Full Series Official Darth Vader in Rebels Discussion Thread

Alternatively - once you've become a Sith, no-one can take it away. Just replacing Maul, doesn't make Maul any less a Sith Lord.

 

I agree with this because Sidious calls Maul a Rival and I think that right there shows that even Sheev thought of him as another Sith Lord.

 

Well, that makes it a very exclusive title. It is still a "title".

I personally would like to see more actual Sith philosophy, Sith traditions, Sith history and so on. It is an order, it is supposed to have all these things. The Sith would also be more interesting if they had philosophies and goals beyond "rar I want power", even if it is extreme social darwinism. And what does the Bane linage mean to the Sith? Do they actively worship him?

This nothing more person knows more of the Dark Side and its techniques than the newly crowned Darth Vader in ROTS and also has more control over herself.

 

Good for her. Power levels don't make a sith, ideologies do, as well as being a member of the actual Sith order.

I agree though that they should delve more into Sith history. Right now it's not much more than an order of anti-Jedi dark side users with goals of galactic domination.[/quote]

Exactly. There is not much of an uniting ideology.

 

Whatever they do, I don't want to see any of the Bane trilogy's "you're not a true Sith if you aren't interested in betraying your master" nonsense. There's plenty of reasons to choose to remain an apprentice besides being weak.

 

A long long time ago, in another galaxy, Sith was just a word for a dark Jedi. But it evolved to something else.

 

Unless all Sith holocrons were destroyed, you can't become a Sith just by finding a Sith holocron as indicated by references to the Sith being "extinct" and "destroying" the Sith.

 

Sith was originally the name of a species of highly Force-sensitive red-skinned humanoids native to Korriban. They were a primitive pre-industrial people. Meanwhile, out in the wider galaxy you got the Jedi Great Schism occurring, resulting in a war... between those who thought using the Dark Side was OK, and those who didn't. The Don't-use-Darkside side won, and the 12 masters of the Dark Side using faction surrendered, and were exiled into an unknown region of space. They stumbled upon Korriban with its population of Force-sensitives, and set up a home there, uplifting the technological level of the natives while also teaching them their Dark Side philosophies and the ways of the Force.

Since there were only 12 original Dark Jedi and hundreds of millions (at least) of Sith, the original Dark Jedi died out after a time but their teachings and ways lived on in the newly up-teched Sith, now a Force-wielding, Dark Side using, spacefaring civilization. They built themselves up an empire, which eventually began taking in Dark Side Force users from other species, but the core was mostly Korribani Sith... and so the name, Sith, which originally referred to the species, now came in the common consciousness of people in the galaxy at large, to refer to any Dark Side Force wielder, no matter what species they were.

And the rest is history...

 

Mybe a misunderstanding. I meant back in the days, when Star Wars came out here on earth. Originally Sith was just another name for a Dark Jedi.

But yes, also in a larger Star Wars scheme of things, Sith are much more closer related to Jedi (and in fact are Jedi) than some strange force using traditions out there.

 

So I see where not talking about Darth Vader anymore.

 

As far as been seen one cannot unbecome a Sith Lord unless he's dead so far. Sidious had to make sure Anakin killed Tyranus while he wanted to make sure Vader hands Luke over to him which unknown to Vader apparently was mainly to see if Luke was strong enough to kill Vader and if so would replace him as his servant apprentice and not keep the two. Tyranus expressed shock that Palpatine ordered his execution(the script has added dialogue of Dooku warning Anakin as a foreshadowing effect of that would occur on Death Star II). Maul, Vader and Tyranus likely all forgot the one and only rule of the Sith, there can only be two at time. Maul was ready to hand over Mandalore and pledge himself to Sidious but Sidious saw that Maul was training his own apprentice and got even more angry. Sidious was aware of the mistake he made in forsaking his fallen apprentice years earlier plus Dooku was on his las leg as he was something of a problem during the toon with a string of failures which he had to reprimand him over and he also had to give the order to kill Ventress(which acted both a punishment to him as it would weaken him and remind him who the boss is and a punishment to Ventress for becoming too powerful a possible rival to his reign). Vader had to be near dead to become Anakin Skywalker once again and he died Anakin Skywalker instead of Darth Vader but that is on a symbolic and personal level than any kinda official proceedings . Anakin pledged himself to the Sith teachings thus religion to serve the dark lord.

With Sidious failing to destroy Darth Maul means technically he is not replaced, and even Sidious himself has broken the Rule of Two, once not making sure his apprentice was dead and again for failing in killing him- hence means there is 3 Darth's out there - It is not like he's calling himself Maul Opress these days. Maul being apparently the last padawan Sith following Bane's legacy as Dooku and Anakin were former Jedi Knights. So far in canon we have not seen a Sith Lord officially renounce being a Sith, had Maul's plan to kill Sidious succeeded it looked like he wanted to build a new order out've the roots of Dathomir which appeared like it would've meant a mingled darkside Sith and Nightsister alliance of power - basically an darkside army of Nightbrothers and Nightsisters and instead of Clones there would Mandalorians as soldiers. It it feasible that Talzin at top form could've dark force supercharged Nightbrothers and Nightsisters in the same or similar manner she had done to Opress.

 

As I mentioned before, there isn't going to be any consensus on Dark Jedi vs Sith because whatever definition someone wants to use, there are examples of contradictions both within the current canon and in the EU.


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No, it wasn't and it never was. Here's what the ANH screenplay says:

"The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is Darth Vader, right hand of the Emperor. His face is obscured by his flowing black robes and grotesque breath mask, which stands out next to the fascist white armored suits of the mperial stormtroopers. Everyone instinctively backs away from the imposing warrior and a deathly quiet sweeps through the Rebel troops. Several of the Rebel troops break and run in a frenzied panic."

And here's what the ANH novelization says:

"Two meters tall. Bipedal. Flowing black robes trailing from the figure and a face forever masked by a functional if bizarre black metal breath screen— a Dark Lord of the Sith was an awesome, threatening shape as it strode through the corridors of the rebel ship. Fear followed the footsteps of all the Dark Lords. The cloud of evil which clung tight about this particular one was intense enough to cause hardened Imperial troops to back away, menacing enough to set them muttering nervously among themselves. Once- resolute rebel crew members ceased resisting, broke and ran in panic at the sight of the black armor— armor which, though black as it was, was not nearly as dark as the thoughts drifting through the mind within. One purpose, one thought, one obsession dominated that mind now. It burned in the brain of Darth Vader as he turned down another passageway in the broken fighter. There smoke was beginning to clear, though the sounds of faraway fighting still resounded through the hull. The battle here had ended and moved on."

I don't see anything about dark Jedi in either of those. For all we know from those two descriptions, "the Sith" is Vader's Stormtrooper legion and each Stormtrooper legion is led by a "Dark Lord", just like an Imperial governor is a "Grand Moff".

This is true in Legends, but has absolutely no basis in canon.

 

I hope JEJ is voicing Vader again. Why there no voice actor listed in this Star Wars insider scan?

 

Maybe he just appears and doesn't say anything?

 

Maybe, that would be a shame tho. Everytime I hear JEJ speak it's awesomeness.

 

@ Vorax

If they have forgotten about the Rule of Two, so has the Emperor in TESB. Funny how all of the Sith don't seem to remember it at points. The Rule of Two is one big fat mess, in my own canon Palpatine stopped to follow it during the clone wars.

http://slckismet.blogspot.co.at/2013/10/in-star-wars-does-rule-of-two-make-it.html

 

@ Darth_Pevra

Under the edict established by Lucas, it is best understood that under Bane's Rule Of Two, there can be only two actual Darth's at any given time. If there is more than they'd have to fight to the death where only one Sith Lord Master exists and decides the Sith Lord Apprentice to reconstitute the Order Of Two. The rule likely speaks of nothing about training darkside warriors to serve their needs, namely in a time after the Rule of Bane accomplished its mission of destroying the Jedi - but they still cannot be ordained a Sith and arent privy to much of the actual historic, religious and ritualistic nature of the Sith and so many powers and abilities are unknown to these disciples of the Sith. They are only taught a certain a mount, their training may be more military-like as they're more like expendable soldiers and assassins - but the option does exist that if the Sith Apprentice or Sith Master die, then from that pool another Sith can emerge rather the Sith going extinct . An Inquisitor Adept character can only do so much, but a well trained Jedi of old would be more than a match as he lacks either the extensive training of a Jedi or Sith Lord. Darth Plagueis's apprentice Sidious had to wait to kill his Sith Master in his sleep and had to wait until he believed the Master was no longer needed and that he was taught everything he needed to know. Sith Masters seem to live very long abnormal lives, where the apprentice isnt getting any younger and would still be subservient .

The Darth Bane illusion or spirit which ever one it is, implies that you'd learn from him to become all powerful Sith, but can only take his place by killing him or trying, which itself can be a ploy, as Sidious used that same kinda aggressive temptation challenge in his attempt to turn Luke, to snare him in a net to possess him as the apprentice. But if Yoda had chose to embrace Bane and become his apprentice than that would be a rival new Sith Lord. A Sith Lord has the ability to ordain another Sith, one the master and one the apprentice and challenge the older one.

My impression was that Vader at first wanted to train Luke himself to be his assassin/apprentice and tried keeping Luke a secret from Sidious, but Sidious learned of Luke's existence anyway. Vader tried acting coy and nonchalant about Luke when confronted on the hologram, but its likely Sidious saw through Vader's motives to where Vader realizing his shot was lost now. In ROTJ Vader may of dampened Luke's presence and had mix feelings regarding Luke but ultimately he goes and tells Sidious that Luke landed on Endor. I think in ROTS the parallel scene is when Anakin is confused to whether or not to take Palpatine up on his offer or tell the Jedi he's the Sith Lord. He eventually tells the Jedi but runs back to save Sidious. Sidious makes sure in ROTJ that Vader brings Luke before him and use the ploy with only together will they turn Luke to the darkside. Sidious wanted to see if Luke was strong enough to take his fathers place, or he'd destroy him and either be content with Vader or try again with Leia.

I mentioned Sidious forgot himself, or chooses to ignore it, until he invokes it when a problem becomes a personal threat to his existence where he has to personally step up. His overconfidence and ego are likely too great, so he plays very close to the fire but he does get burned every so often. Sidious apparently allows for Adepts/disciple but they are not Sith Lords. A Sith Lord apprentice is the equivalent of a Jedi Knight Master, so even they can take an apprentice as they reserve that right as a Knight to take a squire. Sidious being like a Yoda type Jedi Master can allow for multiple adepts for himself as he is the leader of the Sith religious sect which was something like Children of the Force was implying that he'd have his own darkside minions that would protect him from threats . Tyranus was allowed his own(Ventress) apprentice until Sidious sensed her becoming too strong and she had to die before was at the point which she would be more powerful than he can handle - same with Maul when he was forced to deal with him a few occasions. it is unknown if Tyranus told Sidious of his new apprentice. Maul was training a Sith Apprentice in Savage, much like Tyranus was doing with Ventress and started to Savage. As Sith Lords they can train official apprentices, but it up to the reigning Sith Lord Master to decide whether or not to continue this or end it. The Inquisitor is an example of a sanctioned apprentice

Even the Jedi do not allow for more than one apprentice per Jedi Master, the Sith apparently follow that same code on a more micro-managed scale.

Dooku was of advanced age and Vader was also aging and was crippled following the duel on Mustafar, and Sidious was no young buck, so the possibility exists that they needed to adjust things as they needed younger warriors to back them up against younger and potentially more powerful Jedi or rival Darkside threats(Darth Maul and characters like Talzin). Sidious & Tyranus needed also a warrior like Grievous and Magnaguards to aid them. Sidious allowing Dooku a personal assassin was to mainly provide him personal security and a warrior that young and virile to engage multiple Jedi.

Plus the Children of the Force were to have been surgically brain altered via slave conditioning, they were single-minded slave servants and lacking the free will of an actual Sith Apprentice. They couldve also had some sorta biochip implanted as well to only serve Sidious.

Vader being brought in, seems to be really point to a disturbance in the force, as the Adept and Tarkin arent enough or succeeding so needs to make an appearance to motivate.

 

I'm not sure what mystery powers and abilities there are that make the Sith special. Maybe the ability to endure otherwise lethal injuries like Vader and Maul did? That's the first thing that springs to mind, but unfortunately it isn't really confirmed that this is an "only Sith technique".

I find it very hard to buy into your claim that Luke was only supposed to become another Inquisitor-type ... when Sidious himself said Luke could destroy them. Simply put: Luke has too much raw potential to remain in a low position for long. If we look at the history at this movies, there obviously never was a ROT when the OT was filmed. Inserting this thing retroactively into the storyline just causes problems and lets both Sith look like utter fools. My conclusion is, that in the OT, the ROT simply wasn't relevant anymore. I find that a more fulfilling explanation.

 

This is conjecture on my part, but I'm guessing Lucas invented the Rule of Two in order to retroactively explain why there are only two Sith in the OT, when they are at the height of their power - the same as the number of Jedi, when the latter are all but destroyed.

So I can see why he invented the Rule of Two, since that explains things. But it also makes ESB and ROTJ awkward. Palpatine and Vader both talk about turning Luke. In ESB, Vader says Luke will "join us or die."

A counter argument could be that Luke may have become an Inquisitor or something like that, but in ROTJ this is clearly not the case. Vader outright tells Luke that Palpatine will be his master; Palpatine tells Luke that he will complete his training and, "in time you will call me Master." It seems pretty clear that Palpatine is going to be Luke's master, Vader seems OK with this, and Palpatine seemed OK with Vader handling the capture and delivery of Luke. If he had suspected Vader was going to try and plot against him with Luke, you'd think that he'd want to keep Vader and Luke as far apart as possible and not even tell Vader about Luke. You'd think he'd send an Inquisitor instead.

Recap:

• Luke is powerful enough to destroy Luke and the Emperor. The Emperor has foreseen this
• Vader is Luke's father.
• There can only be two Sith (established in TPM)
• Vader and Palpatine want Luke to be a Sith

I can't be the only one that notices how stupid the Rule of Two makes Palpatine look here. He entrusts Vader with the capture and delivery of a particular individual powerful enough to destroy Palpatine. He wants to train Luke to be a Sith. Meaning it should be pretty clear to Vader that he's not long for this world, if he obeys Palpatine. Yet he does, which makes him look like an idiot. And it makes Palpatine look like an idiot for trusting that Vader wouldn't play the "I am your father card" to win Luke over and turn him against Palpatine. If you remove the Rule of Two from the equation, then there's no problem.

And when you get characters like The Inquisitor and rationalize that there's no onscreen evidence to suggest that there aren't these Dark Side guys running around during the OT off screen, they could just as easily have argued that there were other Sith running around off screen. They could have made the Inquisitor Darth Whatever with the same logic that there were new Sith being trained following ROTS and that they were just off camera.

In interviews The Inquisitor is referred to as being something other than a Sith, but the difference isn't explained, since what makes a Sith a Sith is hardly explained. A Sith is a Dark Side using group that hates Jedi (that's about all you'll get from what's on screen). The Inquisitor is a Dark Sider that hunts Jedi down. If I weren't such a Star Wars geek and didn't know about the EU or participate with others in an online Star Wars community, I would have every reason to assume that the Inquisitor is a Sith. Pablo made one remark about him being different than the Sith because he doesn't draw upon hate to fuel his power, but this difference is never elaborated on screen. You get these "answers" in obscure interviews that only the geekiest of fans are even going to be aware of. The answers are never in the work itself, as they should be. I mean, Ahsoka accuses Asajj of being a Sith. Maul refers to himself and Savage as being Sith. Filoni - behind the scenes - then claims that both Asajj and Savage are not Sith. How many 10 year old kids that aren't posting on the Jedi Council forums and don't have the attention span to listen to podcast interviews with Filoni do you think are now under the impression that Asajj and Savage are Sith because that's what was said in the show?

 

I am now an Ashoka fan I don't no why.