. Perhaps someday, you'll understand where I come from.

    As for your own production. Good luck with it. It's a lot of frustration, devotion, and the 3 salts (Blood, sweat, and tears for those who haven't heard of that saying before.) And although you may not be able to make all 10 of your "non-swordsmen" to look like Jet Li on speed, why does that matter? To paraphrase Freud, a slash is still a slash and a thrust is still a thrust. As long as your actors put enough effort into it, "feigning" skill shouldn't be impossible. All the skill in the world won't work without enough enthusiasm.

     
  18. scudknight

    scudknight Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2000
    It's kind of disheartening to see such bickering in this thread. We should be viewing these clips as a community, not with sarcasm. It almost makes me wish this choreography competition not exist (at least this thread) although i love every entry in some way.

    You see we set the example for others, and look! by that examples and other threads you have people mocking TFN.

    The "Fanfilm" forum ;)

    So show these and other morons out there that there is a reason why TFN is the best. Just chiiiiilllll......... there is NO master here.

    I end this quote with a wonderful use of english from the above thread -

    I believe the reason TF.N Fanfilm board is getting STUPIDER is because the average user age group is getting younger.



    sigh......


     
  19. Darth_Koga

    Darth_Koga Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2002
    but who is it you speak of that is younger?

    i think everyone here can agree we are all mature adults? hmm k yes? no?
     
  20. GSW-Startide

    GSW-Startide Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Sudknight : U R right, TFN is not the best GSW is :D lol I wish that could be true ;)

    "I believe the reason TF.N Fanfilm board is getting STUPIDER is because the average user age group is getting younger."

    Remembers me a joke of me (hard to translate BTW) :
    "The more you go less fast, the faster you re getting more slow, or not ? whatever :D"
     
  21. Jeriah

    Jeriah Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2002
    "It's kind of disheartening to see such bickering in this thread. We should be viewing these clips as a community, not with sarcasm. It almost makes me wish this choreography competition not exist (at least this thread) although i love every entry in some way.

    You see we set the example for others, and look! by that examples and other threads you have people mocking TFN.

    The "Fanfilm" forum

    So show these and other morons out there that there is a reason why TFN is the best. Just chiiiiilllll......... there is NO master here.

    I end this quote with a wonderful use of english from the above thread -

    I believe the reason TF.N Fanfilm board is getting STUPIDER is because the average user age group is getting younger.



    sigh......"

    Wow, you are so elegantly mature. On a whole separate level above us that you can look down at us so easily. Must be nice. Now, I might be new to this concept of free speech, but I think it's my, and everybodies, right to act like a moron if they so choose to. Would you not agree? I don't see anything in the TOS that says "Users can not be morons." Otherwise, most of us wouldn't be here. I'm an idiot and proud of it.

    I feel that your entire post is based around us not "libeling" the image of TFN in other forums. As if the opinion of another in another forum (which consists of many morons just like it does everywhere else in the world) makes it goddess' truth. This thread was intended to vote and discuss the submissions of the choreography contest. Some people are better at constructive criticism than others. What's the problem? I'm having a good time.

    What's the easiest solution for you? I think since we're so beneath you and moronic imbeciles, then stop listening to us. It's easy, just turn around and walk away. It takes the bigger man to do that, right? Of course, since you're above us, I doubt you'll even read this, Skudknight. And I honestly hope you don't. For if you were, it'd be a sad sign. You'd become just like us.

    I'll end my ranting with this quote.
    "Never argue with an idiot. He'll only drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience."

    It may behoove some to heed those words. But I won't force you. I broke that rule somewhere in my 2nd to 3rd post and I still won't shut up. Because it's my opinion. I never said I was right. I just said that I BELIEVE that I'm right. Two different concepts. And I think you're correct about one thing. I am getting tired of all this bickering. Now watch. I'll just walk away.
     
  22. MoffJake

    MoffJake Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2001
    In AotS there's a spiffy move where the sabers are clashing and the dual saber flips the other lightsaber around and the other duelist catches it. It's at 47 seconds into the original clip. It's a very cool move but the more I watched it, the more it nagged at me. It seems like the dual saber guy made a good move against his opponent by taking the saber out of his opponent's hand (I guess that would be a figurative dismemberment) but then he controls his own dual saber in a way that drops the other saber right back into his opponent's hands. This wouldn've been a perfect opportunity to launch the opponent's saber out of the area and make an unobstructed hit.

    I suppose that if I looked closely at every single move I'd find something to nitpick (in this entry and others). It's a hard thing to have a sword fight where it looks like the duelists are trying with each swing to hit (and kill) each other and not each other's swords (I use the terms 'sword' and 'fighter' loosely - I'm as choreography uninclined as Joe Dirt).

    But if you're going to make such a spiffy move, there should be a logical purpose to it (other than eye candy). I've got the same issue with twirling a saber around your back/neck/etc, it just doesn't seem bery practical. Maybe the purpose of those sorts of moves are to keep the weapon in motion allowing the fighter to give the weapon more power or perhaps it's simply for intimidation purposes.


    (Thanks Abe)
     
  23. scudknight

    scudknight Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2000
    Hey Jeriah, If you'll notice, the quote comes from the thread, and not me. Now this part of me is not mad, I do not look down upon anyone on this forum. well, until now.

    Why make them right? I did read your whole reply, sir - and I think you mistook what I said.

    .......Now the other part of me is mad - don't take my lack of flaming as weakness - I have a hard time staying calm as it is. I'm not half as composed as the mods here.

    The best thing YOU CAN DO is walk away from it. I'd rather be the smaller man that that wins in both the verbal and the physical in the end. at least in this instance.

    You have been pointed to the soap, now bend over and pick it up so you can be cleansed. ;)

    I don't know maybe those guys are right, maybe there are a few morons on this board....

    Well, I know who I want to do my next choreography clip with, next?

    ***I think my bad side had more to say than my goos side...sorry guys.
     
  24. WhisperingDeath

    WhisperingDeath Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    Drop the dramatics ScudKnight.

    However, I do apologize for dragging this thread off topic with my petty bickering. Any further personal problems of mine will be handeled in PM.

    Now back to the topic at hand.
     
  25. scudknight

    scudknight Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2000
    Sorry WD, you're right, I just wanted to give you a chance to use the line someone used on you. ;)

    Wait a minute I never bickered! But I promise no more bickering!
     
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