Clone Wars *Official* Clone Wars Continuity & Canon Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by flashbang, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    Well... yeah! Just because they manage the internal continuity to maintain its consistency, it doesn't mean that this continuity doesn't matter at all. Your point actually goes in support of the EU: they keeping it consistent, patching the holes and fixing mistakes - why would they bother if it was just some alternate reality from which you can pick and discard as you choose? The EU is one huge consistent chunk of material: you either embrace it all or ignore it all and limit yourself to films only. But if you do that, why do you care about our canon discussions in the first place?
  2. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No. I choose what I embrace, and I only embrace what I like.

    But I don't do that.
  3. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    There seems to be two fundamental misunderstandings here:

    1) That GL is an equal partner in the creation of the SW universe, or even that the EU somehow trumps his authority by virtue of sheer numbers.

    You may personally prefer the EU, and that's fine, but the reality is still that GL is the boss, not a partner. Your personal ideas of GL's normative role are irrelevant: despite what you think he should or shouldn't do, he can and does. Accept it and move on, would be my advice..

    2) Hierarchical canon somehow implies that if part of a concept is raised a level, the whole concept should be raised along with it.

    Again, normative statements are irrelevant. If GL wants to make Ryloth a dwarf planet that spins so fast its inhabitants need to tie themselves to the ground, he absolutely can. It's just the way it is. His sandbox, his rules.

    My sense is that this all goes back to this "all or nothing" extremism. It's absurd.
  4. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    Fair enough...

    but if thats the case why bring in Ryloth at all, he never made it, no sign of it in any show...?

    This is the point, GL is bringing in things when he doesn't need to. Why bring in Ryloth, Dathomir? why not make his own ideas...? I mean if he said the Twi'leks come from planet X, that is not so bad as saying Twi'Leks come from Ryloth, but Ryloth is not what it was...
  5. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    His sandbox that he wants friends to play in. If he smashes their sandcastles, then they leave. Angrily. See Karen Traviss, a spectacular author with, certainly, her own controversies, but gone into the wind. I think there are a few authors who have some unhappy opinions about what has happened to Star Wars and are unlikely to come back.

    Dion, I expect you'll have no issue with it until George does it to something you care about, sadly. Which you seem to be suggesting is inevitable for all continuity, T, C or S.

  6. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    Really? That seems like a trivial distinction to me. In both cases the Twi'lek homeworld has been altered, which seems to be the sticking point.

    Is it really just the matter of it being called Ryloth that's so offensive?
  7. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    because then Ryloth could be a colony world, that is a minor retcon

    Making Ryloth different has a more profound effect
  8. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    Well, no. I mean, the biggest thing GL's done that I disagree with is putting no further effort into restoring the original versions of the OT. But my feelings are irrelevant--they're his movies, not mine. I can either spend time stewing about something I can't change or I can shrug my shoulders and enjoy the things in life that make me happy.

    As for Traviss, whose history I know only a little bit about, she can get as huffy as she wants, but it's her own fault if she thought she was creating SW gospel.
  9. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    She probably did though

    These authors spend a huge amount of time and effort making these stories, believing that they are fine, and part of Star Wars.

    They don't do it just to find all the hard work they did to find that in one 22 minute kids show all their hard work is wiped out...

    I managed to watch the recent TCW episode on SW.com, not sure how I managed it, but it somehow played (I clicked The Clone Wars and it played, normally it comes up saying I can't watCh it cause I am not in the US) and it felt... silly

    Droid spas? Cakes? It didn't feel like Star Wars of old...?
  10. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    And it's not like the authors come begging on their hands and knees to receive a Star Wars contract. LFL contacts THEM, based on the quality of their other work or previous connections (Troy Denning and James Luceno both spent years writing for West End Games, the old publisher of the Star Wars RPG and the Holy Grail to some fans). So, to get sought out, only to get one's work completely overwritten for the sake of 22 minutes of a cartoon... yeah, it isn't hard to see why Traviss quit. And why Stackpole isn't back. The whole idea of continuity being a two-way street is a big part of making the EU work.

    Yes, technically, George Lucas has every right to go bonkers on the continuity. He can trash backstories if he wants. But should he?
  11. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    They are getting paid for it.

    Let's say I write a great script for a movie about a breakdancing ninja and single dad whose son is kidnapped by Middle Eastern terrorists. Somehow my script gets the attention of Tom Cruise, who really loves the story, but he's been itching to play a meth-addicted journalist, instead. He buys my script and decides to produce and star in it.

    Tom hires Vince Gilligan to do a rewrite, based on his work in Breaking Bad, giving it a bit of black humour--hero Shintaro is now Harry Nicks, a down-on-his luck journo who has developed a taste for meth. But now Robert DeNiro has come on board as the villain, so the Middle Eastern terrorists are transformed into an Italian family that the journalist has been investigating for organised crime. And to appeal to teen audiences, the son is now a daughter, played by Miley Cyrus.

    Does this story really bear any resemblance to the one in my script? No. But that's part of the deal when I sold my script to Tom Cruise. This is the way the world works. If I wanted to have my story told, I should have self-produced, a la Tommy Wiseau's masterpiece, The Room.

    Similarly, if you're writing licensed material in someone else's universe, you surrender all authorial control. Otherwise, write original novels in your own universe.
  12. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    The only difference is that in this case, instead of your script example, it work better if you've written a book that Tom Cruise decides to adapt into a film. Your book is a success, millions of people love it. But when Tom adapts it into a movie e makes all those changes you mentioned. Sure, he has every right to do it, but don't you think the fans of your book will be a tad upset over his steamrolling of all those elements that they loved so much? And don't you think they have every right to be?
  13. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    People have a right to feel however they want.

    On the one hand, Starship Troopers is one of my favourite films, yet a lot of fans of the book absolutely hate it.

    OTOH, I'm also a big fan of Lewis Carroll's Alice books, and I think the Tim Burton version was pretty inadequate at best. I also think American McGee's Alice is a travesty.

    But in both cases, the books still exist. And really, there are better things to worry about. I even own Burton's Alice in Wonderland on Blu-ray, because while I think it totally misses the point of the books and it has one of the worst endings in modern cinema, there are still things I enjoy in it.

    Should Burton have made his movie? In a perfect world, Terry Gilliam would have made it, IMHO, but what's done is done. What good does it do for me to talk about "shoulds" here?

    Anyway, it comes down to this: Tim Burton didn't erase Carroll's work out of existence, nor has Lucas done this with the EU. It's all still there for you and I to read and enjoy.
  14. Daft-Vader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2008
    star 8
    The problem is that future EU work will have to use the continuity established in the TCW - the books will nor make such a seemless flow. All this so we can get a show with Droid Spas :rolleyes: and Darth Mauls Super-Brother :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
  15. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    I brought this argument last page, so I myself feel silly for repeating it, yet I should.

    Games based on Harry Potter of Lord of the Rings do not affect the books in any way. Even movies based on the books exist as a parallel version with deviations and do not affect the books in any way. But this is not the same with Star Wars!

    If The Force Unleashed says that the Rebel leaders were brought to the Death Star and freed by Starkiller, then it happened in the same universe as the movies. If a short story said that Wuher the barman brewed Greedo's remains into a liqueur... then it happened in the same universe as movies. That's the reason why canon discussion spring up in the first place: you won't find us arguing about inconsistencies with movies in Tag & Bink of The Ultimate Sith Edition of TFU. Those are out of canon and if they are silly or make no sense - we don't bother. Really.

    But when a canonical source - be it a new movie, TCW episode, video game or a book brings up inconsistencies or thing we feel don't fit into SW - then we get upset. Because we may not want this things to happen in SW - yet they did. And discussions we have is usually not like "Did it come from Lucas? No? Then, thank God, it never happened", but instead "Well, what retcon do we need to fix the inconsistency? And how should we look at the story for it to actually make sense?".

    Because most of the time it's not even about the individual stories - it's about keeping the whole thing tied together. Ryloth retcon was particularly bad, because they are several good stories that directly rely on Ryloth being a tide-locked planet (again, something established decades ago). You take away a few things like that and it's all starting to fall apart - until a necessary fix is made.

    When you say that Lucas does not affect the EU and we can still enjoy it as before, you clearly don't understand how the EU works. Yes, there is the G > T > C > S > N hierarchy, but it does not mean that you choose one of the levels (movies and TCW, or movies only, or everything new, but not the old obscure sources) and everything below doesn't exist for you. It does not work that way and never did. All stories except for obvious non-canon exist at the same time at the same universe and until there are contradictions, they all are treated equally. The hierarchy only comes into play when such contradiction arise and established which version should be kept and which one has to be changed.

    But, again, it does not mean everything below one of the letters is irrelevant to it - it still is. Why would we have canon discussions and e upset about new developments if we could just pick and choose canon for ourselves? You can ignore something, but LucasLicensing wouldn't and to keep the universe consistent, even stories you don't like must and are being taken into account. Because somebody does like them.
  16. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    Admittedly, this might sound trite, but all good things must come to an end. That sounds a bit callous, but really, 20 years of relatively unspoiled continuity is a pretty good run, IMHO. Is there any other licensed universe with that track record?

    Look, when the Clone Wars feature (really four episodes glued together) hit cinemas, and it was about the Jedi rescuing Jabba's son (!), I didn't even bother going to see it. But when I eventually saw the series, I was immediately won over. Maybe my expectations were so low that it wasn't hard to charm me, but episodes like Ambush, Rookies, etc. made me a total convert.

    I'm still sceptical of Maul Mark II, but I had a great time watching last week's episode, droid spa and all.

    I can understand where the EU purists are coming from, truly. It's the principle of this pure, untouched, Platonic ideal of one massive continuity, and now it's getting sullied by one man's desire to mark his territory. And to what end? So we can see schoolkids solving mysteries and droids getting a car wash? It's a middle finger to everyone who cares about SW!

    But that's Comic Book Guy territory. I've got that in me, too--I've got a CBG bust by Sideshow just to remind me of my "dark side"--but it's really not a very balanced POV. "Shoulds" and Platonic ideals are the pathway to frustration with no payoff. A good, healthy dose of reality is the only cure.
  17. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    Uh... no. Think of it this way:

    Universe 1: Episodes I-VI
    Universe 2: Episodes I-VI, TCW
    Universe 3: Episodes I-VI, TCW, EU
    etc.

    In Universe 2 (my preferred universe), we know only what's in eps I-VI and TCW. That's it. The rest is speculation.

    And just because events in Universe 2 occur in Universe 3 doesn't mean then that events in Universe 3 occur in Universe 2 unless stated otherwise. That's why there is a Universe 3--for that purpose. Otherwise it's like me daring you to prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

    But really, this is all simply an internal system set up by LFL for the purposes of managing the EU. GL, AFAICT, doesn't distinguish between universes 1 and 2. And there are plenty of people for whom there's another universe--eps IV-VI only. Nobody can dictate to me or anyone else that we must accept the EU because LFL says so.
  18. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    I feel like we're going in circles here and it can only end when ones of us gets tired and decided to bail. But hey, let's try it one more time.

    That's how you think it is, you can treat it however you want as long as it's fine with you. But that's not what official position of LucasLicansing is, because, as stated here by Leeland Chee:

    Q: A clarification is needed if the C and G level are separated, i.e. do they form independent canon or are both part of the overall continuity?

    A: There is one overall continuity.


    There, case closed. Because you view it one way, doesn't mean that all other fans have to treat it same way. In fact, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, those who follow the official word of the company's Continuity Keeper, might be a bit more right in their words.

    The G and T continuity established by Lucas is self-sustained, yes: you can watch only movies and get a comprehensive picture (not so much with TCW and its timeline issues...) while the EU requires from you previous knowledge of the movies as the very basic. But I guarantee you, you won't find a statement from LFL official that supports your theory of separate Universes 1-2-3. There is One and only One Star Wars universe, with Movies and TCW at the core and EU surrounding it and filling the blanks. You want to only watch the core story, fine, you don't need anything else. However, all of the EU is still out there.

    Going with your Santa Claus analogy... you can believe whatever you want (Santa Claus is real!!11) and that's perfectly fine. However, others might find that a bit strange when you ignore the facts that are common knowledge (for us fans, that is).
  19. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    This is interesting thing- i don't trust Chee anyway- he is the one who claimed Rune Haako is in ep2 [face_tired] damn that guy shouldn't be continuity keeper -for me that neimoidian is Gilramos Libkath.... but still i feel bad for Chee right now- he is really between devil and the deep blue sea due to TCW..... I think they should change the continuity- i don't support separate universes theory but many eu-facts should simply be declared errors or non-canon stories like infinities are
  20. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    Daft-Vader, are you, by any chance, the same Daft_Vader who was once a frequent poster on massassi.net? (Probably not, but just curious)

    And don't be funny and come back with a 'No, I am your father' comment. :p
  21. Mange Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2003
    star 4
    No, you don't and that's somewhat of a false dilemma. Me, for instance, is a fan of the EU but that doesn't mean I like or care about all the EU or includes it in my 'personal' canon (to avoid any misunderstandings: when discussing the bigger picture, then the official canon is valid of course). I personally think some authors (such as Zahn, Luceno and Stover) have a better grasp of Star Wars and generally are better authors than some of the other EU authors and I think that's more important than that it says "Star Wars" on the cover or its canon status. All people have different tastes and I can't imagine myself being alone in being selective when it comes to the EU.

    When did the books have a "seemless flow"? There has been retcon after retcon for as long as I can remember.
  22. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Really- I'm glad you're here to tell us these things[face_tired] .... really that's such a limited view of the Star Wars and EU- i think you don't mean that really -because i cannot believe anyone could really see it only that way[face_shame_on_you] many eu-stories have nothing to do with each other you don't have to accept all- it's odd limitation anyway- because eu should be fun- that your description is..... prison of imagination -and the just that "EU" i don't like not even eu-authors themselves accept all previous material- why fans should- i can never see EU that way- EU is not consistent to me -it's collection of stories that are connected to each other but they are also independent storylines some good some bad.... anyway what do you even think you are when you're giving "orders" like that?:mad: - I am not going to embrace it all and you cannot make me to.....
  23. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    Have I been misunderstood or what? I wasn't giving orders to anybody - of course there are some EU stories better than the others. And one simply cannot read all of the EU stories present - there are simply too many to track. And one can definitely choose to pass on some less than perfect examples: I could never bear myself to watch Holiday Special or read Galaxy of Fear series. What I meant to say is that regardless whether you choose to read them or not - those stories still happened and you cannot dismiss the events in them just because "Hey, that game is 8 years old, surely nobody would play that now, why not just ignore it!".
  24. Gry Sarth Ex 2x Banhammer Wielding Besalisk Mod

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 5
    The bit of misunderstanding is that, yes, you CAN dismiss the events of any stories you want. Unless you're specifically discussing "official Lucasfilm continuity and canon", people can include or dismiss whatever they like. This is a misunderstanding that often occurs in such discussions.

    Yes, official continuity doesn't dismiss any canon stories. But YOU can dismiss whatever you want.
  25. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Those stories didn't happen- Star Wars is fiction- and i think you can choose what happened when happenings are equally fictional- it's one point of view but i don't really think you have to stick with official canon because it's all fiction after all- you cannot blame they wouldn't be canon- but you can blame they aren't part of your "personal canon"- apparently you have obsessed to official canon when you never even thought the possibility of creating canon of your own[face_thinking] - why it's forbidden- you can believe in Santa Claus if you want to- you can believe that your neighbour is fictional- they don't change the facts- but in fiction other laws apply- why you can't create your own canon? Say one good reason and i stop being eu-fan instantly and instead i ally myself with Supershadow:p .... not really- i can never join him- he have took his own canon too far...

    But ok.... sorry i overreacted before... That sentence made my blood to boil:p I'll try to be calm now... no anger..... no anger....... I can watch Holiday special if i skip all musical scenes and that guy who "drinks" though his head.... still it's pretty awful...animation is the best part[face_laugh] frankly it's better than Corruption or Academy... actually it's equal to Mystery of Thousand Moons