1. A Message For Everyone:

    TCW vs. Rebels debates are not allowed in the Television forum. As in, discussions that descend into TCW/Rebels bashing/gushing will be subject to Mod action. Contrasting the themes, story lines, characters, etc. between the shows is allowed (welcomed, even). "Versus" debates/arguments, however, are a deal-breaker.

Clone Wars *Official* Clone Wars Continuity & Canon Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by flashbang, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. MakingStarWars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah, it follows some of the general plot. But Leia is with a rag tag team of Rebels in an Imperial Shuttle until the middle of the story. Obi-Wan and Yoda appear as Force Ghosts to scare the Emperor while Luke confronts them. The Ewoks live in a cave and stuff too. You can tell it wasn't a serious stab at getting it right. I think it was about getting something down to start working out the issues. I like reading those drafts to see if anything ever makes its way into The Clone Wars.
  2. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 5
    Firstly, I propose we ditch the EU designation for the purposes of this discussion, since nobody can agree on what the EU entails.

    Now, let me rephrase things. TCW does not operate within the framework of C-canon. This is true by definition and evident by observation.

    I think Lucas cares very much about G-canon and T-canon. I think he considers C-canon as R&D. It's like saying he doesn't respect his concept artists because he didn't use all their material.
  3. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 5
    In man-years, maybe, but how this elevates C-canon is beyond me. More time has been put in writing scripts for Days of Our Lives than was invested by Fritz Lang in making Metropolis, too.
  4. RC-1991 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    It's not fan fiction. Sue Rostoni doesn't peruse fan fic forums, see a random story, and say "oh that's cool! I think I'll slap a sticker on it and call it official!" LFL specifically seeks out authors and offers them the opportunity to write for Star Wars. Major EU works all have to pass GL's approval (hence why Luke didn't die in the NJO, Anakin Solo died instead of Jacen, and Hanharr couldn't be a Dark Jedi). The original creator does have some input into the EU, even if he later cherrypicks it.
  5. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I think that, while they deal with varying degrees of fan-originating material, they are covering unrelated concepts.

    Fanfiction purports to be a contribution to a fictional universe. Fan theories are speculative observations intended to offer unofficial explanations for facets of a fictional universe. One "adds", the other "observes".

    If someone took a painting they did and, essentially, claimed it was a painting by DaVinci, that is entirely different from someone observing an actual DaVinci painting and speculating on the reasoning behind the techniques or brushstrokes used to create it.

    Fan theories that pan out would fall into categories- either the fan theory guessed what was intended all along or the creators did include the concept.

    However, in the latter, such concepts can't usually be traced back to a single individual (unlike fanfic, which is why most pros can't read such material as it opens them up to legal issues), and are observations based on the creator-owned material, not unauthorized elements created by someone else in other materisl.

    And a universe (or series) bible is just a standard production element for a franchise (especially TV shows) and is usually intended more for internal reference (since the content can change as a series evolves).


    Well, given the sheer volume of material the EU has produced, I'm sure the actual % is small (but also very, very hard to quantify- how do you equate or value a 300+ page novel with input from Lucas versus a video game with 5-10 hours of gameplay & cinematics? A comic story arc he outlined versus one he influenced? A novel based on Lucas's backstory and outline notes from a key installment in the film saga versus a TV movie written almost entirely by Lucas but only tangently connected to the film saga?).

    There's also the simple fact that we really don't know everything he's been involved with- we only know about the few that have been revealed to us. You don't see his name in the credits (beyond the obligatory "special thanks") for Starfighter, yet we know he was involved with it's development to some degree, for example.

    If I would hazard a guess, I would say maybe 10%, on the whole. However, given the interwoven nature of the EU, that 10% probably established the guiding principles for a significantly higher percentage of the remaining EU. There's a powerful butterfly effect at play there- for example: Lucas made only 3 notable decisions (that I can recall, he may have had more input beyond that) for the NJO ("Kill Chewbacca", "Kill Anakin instead of Jacen" & "No Sith"), but those 3 instructions had an impact on the direction of the story and subsequent material that is impossible to overstate.
  6. Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC and SWC

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    An example of the EU making something better. :cool:

    I don't think ditching the definitions of 'EU' in favour of T-canon and C-canon, as the original discussion, Artoo-Dion, was whether or not TCW is part of the Expanded Universe. C-canon, as it is, works with G-canon to create a single workable story. T-canon, for its part, seeks to do its own thing by elevating aspects of C-canon to T-canon and modifying certain others, and C-canon politely modifies itself to make G,T and C canon all work together as neatly as possible, thus Gardulla the Elder/Younger, thus Greedo the Elder/Younger, thus the New Mandalorian continuity being absorbed into the story via the retcons in the Atlas, etc.

    And if we are ranking 'Lucas's involvement' in something as to whether it fits into G, T or C, or is 'Expanded' or not, to be more precise, I believe that he was deeply involved in the Force Unleashed games; so how does that the 'Expanded' debate?
  7. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    My God :eek: - this must be the biggest SW-debate ever.... it seems that after religious beliefs only star wars canon causes such a hot debate:p ..... well let's see.. Star Wars was invented by George Lucas- if someone don't know that already :p - he based it on the classic myths, old serials like Flash Gordon... classic movies... scifi and fantasy- including Star Trek and Lord of the Rings..... he didn't really invent anything completely new or he didn't create anything from nothing he had his references and he created Star Wars out of them- and i think he did bloody good job when so many people still talk about it=D= ....

    We all do have our own opinions and they usually differ..... there is no "absolute truth" in many things or it just depends from out point of view :p I think that was bloody good advice from old Obi-Wan:) ...

    All Star Wars is based on work of one man -George Lucas.... and isn't it odd that so many here seem to despise him.... i think it's VERY odd8-} - if you think "Star Wars s*cks" what the heck you're doing here anyway:confused: .. if you think "Star Wars rules" then you are oversimplifying things-

    but truth is that Lucas is only person you can really thank about SW- he created SW -all others.... all fans all eu-creators are using his terms, his worlds, his characters- they are not that unique but they are Lucas' creations .... i don't think anyone can say "all SW is good" George Lucas himself hates holiday special for example.... but it doesn't mean that someone cannot like it - seriously... well i don't..... but someone may be able to like it....maybe.... well it's not impossible..... i think....that little cartoon with Boba was nice[face_laugh]

    I think it was awesome decision from Lucas to allow other creators to expand his universe- or there wouldn't be EU at all- it's true that all writers create something new for the Star Wars universe- and someone can think their work is even better than Lucas' own... i still don't think anyone likes all eu- but most books and games have some fans... De gustibus non est disputandum. there is no disputing about tastes :p

    what is true that George holds rights to change EU-canon if he wants- you like it or not... but i think it's not such a big deal- since all fans must create their own canon anyway- eu-material is and has always been confusing due to many writers- either you refuse to accept it completely or then you must choose what to accept- you cannot accept all without creating several canonical dimensions or ultimate fanonical retcons (those are of course ok too)

    Only thing you can say as fan is "i like it" or "i don't like it" it's useless to say things that aren't true (like TCW is EU... it is not) they won't change the truth that official canon is G-canon>Tv-canon>eu-canon.... still you can always think fanon>G-canon :p and refuse to accept something official because you don't like it but that's just another opinion- and you cannot argue about opinions- "good" and "bad" depends from a point of view- there is no "right" and "wrong" in matters of opinion.... well we can argue about that some other time....[face_laugh]








    damn i love this forum[face_laugh]


    Ha Ha- so agreed- complaining about fictional continuity is fun- but really pointless after all- no matter how good fan theories or opinions you have it's all just a fiction anyway.... good thing that besides all this SW-fandom.... i also happen to have thing called LIFE....you guys ever heard of it? [face_laugh]
  8. Mange Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    And? While I agree you have a point, the comparison between VHS/DVD and video games is somewhat of a false analogy. Movies and television shows are often transferred to other media and they can be shown in reruns whereas it's very seldom that video games are upgraded (I have a pile of PC-games from the 80's and forward, good luck in trying to get them to run).
    Second, not all people play video games. It's anecdotal of course, but this was actually the first time I've heard that Gardulla was swallowed by a Krayt-dragon according to a video game. I think it's one of the major problems with the EU and Licensing's canon rating right there.

    So, is it backwards compatible then? This is pure speculation of course but I can't imagine that many people would actually buy a PS2 or an old NGC only to play Star Wars: Bounty Hunter.

  9. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Lucas is the creator, that doesn't mean he's the only one to thank.

    Does Harrison Ford not matter becasue Lucas created the character of Han Solo? I mean Harrison brings nothing to the role, nothing to the character right, its all just Lucas?

    No, this entire universe is a joint effort and it always has been.

    If Lucas decided to come out tomorrow and say "Irvin Kershner had nothing to do with The Empire Strikes Back, it was all me"(much like he's decided to do to David Prowse right now actually) would everyone just shrug and say George is right, its all him?

    To me this is about Lucas refusing to share the spotlight on some levels. Is it his right to do so, yes. Does it make him a Saint, nope, far from it.

    If you don't want to discuss this then don't, no one is making you. Get back to your LIFE and stop wasting your time here.
  10. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5

    Well I take it back:D - I didn't mean he is the only one to thank about this franchise- but he is the most important one thank because he is the creator- he is not Saint- and he is still a bad director compared to Spielberg, Kershner or Marquand sometimes refuses to share the spotlight and from time to time he makes great mistakes....
    Still without Lucas- Irvin Kershner would've been unable to direct ESB...he would direct other films... without Lucas Harrison Ford may not be star at all.... you can thank Harrison Ford about great many things- he was Han he created much of his character himself- you can thank Irvin Kersher about ESB being best Star Wars by directing (i think so and i thank him) but Lucas created Star Wars- he didn't do it alone- but he started it and therefore is only one directly responsible of starting that universe- without him there wouldn't be Star Wars... no Han Solo.... no Empire Strikes Back.....

    There is no need to become so angry from a bad joke[face_tired] - i said i like this forum but some of you really seems to take this canon-issue too seriously "oh my God that's unlogic with one comic published 1992"
  11. Robimus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    And thats the exact point of this. People should be able to do that without being the butt of a joke for you.
  12. The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2010
    star 4
    Nah, nothing has contradicted Dark Empire yet.:p

    Although if TCW wants to find a way to make one thing published in 1992 non-canon, I would have no problem with that.[face_praying]
  13. CadBane Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2009
    star 1
    Again from this month's Insider #121: Lucas: "This is Star Wars, and I don't make a distinction between The Series and The Films."

    After perusing the last few pages from this Literature (novels and comics) Thread there seems to be anger over Lucas not following licensed novels pre-existing canon. The new Clone Wars series is well into Season 3 and has demonstrated (whether you agree with it or not) that Lucas does not follow established novel canon or use the internal canon levels developed for licensees to follow.

    From my understanding of the Literature vs Movies canon wars there are two arguments. Expanded Universe argues that everything is canon with an assigned canon level. This side suggests if one says otherwise that you are arguing that one version of Star Wars is more real than the other.

    Then there is the Movies and now TV faction since Lucas has consistently said TCW is in his 'pillar'. This side argues that the movies and now TV series are not equal to the merchandise.

    Personally I feel that Lucas should not have incorporated Expanded Universes elements and stuck to the films. This would preserve established literature in addition to not angering EU fans. Then again I feel that Lucs should stop changing the movies.

  14. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    yeah except little thing known as Star Wars saga- it's very clearly said in script, novelization and comic of the Rots that Sith cannot have afterlife as spirit.... [face_tired] Dark Empire is actually very good comic- i don't find it odd that Lucas likes it himself.... but still... it's never been and never will be part of Star Wars for me it's just funny comic series inspired by Star Wars taking place in sw-galaxy but it's more like infinities stories or like TFU-ultimate sithedition -it never can take place in the logic continuity since Emperor dies and his clone should be different person altogether- clone could think he is the emperor himself- but emperor's spirit.....come on.... ..... still it's part of c-canon officially... for now.... but c-canon is one big continuitymess anyway.... tied together with several retcons ... if Lucas will never make movie or tv-series out of Dark Empire- i couldn't care less....
  15. The_Forgotten_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2010
    star 4
    Actully, Sith can live on after death. It is just a very different technique than what the Jedi use. This has been established in numerous scources. Palpatine didn't really die until his real final death on Onderon. He kept leaving one body before it died, moving into a prepepared clone body that had no mind of its own. So it would always be the real Palpatine.

    And C-canon is not that much of a mess. The biggest continuity snarls have been either introduced by the PT, and those were easily solved, and by TCW, which won't be solved until the series is over. Most of the retcons introduced within C-canon itself have been to smooth over slight contradictions, with only a few large scale retcons.
  16. Darth_Duck Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2000
    star 4
    I've been a Star Trek fan longer than I've been a Star Wars fan, and a greatly enjoy the Trek novels despite the fact that they have no baring on canon in any way shape or form (even though the writers of the latest movie are admitted novel fans and even incorporated ideas from them into the movie: Nyota, Kirk's parent's names etc). But they're fun and they're enjoyable, and lately they've been fitting together into a continuity and I like that, and these days that's how I'm coming to enjoy the EU, for better or for worse.

    But here's the thing, Gene Rodenberry, the George Lucas of Trek, was a hack. The Original Series was great, because of Gene, but also because of the talented people he had with him, Gene Coon, Dorothy Fontana, Robert Justman and a whole host of others (Harlan Ellison are your ears burning?). He had very little to do with The Wrath of Khan and the follow-up movies, and guess what, they were pretty awesome for the most part, A Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country). He started declaring things non-canon for no reason and when he returned to running things we got the incredibly lacklustre first two seasons of The Next Generation. Harve Bennett, Nicholas Meyer, Michael Piller, Rick Berman (the early years), these were the people who kept Trek going, with little to no involvement from Gene. Gene started believing the things fans said about him and we got bland utopian crud.

    George Lucas was a great filmmaker, look at American Graffiti or ANH, but then look at TPM or AotC. He's not as good as he once was. So I respect George as a filmmaker, but he can't write these days, his dialogue is beyond clunky, he can't direct, look at Hayden Christianson in AotC and then go watch Shattered Glass. Surprise, he's actually a pretty good actor, he was Stephen Glass. I'm sorry but the days of George being the be-all and end-all of Star Wars are over. They were over the moment he started letting other people play in his sand box.

    I thank him for Star Wars, but whether he realizes it or not it's grown beyond him. It grew beyond him the moment kids started making up their own stories when the picked up sticks and started playing Jedi in the backyard.

    And yet you still have time to post on a message board and make a snide comment. Funny.
  17. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Star Wars is fiction- there is no truth there is only canon and canon has different levels- we cannot discuss about it if we aren't on same level- we apparently are not..... if you want to believe comics just do it- but you cannot make me to believe that they would make sense- they DO NOT make sense with idea of the saga- not within the vision of the Lucas-at least i'm not buying them as "facts"- why should i -it is not truth anyway.... actually Leland Chee confirmed that Palpatine DIED over Endor- so you're canonically wrong when stating he didn't die... I'm definitely leaving this topic now- enjoy about c-canonical mess....
  18. Malachi108 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    Now you are definitely Completely Missing the Point. The fact that the comic published in 1992, the newspaper strip from 1981, the video game from 2002, the novel from 1998 and even that TV episode from 2009 all take place in a single continuity (and one very large galaxy to that) is what makes canon so attractive to the fans in the first place. The different sources spread over 35 years all borrow from each other and the movies are no exception (Coruscant, Vos, Secura), resulting in a level of internal consistency and collaboration that is beyond reach of any other franchise. Only in Star Wars you can have novels incorporating elements of RPG campaigns, video games with locations introduced in the novels, the comic books elaborating on events of the video games and, finally, characters from comics making their way into live-action movies. It's one huge shared universe, many newcomers tend to get lost in the overwhelming amount of material, but once you become familiar with some stories and start picking references to them in others, people get to appreciate those continuity nods not only because it makes individual stories more rich, but because it creates a unique feeling of a large galaxy with over 5,000 years of detailed history.

    You don't want to get involved in that and limit your Star Wars activities to re-watching the gems like "The Gungan General", "Senate Murders" and "Corruption" over and over - fine, it's entirely up to you. But why you insist on denying thousand of fans the importance of the hobby they dedicated several years to - I have no idea.
  19. Daft-Vader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    This I agree with...

    the you will forever have people arguing over canon, but the simple matter is why does GL feel the need to pick ideas from the EU, then completely redo it, surely they could stick with original ideas, then none if this would be a problem.

    There are two simple options:

    *Utilise the EU, but do research to make sure it is suitable
    *Leave EU alone, make up original ideas/planets etc...

    Yet instead they seem to do both at the same time, take ideas from the EU, then start with them from afresh... :rolleyes:
  20. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well i said i leave this topic but i cannot... not if i am so misunderstood here

    I am fan of some eu -i definitely am- but i'm following logic that movie canon overwrites Tv-canon and Tv-canon overwrites Eu canon and i cannot simply accept continuity that makes no sense with the movies- whole Chosen One concept is destroyed with Palpatine coming back- i just cannot accept it- it destroys sw-continuity to me... Corruption is such a piece of **** i cannot really accept it either[face_tired] ..... I think all fans are entitled to choose their personal canon out of all EU-material... all comics and spinoffs made- it's impossible to keep them all logical (without massive retcons).... eu is supposedly 5000 years long timeline but still it seems to have similar amount of own material as there is in the moviesaga[face_thinking] - million Darth-named sithlords (most of them are pale copies of Vader, Maul or Dooku) etc. i will lose nothing if i'll skip all post thrawn-trilogy stuff for example... actually i like Gungan General (only JarJar's voice is bad) and Senate murders- so yeah i'll watch them (don't really want to see corruption or academy again) and you'll read your comics and we are both happy :)
    until Live action series or something establish that Emperor's cloning failed:p ....

  21. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    You weren't here 8-12 years ago when the real canon wars raged on these forums. [face_worried]

    Video games are often transferred to other media too.

    For the PC, you have services like Steam to distribute older (and current) titles, or emulation features like the Mac Classic environment or various DOS/3.1/9X fixes for Windows (though the latter is less reliable).

    For consoles, you have the Virtual Console, XBox Live Arcade & Playstation Network to deliver downloadable retro titles, or backwards compatibility in current consoles to play older titles. Not to mention rereleases, ports, updates, etc. Do you have any idea how many different ways you can acquire the original Metroid game from 1987? :p

    Yes. If you have a Wii, you can play BH on it. If you have an early model PS3, you can play BH on it. If you have a PS2, you can definitely still play BH on it.

    Not everyone has a blu-ray player, so should we ignore the validity of content or entertainment found exclusively on the BRD format? I can't imagine that many people would actually buy a BRD player just to watch some exclusive content. ;)

    I'm sure if someone buys some old (or new) hardware, they're not going to do it for just 1 title- they'll almost certainly be using it to play other games as well (even if you are only a SW fan, you're not going to grab a GCN just for BH, you'll probably want to get Clone Wars or Jedi Outcast or the Rogue Squadron games, etc).

    If people want to play the games, they'll find a way to play them. As I said, even if you somehow don't have a console that's already compatible with last gen games, it costs less to get the necessary hardware than it does to buy a single new game- and that investment then gives you access to hundreds of other titles.

    Given the similarities between Dark Empire and the original outline for the Sequel Trilogy, I wouldn't be surprised if he ever did. ;)

    Generally it's shown that Sith spirits/presence have to be bound to a physical object, unlike the Jedi. It's likely a concept based on the Dagobah cave in ESB (showing that the darkside can be bound to a place/object).

    It depends on your point of view- whether you think his spirit gets transferred somewhere else or not, Palpatine actually did die over Endor, by definition, regardless.
  22. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well there is two great wars within the SW universe- war between the lightness and dark.... and one between EU-continuity and George Lucas.....:p

    If Lucas will produce more movies with Palpatine's clone... well i doubt it- but then i would accept it... it could be cool actually- but comic cannot never be as cool as movie.... and now the most important happening of all -death of the ultimate bad guy- happens in comic not in movies.... this is what is out of place there....

    Sith spirits are acceptable if they are destructable or then stuck in some place like Korriban- but "free sith spirits" go against the idea of force spirits being able to win the death by compassion to help the living to defeat the evil... or something like that[face_thinking]
  23. RC-1991 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    No, the Emperor's cloning doesn't contradict the movies. First of all, Palpatine's spirit was never dead to begin with at the end of ROTJ. He separated his spirit from his original body and transferred it to one of the clone bodies on Byss. And the death of that first body was still necessary. The clone bodies were inferior to the original, and couldn't contain his evil spirit without swiftly decaying. Vader didn't kill Palpatine; he saved Luke. Actually, come to think of it, he still killed Palpatine. He ensured that Palpatine could never truly regain his power. Sure, he's running around conjuring Force Storms and all that jazz... but look at what it costs him to do so. Palpatine could do that kind of stuff in his old body too, but without any real worries because that specific body was his from conception. It was created specifically for him. The other bodies were artificial creations. They could never truly contain his evil. Once the original body died, the decay was inevitable.
    Furthermore, Dark Empire is one of the few works to take Leia seriously as a Jedi. Luke is shown in all his "Chosen One if the Chosen one hadn't been corrupted" glory, and it is generally a good story. In fact, the flanneled one himself has expressed his satisfaction with the comic. Yeah, the Sith still keep coming back after Palpatine's death. Notice how none of them really ever top him? He was the pinnacle of Sithhood. Even the more recent Darth Krayt, who revivified his own body, isn't likely to last too long. He has to deal with the Skywalkers as a counterbalance. That is Anakin's real legacy. He ensures the survival of the Skywalker line, which was the Force's little natural balance.

    If you want to skip over the EU, fine, do so. I'm glad that you enjoy the cartoon [face_peace] . But the rest of us would like to keep our EU. It doesn't harm the cartoon, it doesn't harm the movies. There are plenty of works out there that I don't like, but others do (LOTF, I'm looking at you... sorry Sinre ;)). I still acknowledge the effect that they have on the continuity and overall story. Malachi hit it right on the head, I think. The whole idea of a shared continuity is one of the Star Wars Universe's major appeals. That, and Leia's metal bikini :p

    Mange, why should the availability of a work determine its canonicity?
  24. rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    You fought in the Canon Wars?
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    I was once an EUDF member, the same as your father... ;)