Clone Wars *Official* Clone Wars Continuity & Canon Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by flashbang, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well we see Eu differently- it seems that you think it as one complete coherent history.... i see it more like a buffet table- you can enjoy bits of it- one disgusting food don't prevent enjoying about some good bits- you don't have to eat all foods .... i am not skipping the whole eu- no way - i just want to make a difference between "good" and "bad" eu and i think i am entitled to do so -since eu is not coherent- there is lots of stuff mixed many creators..... many continuity conflicts... and far too many jedi and sith clones [face_laugh] btw how are they going to retcon TFU2- it had odd ending- rebels winning a battle before their "first victory" - and mention of jedi never been cloned- that overwrites the Battlefront Elite Squadron pretty well....

    If Cartoon would only be enjoyable enough[face_worried] .... Evil plans was very..... light episode.... it wasn't bad but really... is droid's shopping trip best they can show to us.....?

    No..... I guess i was the navigator of the spicefreighter then[face_thinking]
  2. Mange Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    Well, in the interest of moving the discussion along, I concede the point about games as media. However, video games are still lower canon than TCW and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Gardulla-issue wasn't the only thing from this game that was retconned later, was it?

  3. TheFiffis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2010
    star 1
    I may not have been apart of the Canon Wars here, but I was apart of several across the vast wastes of the Interwebz.

    The Boba Fett in Episode II thing was one of my favorites. Seemed that was a bigger deal than the Clone Wars not being 40 years before Episode IV. Go figure.
  4. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    You were the guardian of peace and canon in the SWU. Before the dark times. Before TCW. :p
  5. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Off the top of my head, there weren't any other issues with Bounty Hunter since it was a pretty high profile title and storyline (Blackman wrote it and the tie-in comic, Open Seasons, game used ILM CGI models for it's cinematics, Morrison, Walsman, Burton, Clancy Brown and others lent their voices to the project, not to mention the after-the-fact connection between Komari Vosa and Ventress).

    There might have been some oddities with the timing of some of the comic's dating in regards to the new Mandalorian material, but not the game itself, AFAIK.
  6. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Here's my views as far as Continuity and Canon goes.

    G-Canon is king. Nothing should be able to contradict the movies.

    T-Canon is next on the ladder. Anything from C-Canon that is mentioned in T-Canon is automatically bumped up to T-Canon as is, unless there's a discrepancy, in which case it'll be reconciled so both will fit.

    C-Canon is still canon. It exists. It's canon. Until T-Canon says something different, it's there as it is.

    Anything lower than this either gets bumped up at a certain point or is branded with Infinites.

    Look people, George Lucas said that they're going to try to make it all canon. He could've easily went the Star Trek route and made it all non-canon if it's not on screen. But he didn't. Hence, it's all canon.

    Also: I don't think they should be changing things just because they can. Of course anything that's done is fixed to work with the preexisting material, but as a contiguous franchise the things that came before it has to matter. The products were sold as a part of the Star Wars canon. To later change that and say they no longer exist should not happen. If they really want to see character/species x do y then don't make them a preexisting character or race with totally different features. How about, you know, being creative and creating a new species?

    It's common courtesy; acknowledge what came before or create something new.

    I also don't see this weird aversion to all things EU. TCW is good. Yeah, sometimes it's great Star Wars. But sometimes, I'm talking recently, it's anything but. People say they want to see these characters do this, see more of this character, but it's already there. Read a comic. Or a book. It's really top notch stuff. The entire Republic series has an awesome take on the Clone Wars era, and most of the novels are really pretty decent. In fact, I'd wager to say that especially when talking about the comics, trumps TCW most of the time. You want to see some Anakin and Rex action? Check out any Alpha action. Obi-Wan? Assajj Ventress? Obsession. Quinlan Vos?(who will hopefully become much more popular around here) The entire Republic run. The comic Battle of Kamino is just as good as the Clone Wars cartoon version.

    Basically, give it a try before you rant and rave about the EU, and the people trying to stand up for it. It's really good stuff that'll give you another venture into the Star Wars universe.

    Allllllll I'mmmmmmmmmmm Sayinnnng issssss Give Peace a Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance.
  7. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 3
    Cite? LFL has maybe said this, but AFAIK, Lucas hasn't.

    IMHO, common courtesy is respecting the creator's freedom to use licensed material as he sees fit.

    And again, it was sold as being ancillary to Lucas' own vision.

    I've read some of Heir to the Empire. And Dark Empire. And Cloak of Deception. And Truce at Bakura. And Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina. I get about 20 pages into these books and my eyes just start glazing over. Really. I find even the best EU that I've read to be mind-numbingly dull. There might be stuff I'd love, but I can't be bothered reading a bunch of books with no assurance that I will find something I'd love.

    TCW is good enough for me.
  8. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    Yes, except when he sells the license - in which case the common sense goes in a way of the business. Lucas may still own Star Wars franchise, but the moment he decided to make money by allowing other people to tell stories in his universe and advertise them as official continuity, the universe ceased to be his alone. Is it really so hard to admit?
  9. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Sure, he can. That doesn't mean he should. Gene Roddenberry and Star Trek comes to mind. Just because it is "Lucas' vision" doesn't make it better, it just makes it "Lucas' vision". Better or worse is subjective.

    If TCW is good enough for you, fine, have fun with that. No one is going to lock you in a basement and force you to read "The Far Orbit Project" or "The Ruins of Dantooine" (which would be torture to even hardcore EU fans). The rest of us are going to keep our EU, and we would prefer it in one piece. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's noncanon, it just means that it's not your cup of tea. Don't trash the EU or say it's not canon just because you can't get into it.

    I'm also going to come out right now and say that I prefer the EU to the vast majority of Lucas-directed projects.
  10. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 3
    The way I see it is this:

    I don't know how many books, comics, etc. have been released in the EU, but it has to number in the hundreds. Those stories aren't going away, and if you've enjoyed them, great!

    But to me, the value of the films and TCW is that these are stories told according to Lucas' unique take on the universe. That may include mining the EU for ideas and then retooling them, just as the EU has done with unused concepts from the films. Take Coruscant: despite first appearing in EU, it was an unused concept dating back at least as far back as ESB story conferences. So, the EU took that and ran with it.

    So sometimes Lucas' vision aligns with the EU--it's fine as-is--and sometimes it doesn't. But once you start demanding that the creator restrict their artistic freedom, everything becomes less interesting.

    James Cameron made the first two Terminator movies, but he sold the franchise, and the following two movies and the series were made without his input. If, tomorrow, he regained the rights and made a new Terminator movie that ignored everything after T2 (or even borrowed elements from the later films and retooled them), that's his right.

    And I'm almost positive that at least one of the books had a disclaimer about Lucas reserving the right to overwrite all the EU continuity.
  11. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well i just played bounty hunter.... it's very hard game for someone as cr*ppy player as me... but after few failures i managed to play through Gardulla level (but i get only 9 of the 10 bounties:oops: ) and actually nothing in the game contradicts with TCW- not even background comic that shows mandos- Gardulla is swallowed by Krayt dragon and apparently dead- but first of all Gardulla in TCW hasn't been identified yet- she can be different hutt altogether just sharing the name (even though ep guide probably makes mention of her being in ep1[face_tired] ).... she may be survived from the belly of the Krayt Dragon- she was swallowed as whole and dragon died soon after.....

    or then awesome retcon with classic eu explanation- Gardulla was -in fact force-sensitive (Eu knows forcesensitive hutts:oops: ) and she was trained to use the dark side... just not well enough to fight jango..... she cloned herself prior that....and her spirit traveled to secret hide out of the huttclan. Where she came back to life -but in the process her memories were lost and she didn't remember that Jabba wanted her dead:p ..... Here it is -classic EU-retcon- now you should all be able to keep your eu without contradictions... but i prefer some explanation that actually makes sense- i want to keep bounty hunter in the canon same as you....

    .... would you be happy if some eu-story would tell about new republic or some of it's successors.... let's say IGU (Intergalactic Goodguy union) that was founded 1234218ABY- would have cloned army of ewoks to fight the evil JarJar clones of the 53th Galactic Empire and it's emperor Darth Meesabadguy (who is naturally red gungan with "cool" tattoos á la Darth Maul)..... it would be perfectly allright because it's logic with continuity and it wouldn't be from Lucas but for some fantasyauthor who received official rights from Lucasfilm to write EU?????- You would see it as part of the logic continuity and you would add it to c-canon as history of the galaxy....
    I don't think so.... but this is how i feel about Legacy era - i would rather have army of cloned jarjars in the continuity -than never dying sith order- because jarjar army wouldn't be unlogic with idea of movies- destroying the Sith... i wouldn't consider that story as canon though -because of that Sith Lord there:p
  12. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    You really hit the nail here. It's not his right, because he sold the rights to the franchise, of which he (reported many times) regrets. Lucas didn't sell his franchise, but he let other people create in it, essentially renting it to them. So, same rules apply here.

    And, seeing how far we went from the original topic, I'd like to remain what was this all about. We all understand that Lucas can make up whatever he wants and then Eu will have to adjust to him (and not the other way around) - we learned to live with that during the prequels. What we can't accept (or even understand, in fact) is his need to take concepts established in EU and then turn them around, leaving the name only.

    Boba Fett's old backstory being axed was entirely understandable if not universally welcome: he was created by Lucas after all. Same applier to Greedo. But why take Ryloth, established in EU some 20 years ago and contradict that depiction - we cannot understand or agree with. He is entirely free to make up new concepts, but not to screw up other's concepts when he just make up a different name and have his version existing parallel to EU one. Is that more clear?
  13. Darth_Duck Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2000
    star 4
    The "classic" EU explanation would be that the Gardulla seen in TCW is Gardulla the Younger, as seen in the novels and that Gardulla from Ep I and Bounty Hunter is Gardulla the Elder. Which is exactly what you suggested at first before going off on this little tangent. Your idea is terrible, but you were aiming for terrible to paint the EU in a bad light. Congratulations, you have found hyperbole.

    Again, a terrible, hyperbolic statement to paint the EU in a bad light. Please, stop making up crap to back up your view.

    See, the thing about LFL that sets it apart from FanFic is, among about a dozen other things, editors, who, especially in licensed fiction, are key. They help shepherd a story from conception to the finished product, helping the author and preventing amateur crap (like your JarJar vs Ewoks scenario) from coming out. Yes, you and I may not like what comes out all the time, and yes, everyone has a different take on what the Star Wars saga is, but you're doing a disservice to the authors, artist, video games designers,, and editors who have put their time into "expanding the universe" and the fans who've enjoyed and followed it by painting it, as your suggestions do, as amateur and hack-ish.

    You don't have to like and follow the Expanded Universe, but please, quit denigrating it for those who do.
  14. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Actually, clone continuity is extremely neat.

    Clones need a year minimum to reach maturity without madness settling in, which happens if they are created any quicker. Kaminoan cloning takes ten years as it is a different method. Clones tended to go mad if grown too quickly as their minds did not have the ability to cope with the resonance of the same minds existing on the same wavelength in the Force. This applies doubly for Jedi. Unless grown sufficiently slowly, the clones go mad. The clones from Elite Battlefront were grown by Kaminoan methods. The Jedi clones in the Thrawn Trilogy and TFU were grown by Spaarti methods, which went mad, mostly. Vader worked on the clone problem, as seen in TFU II, succeeding to a degree. Palpatine avoided it by simply overshadowing the soul of his clones.

    Thrawn in the Thrawn Trilogy, resolved the problem by cutting off the clones from the Force, Jedi or otherwise, allowing for clones to be grown in weeks rather than months or years, without the madness problem. The mass production of Jedi or Sith clones results in its own problems, as seen in Crosscurrent. So it's a very neat continuity.

    The Jedi don't believe Force users can be cloned, and discourage investigation. The Sith are intrigued by it, but as a threat to their power do the experimentation themselves. Thrawn does his own experimentation, and encounters new problems...
  15. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 3
    Unlike in Cameron's case, Lucas never surrendered the rights to SW, and all EU authors are writing at his pleasure.

    The situation is analogous to the work of people such as Ralph McQuarrie. Mr. McQuarrie is, without a doubt, my favourite SW artist, but while his creative spark resides in every piece he produced while in the employ of Lucas, Lucas is still the one who ultimately retains the right to McQuarrie's concepts. So if the swamp creature depicted in an ESB Dagobah concept painting finally turns up in Bombad Jedi on Rodia with luminescent skin some 30 years later, that's Lucas' right. Even if the idea for the creature originated with McQuarrie, he created it in the service of Lucas.

    This is exactly the case with EU, and addresses the idea of retooling ideas from the books, etc.
  16. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well here comes worst explanation ever- if they're preventing "amateurish crap" how it is possible that i have read amateurish crap that is lisenced eu- it's an opinion what is "crap"- i find some eu amateurish crap- so i am wrong because you don't find it amateurish crap 8-} - so you techinically say you have RIGHT OPINION... and i have WRONG OPINION- really- i thought that opinions cannot be "bad" or "good"- but you're actually claiming so -when using that as a reason[face_thinking] - it's not- there is good eu and bad eu- but what is good and what is bad depends from an opinion- there is good fanfiction and there is bad fanfiction- same thing- we can like it or dislike it- but "crap" is not defined term- i know many who say "Star Wars is crap".... well that's their opinion i'm fine with it-

    only difference between bad eu and that story i made up -is that i have no license and you don't like my story (calling it amateurish crap is evil you don't know how long
  17. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Yes- cloning continuity starts to make sense with tfu2- but i really dislike it how starkiller's choice to kill or not to kill Vader seems to change the future more than it could change it in theory- since perfect starkiller clone appears only if you choose dark side ending and try to kill the vader- but if you let him live clone is nowhere to be found:eek: what a failure- he should be there anyway if Vader managed to create a perfect clone of Marek[face_thinking] . Elite squadron shows how Jedi was cloned during the Clone wars- and that jedi was Kota's own padawan.... but in TFU2 Kota says "jedi have NEVER been cloned" and similar claim can be found from ep3 visual dictionary that says "kaminoans NEVER had a chance to clone a forcesensitive"..... you cannot create logic continuity without discrediting some sources....it's true and inevitable that canonical material has to change to make sense....

    republic heroes ds-version was non-canonised- i wonder why when Elite Squadron remains in canon even though it really makes no sense with movies either- those don't show x1 or x2 -even though x2 supposedly were in the battle of Coruscant, battle of Yavin, Battle of Hoth and even on Endor- movie shows how Tydirium is only rebel ship that get pasts the energyshield- so x2's ship cannot be on endor- still game shows how it is there.....8-}
  18. Darth_Duck Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2000
    star 4
    I had a lengthy reply written out, but I'll just say this. I never said I didn't like TCW cartoon, you assumed so because I was defending the EU. I like TCW. Bombad Jedi was a great episode, IMO, and there were plenty of other great episodes. But you're right, we're not going to agree and typing anything beyond this is a waste of all our time.
  19. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well that may be so.... I just so dislike this new EU vs. TCW - scenario8-} -perhaps we can agree about that- TCW is not enemy of EU..... neither one is completely coherent or perfectly good -both having good and bad stories- actually Bombad Jedi is one of the worsts,IMO,- not because of JarJar but because of all plotholes i am seeing there (droidekas suddenly just miss when in movies even jedi needed to escape them etc.) but you can like it if you want.... I think there is always possibility of changes in the fictional universe and it won't take long before retcons patch up the problems between TCW and EU -and unlogic material is simply forgotten or more likely cunningly retconned to make somehow sense....
  20. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    But why should it? Lucas created the SW Galaxy from scratch, so why the need to take pieces from the EU and turn them around, why not make new planets/species etc...?

    but he never created some of the things in the EU? Surely common courtesy works both ways. the EU has always followed Lucas advice, etc, never done anything which GL says no about. yet now the other way, with GL using EU material, the courtesy ends...

  21. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 3
    I've already addressed that point. The EU authors were not writing for themselves but rather being paid to write for Lucas.

    It's the same as writing an ad jingle or producing a piece of commercial art.
  22. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    I don't think they are being paid to write for Lucas...

    The trouble is the EU was always stated as a "continuation" of the saga..

    a case of what happened before/after in between the movies...

    The EU is a representation of the "History of the Galaxy", at least in my mind, that is what it was advertised as


  23. Senator Kelberry Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2010
    star 3
    I rent. And while my landlord has to follow certain laws, there are certain things I can't do to this place and if he feels like not renewing my lease he can do that too. I live here, but the place doesn't belong to me.

    If I were to buy property from someone, then it's mine. They can't come back a year later and tell me to leave because it's not theirs. It's mine.

    Big difference.

    But, anyway. I get that George has done things people don't like. Maybe it's arrogant. Maybe it's self-serving. Maybe it wrecks your vision of what the Star Wars Universe should be. I always offer my sympathies to people who feel like that because it's not fun when an author (for lack of a better term) does something you don't like. It's happened to me too, both with George and other authors I really like. I'll never forget an earlier thread where we pondered what could cause sound in space in the Star Wars galaxy and somebody popped up and said George said it was some device on ships that mimicked sound. It was from the Star Wars Radio Drama I believe. I thought to myself..."Gosh darn (censored) it George! How could you do something like that! It ruins the storytelling magic of your world for me!"

    It made me angry for about five minutes. Then I did what I normally do when I encounter material I don't care for. I ignored it. To me the "audio device" explanation is but one of many, and not one that fits in with my vision of the Star Wars Universe, and so I discard it. Currently I live quite comfortably with my vision not having the slightest idea how sound in space happens. I just think it's cool.

    Who here remembers the film "Big Trouble in Little China"? If you haven't seen it, stop reading and go watch it now. I'm reminded of a quote.

    "We take what we want and leave the rest. Just like your salad bar."

    Why can't the Star Wars Galaxy be that way? There's just such a colossal amount of material out there, how can it not be? Don't let other people tell you what "really happened" and what didn't. You know what really happened? Whatever you think really happened. Doesn't matter if George wrote it or someone else wrote it. The Star Wars Galaxy exists to be entertaining, and it can only be entertaining if you take what pleases you and leave behind the stuff that doesn't fit in with it.
  24. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Well i said this same thing above with different words[face_thinking] .... and from that sound in space issue- when you start to think about it-
    "-Why there is no sound in space?" "Because there is no vibrating material between ship's engines and ear"... "well are your ear there in space".... "ummmm... no".... then what does it matter[face_laugh]
    these movies show us things we cannot see -so why should they not to let us hear sounds we cannot hear.... John Williams music being best of those sounds along with Ben Burtts' sound effects .... i think Williams is most important sw-creator after George Lucas:) and Burtt is also very good..... ok totally of topic- but there is not enough williams in TCW- Kiner has been much better lately- season3 is actually superior what comes to musical scores of the episodes.....
  25. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No, it doesn't. Every contract that a writer signs for working on Star Wars, has some parts that deal with continuity and new material. I think this issue was dealt in the Lit forums, but every book that exists may change in continuity because Lucasfilm has the right to do so. Nothing is written in stone as far as books are concerned.