Official D&D 4th edition Thread

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by darthmythos, Jan 11, 2008.

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  1. HansHunkyChest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2003
    star 1
    I think it makes a lot of sense to use the lower volume game (SW) to test out plans for the higher volume game. Besides that Wizards is interested in pushing the D20 mechanic so they need to keep their actively developed games up to date.
  2. NECRONAL Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Personally, my biggest problem with 4E was that they've dumbed everything down. Really, really down. I mean, in the PHB, the classes have pretty much been made with a cookie-cutter: you're either this sort of wizard, or that sort of wizard. And what's with the static hit points increase? Did somebody complain too much about rolling 1s for their new HP at every level?

    It almost seems as if the people at WotC think that we're all a bunch of illiterate cavemen, with the collective creativity of a fifth-degree droid.[face_frustrated]
  3. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    It's not a game unless you're taking ten minutes to page through three books to see if you can give someone the finger without him cutting it off.

    Completely unfair, 3e allowed you to be either a chump with a sword or a spell-slinging harvester of worlds that dictated the path of the party.

    Who needs fairness when you've got capricious fate determining every aspect of your adventuring career! You should be rolling each level to determine your attack, save, skill and class bonuses! The DM shouldn't be able to make a good judgment about what constitutes a balanced encounter for a balanced party, he should have to wrack his brain! This is WAR, and there will be CASUALTIES!

    A streamlined and unified mechanical system with benchmarks for every level of power? What, do they want me to create my own material? By re-working their system they have closed off vital character options? I have a right to perform a 380 foot longjump that changes the crowd's attitude to "fanatic", and Wizards of the CASH has taken it from me with their greed! [face_frustrated]

    Nerdrage aside, do you want to have a serious discussion about this? A lot of these simplifications were the reworking of really awkwardly complex mechanics (TURN UNDEAD), ones that took away from the general "do hero stuff" (like "Save or Fail" spells), created annoying/boring book-keeping (X rounds duration until something recharges, or until you're no longer paralyzed and can actually pay attention to the game again. Skill points), or resulted in extreme gimmick builds (tripathons, TWF spam, lion totem barbarians, polymorph effects). What stuff are you truly missing? Also, for some reason, I've never played with anyone who didn't use fixed HP amounts (usually 1/2 or 3/4ths) for fairness and to cut down on book-keeping./>
  4. NECRONAL Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2008
    Nerdrage, eh? well, that's the first time I've heard frustrated annoyance referred to as that.o_O

    All joking aside, I didn't mind those clunky 3.5E rules so much. They actually required a degree of mental investment in running the game. And the saving throws? Those made things a lot more interesting. The saving throws that they have now are...odd, to put it bluntly. Why should the frail have the same chance of shrugging off a fatal disease as a character with a Constitution of 18? Why should an armor-laden dwarf paladin be able to retain his footing on shaking ground with the same degree of difficulty as the halfing rogue? Why should a fighter with an Wisdom of 7 be able to overcome the magical trap that felled the party's wizard, by rolling an 11?

    Yes, the 4E rules are streamlined. However, they have taken away the very things that used to make D&D such an excellent game--its diversity and originality. No two characters from the same race and class will ever be truly different from one another in terms of abilities. Everything that used to make the classes distinctive is being eroded for the sake of equalization. Never again will we hear tales of the rogue who scaled an iceberg to find a frost giant's hoard, or the wizard who ruled the land with an iron fist and floating fortress, or the fighter who somehow cut the throat of an invisible green dragon while he was drowning. (that last one was me, by the way--scored a maximized critical hit with my Kensai scythe. o_O)

    And so, I bid 4E adieu. The new kids can have it, but I'll stick to 3.5 and the Saga Edition Star Wars, if you don't mind. (oh, and you're right: most of the RPs here aren't that great.)
  5. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Well, I now know for certain that you have no idea as to what you're talking about, so I feel relieved.

    Ok, first off, the saving throw system: You've got it completely, totally, and utterly wrong. You have heard of the "roll 1d20, on a 10 or higher, you pass", though you're unfamiliar with the context. All these things you're referring to... don't involve the "saving throw" system. Instead, you now have four defenses: Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflex and Will. Their base values are equal to 10+1/2 your level, and are modified by stats, class and equipment.

    AC: You add your Intelligence or Dexterity bonus if you're wearing light armor (but not heavy. To compensate, heavy armor provides some hefty defense)
    Fort: Add the highest of either your Strength or Constitution modifiers.
    Ref: Add the highest of either your Dexterity or Intelligence modifiers.
    Will: Add the highest of either your Wisdom or Charisma modifiers.

    You get a boost ranging from +0 to +2 to each defense depending on your class. For instance, fighters get +2 to Fortitude, Wizards get +2 to Will, Rangers get +1 to Fortitude and Reflex. You may also get a bonus depending on your feats or race (humans get a +1 bonus to all defenses because they're just that nifty)

    Different attacks target different defenses. For instance, a weapon attack will usually target AC, while a poison will target Fortitude, a fireball will target Reflex, and a psychic attack will target Will. Different targets have different strong and weak points, so you can mix it up, especially with some of the weapon-based classes. For example, Rogues have "Piercing Strike", which is a normal attack that targets reflex instead of AC, slipping through the joints in the target's armor.

    So where does this "saving throw" system come in? Well, remember all those attacks that imposed a condition on you for NdX rounds? This replaces that. Instead of giving you a time-table that meant you pretty much had to sit and do nothing for several turns, effects are written as something like "stunned (save ends)". At the end of your turn, you roll a saving throw, and if it's 10 or higher, you break free. There's still chances that you might not get to do anything, but that's entirely the point of these things. Plus, it doesn't mean you're completely down. There are plenty of powers that allow you or your allies to make a saving throw to shake off a condition. Thus teamwork can dramatically change the way the game plays. This process is also used for bleeding out. Instead of "oh, I'm at -6 HP, please get to me within the next four rounds", you have to fail three death saves before you finally kick it (though if you roll a 20, you can get back up and get in the fight). It makes it much more interesting. It's not just a coin flip either, there are bonuses and penalties that can be applied based on race, feats, or powers. For instance, a cleric might have a power that lets a target save against an effect with a bonus equal to his or her charisma, while dwarves get a +5 bonus on saves against poison effects that require a saving throw. Really tough monsters may get a bonus to saves as well, to prevent people from stun-locking them if they're supposed to be the only monster on the field.

    And now that we've demonstrated that you're wrong, let me further embellish it by proving that 4e accounts for all of these situations you've mentioned.

    Disease: Let's give your situation a go here... we've got our wizard with a Constitution of 8 who spent most of his childhood indoors, and then we've got our hulking hunk of a fighter here with a Constitution of 18 who's ready to flex those pecs. For giggles, let's assume that they're both level 8. Now, let's compare some numbers here.

    Fortitude= 10 + 1/2 level (that's 4 in this case) + the higher of Strength or Constitution modifiers + class bonuses + feats + neck slot magic item (let's be nice and assume they both have +2 items, though it may be items with different powers and properties!)

    Fi Tor the Strong: 10 + 4 + 4 (though since
  6. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    And I was just going to say "give the new game a chance".
    Yes, at first glance, it does look like the options have been cut down. But really, they've been expanded. How many ways are there for you to say "I swing my sword at the troll"? And that is about 75% or more of what fighters do in any previous edition. Now, there are basic attacks and a wide variety of other powers.
    As for only having 2 types of characters...
    Well, there are 4 power options for each level. Most characters can only choose 1. So, when your fighter reaches 5th level, he has 4 options for new power. Now, 2 of them are going to be better suited to him than the other 2, but that doesn't mean he can't take the less suitable. In practical terms, there are at least 4 options for each race/class combination. Not to mention how the different ability scores change builds.
    "Why would you make a dwarf fighter with only a 15 str and give him a 14 wis?" well, this is a shiled defender fighter, and his wisdom bonus gives him +2 to hit with attacks of opportunity. Thus, finally there is a reason for fighter to not have only 10 or less in Int and Wis. In fact, you don't want to have any "dump stats" anymore, as a low score in any area can cause a severe liability.
    At the momment, I play a tactical support "Devoted Cleric" who mostly hangs back and throws short range attacks which don't do much, but add all kinds of bonuses to others and heals them. OK, the personality is based on an old song by Eartha Kitt and Yzma from Emperor's New Groove, but whatever.

    In many ways, 4th edition is a completely different animal from previous. Yes, there are flaws, but each edition since the first has taken large steps to weed out the illogical elements of the founding system and make the game easier to learn and faster paced. Remember when a peasant in the field had AC10, but with armor could work his way up to AC0, then add magic to get all the way to AC-10? Did that make sense to anyone? Not really. How about those complicated hit charts? The ones that were later replaced with THAC0? Not that logical either if you think about it. What wizard would take "Tenser's Floating Disk" at first level? NONE! They usually would have to decide between Sleep and Magic Missile. Now a lot of the non-combat spells are "rituals" and don't take away from valuable power slots or combat abilities.
    Durations are now "one round" "End of next turn" "until save" "Next attack" "end of encounter" or "24 hours".

    My biggest gripe with 4th Ed is the shoddy printing. Sweaty hands, greasy fingers, or spilled soda can smudge the ink right off the page. This means whoever was in charge of the paper/ink at the publishers did not know what they were doing. I'm not an expert on the matter, but as a former employee of McGraw-Hill, I know several people who are, and they'd have put a serious negative remark if not outright fired someone who bungled a major product launch that badly.
    Hopefully there will be reprints which will adress this problem.
  7. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Ink usually isn't a problem if you buy pdfs. They're really nice and big and clear too, if you're the kind of nerd who hauls a laptop to gaming sessions. Admittedly, there's a certain tactile thing you just don't get when you're not using books, but it's a decent option, especially if you combine it with the character builder tools.

    In regards to the idea of characters looking the same, not only do you have the several power options per level, but WotC does their usual splatbook stuff. The Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms has a new class (swordmage, an arcane defender), and a new pact for warlocks (shadow). Martial Power, available on Tuesday, has a bunch of new options for the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and Warlord, expanding each class by maybe two to three times. Yes, I can hear the nerds in the back grumbling, but this is how WotC makes money. They couldn't possibly make a single book that contains everything you want, and even if they could, it would run them out of business. All we have to worry about is if we like what they're releasing.
  8. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I don't mind the "splat books", so long as they continue to publish good adventures.
  9. inkpenavenger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2005
    star 1
  10. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Yes!
    I played a barbarian in 3.5 who had no magic items, hated/feared magic, and destroyed valuable magic items unless stopped by the priest. He respected the priest. The priest would give him "blessed" weapons, armor, and such. These were "holy" items that the priest had inspected to ensure their purity.

    I also had a dwarf bard loremaster.

    Peta, the elf druid (everyone hated him and cheered when he died)

    But that's lvl 3 gaming, and I'm still working on fully attaining it.
  11. Roslyn Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2008
    As has been mentioned, Saga Edition was explicitly a test run of sorts for 4th Edition.

    Will it affect it? I suspect only in the sense that eventually, when they decide to print a new edition of Star Wars, it may well serve as a test platform of sorts for D&D 4.5, or 5, or whatever.

    On a personal note, I was prepared to hate 4th Edition, and my first reading through it confirmed (to me at least) my hate thereof.

    But as I and a friend opened an online gaming chat for 4th Edition (shameless plug, you can find us here at Terres: Shadows of the Dark Gods and are welcome to join!) that, actually playing it changed my mind completely. It's more intuitive, faster rules-wise, and doesn't get in the way of the actual play, which are all important pluses for me.

    That said, I am newer to Saga Edition, having thumbed it when it came out, but had no use for it. Now, given that I am supporting a Star Wars online chat game (second plug, more shameless than the first! Star Wars online chat game!) I've given it a second look and find it a neat combination of 3.5 and 4. I'm hoping it plays well, but can't speak from experience yet.
  12. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    This is all I'm going to say on 4E D&D and I'll say it with a lot of contempt in my text voice:


    Its a Video Game on Tabletop. :mad:



    That reminds me of a Barbarian one of my mates played. He hates magic and magic items so much we had to hide the stuff from him and keep him from throttling our mage. Eventually he "accepted" the mage after said mage saved his butt.
  13. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Now there's an informed position.

    Care to tell me what makes it so much a video game that doesn't apply to 3.Xe?
  14. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I've heard the argument before from both sides way too many times to be interested in hearing it again. If you don't like it, don't play it.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to prepping my next D6 SW game while waiting for the GM to need a break with the D&D4.0 because... Oh wait, no I won't because I can prep my game in 5-15 minutes!
  15. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    For those of you who haven't played the game and have no wish to correct any of your misconceptions, please ignore this post. For those of you who'd like to give it a fair shake, consider attending the Worldwide D&D Game Day at your friendly local game shop. Even if you're already playing, there's new stuff from the Player's Handbook II out, as well as Divine Power. Stop on by a store in your area.
  16. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    I am wondering if this could be the official D&D 4E thread?

    Can I have some opinions? These are the first two I have created with D&D, and I'm still learning.

    The whole video game aspects is a fair assessment from what I have seen. I thought I wouldn't see spells comign out of nowhere outside of Diablo.
  17. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    The whole video game aspects is a fair assessment from what I have seen. I thought I wouldn't see spells comign out of nowhere outside of Diablo.

    Please explain.

    Anyways, working our way through the character sheets, first up is the wizard:
    -Astral Fire requires both a 13 in Dexterity and Charisma both, so you don't actually qualify for that one.
    -With that in mind, your damage bonuses to all your spells should be +5 (+4 Intelligence bonus, +1 for your +1 magic orb, you don't add half your level to damage)
    -You have "Campaign bonus: +2 to second ability" written. Which ability score was that?
    -Your HP is 28 at 3rd level. 10 base + 10 Con +4 points for level 2 + 4 points for level 3. Thus your bloodied value should be 14 and your healing surge value is 7.


    Paladin time:
    -Your stats are really low. Before racial modifiers, you were using a 16 point buy instead of a 22 point buy, so your stats could be much higher.
    -Speaking of which, you want at least a 16 in your primary attack stat before racial modifiers. No exceptions. The paladin is one of what is sometimes referred to as a "V-shaped class" in that it has two different primary attack stats depending on what you want to do (either Strength or Charisma). Other V-shaped classes include the cleric (strength or wisdom), the ranger (strength or dexterity) and the warlock (constitution or dexterity). When the PHB recommends that you put you second best ability score into the other side of the V so that you may use powers from both ability scores, it's usually not a good idea unless you really know what you're doing, since you'll often get better results if you just pick one score and focus on it, using your +1 to two ability scores every 4 levels to boost your primary attack stat, as well as your secondary one that serves as a rider for powers (charisma for clerics, wisdom for paladins and rangers, intelligence for warlocks). Since you're a half-elf with a charisma bonus, I'd recommend picking charisma as your primary attack stat, but if your concept is one of strength then you could go with that instead. Either way, you want a base of 16 in that stat before you add on your racial modifiers, otherwise you're going to miss more than half of the time.
    -Bolstering Strike doesn't really do anything for you since you lack a Wisdom bonus. You're better off with Enfeebling Strike in the event that you decide to keep a charisma-based at-will.
    -If you do go with Charisma, you might want to exchange your Dilettante power for a charisma-based attack power, such as the warlock's Eldritch Strike (Charisma vs. AC, does 1[W]+Charisma bonus and slides the target 1 square, can be used as a basic melee attack), or the bard's Guiding Strike (Charisma vs. AC, does 1[W]+Charisma bonus and you apply a -2 penalty to a defense of the target's of your choice until the end of your next turn).
    -Radiant Delirium is a Daily power, not an encounter power, but that's a minor issue.
    -Paladins don't normally start with rituals, that's a cleric or invoker thing.
    -See if someone in your group has access to either the Character Builder from Wizards of the Coast or Arcane Power, as there's a bunch of stuff there for making a paladin good at handling more than one opponent (as well as making sure that he or she can fight if the paladin is charisma-based).
    -You probably should make sure to factor your shield bonus into your quick look-up area. Also, paladins get a +1 bonus to Fortitude, Reflex and Will, so you'll want to put that down under your class bonuses.
    -Your HP and surges are incorrect, but that can probably wait until your stats are bumped up to standard levels.

    If you want help, just explain what your concept is and I can help you fix it. Right now I don't know where you're going with this.
  18. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    BTW, I do have the character builder but these character sheets have rather different importnance. The Wizard is for an online campaign which is why it's more detailed, the Paladin is for a actual tabletop one so it was just a quick reference for the DM.

    - The Charisma was something I changed in character builder, thanks for the headsup.
    - The changed ability score was Intelligence, which I purposely maxed out to give myself some good damage
    - The hit points, you're right about that and thanks.

    Paladin

    -I missed out on adding two points to Constitution that was in the program one
    -You're right about my Charisma, it was too low. It's 16 base before modifiers in the builder one
    -Changed Bolstering to Ardent strike, since I updated the builder to full version
    -The Tide of Iron shield attack is particuarly close to me, for the simple reason I want to attack with my shield. Find me a better one that does the same sort thing and I'll use it. Call me sentimental, but I've liked Paladins ever since Diablo II when I could do this.

    Okay, they're updated. Thanks for the comb over as they really needed it.
  19. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    Many of the powers are just hard to suspend your disbelief, and the hoc "Power Source" they use to explain it makes it even weirder. My dwarven fighter teleports all over the place!

    I think its what he meant, but its what I think
  20. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Is it a video game? Well, I can see some similarities.
    Is it BAD that it's a video game? No.
    C'mon, how many 1st level wizards learned Tenser's Floating Disk? NONE. It was Magic Missile or Sleep, and that was about it. Illusionists learned Phantasmal Force.
    2nd Ed helped a bit. 3rd a bit more. 3.5 cleaned up the mistakes.
    4th has greatly improved the spell system, and made the non-combat spells something useful for and accessable to everyong.

    What did fighters do in all the previous editions: "I swing my sword at the monster." The weapon may change, but that was about it. Even at 1st level, my Dwarven Fighter had lots of better options: Tide of Iron let him hit someone and push him back. Cleave, instead of being the over-powered mess that it used to be, now lets him inflict minor damage on a second target (usually used for popping minions. Covering attack lets him do double damage once per encounter and allow another player (like a squishy wizard) to get out from a dangerous melee--You know, the sort of heroic rescue that most fighters dream of. And once per day, he can perform Chrushing Blow, and do 3x Damage. And the variety of uses and options only expands.

    Healing spells no longer have to take up all of the cleric's options. Other classes can heal (though priests are still better at it than anyone else. They have a lot more options open to them.

    And that is just the Players' Handbook.
  21. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I always wanted to smush people with Tenser's Floating Disc but the DM wouldn't allow it. :_|
  22. Koohii Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    For those of you whining about saving throws:
    All of the save or your character is dead, period stuff is gone.

    Why does the guy with the 18 constitution have the same chance of saving as a guy with an 8? Simple, because the guy with the 18 Con is going to be a lot less likely to be affected in the first place, while the guy with the 8 isn't going to be hosed for the rest of the fight. Think of it this was: someone who is exposed to colds all the time is going to have a tough immune system, and won't even necessarily get sick or have symptoms when exposed, but once he has the bug, he's down for exactly the same as everyone else. Same with all other defences.
  23. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "My dwarven fighter teleports all over the place!"

    Please elaborate.
  24. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    He might have Boots of Teleportation, a level 28 item (2.125 million gp) from the Adventurer's Vault that lets you teleport your speed as a move action. They're hot.

    People do seem to have this strange hatred of martial characters. Then again, nerds would be the ones most likely to assume that it is impossible to perform feats of athletic skill without supernatural aid.
  25. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    Anyone had a good look at the DMG2 yet? I've only had a rough glance, any thoughts?
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