***OFFICIAL**** Episode III Discussion thread

SS, I certainly dont think you any less of a fan than anyone else on the planet. I never meant to imply anyone was better or worse for liking one or all SW films more or less.

To clarify my frustration from my last post:

I'm just sick of the negativity.
Anyone who knows me well, knows that I like to analyze (but... I dont think I spell it correctly ) , and that very often leads to negative stuff.
I dont think thats good for me. I'm trying not to do it as much.
Its been very difficult, partly because of my chosen environments.
Ive been thinking about this a lot lately and watching the people around me with it in mind.
More often than not, any kind of analysis leads to more discussion about what people DONT like than what they DO like.
In this particular discussion, in this thread, one Star Wars fan asked a very "Star Wars" question - "why did Anakin turn to the darkside?"
Many of the following posts seemed to reflect the same infomation; he turned because of his relationships with Padme, Shmi, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine.

But many of those same posts also implied that because of Lucas' sub-par storytelling, we'd never know for sure.




Give me a break.
That just wasnt necessary. I felt it was just bashing for the sake of bashing. Some of the examples were.... frickin ridiculous.
Sometimes, I think there is just no pleasing some of you. Some of you others, I wonder why you even post here.

I mean come on - This is a question that we all kinda know the answers to. We could talk about it for hours. (We've done it before.)
But now that all the films are out, the excitement is over, and people are getting back to themselves, the negativity starts creeping in.
If you disagree, please go back through and read them all again. IMO, Its often hard to tell that we're talking about something we LIKE.
Swamped by pressure from work, home, school, etc., Ive watched as people get more and more negative.

I took this as an "in universe" question about Anakin as a human being, not as a creation of Lucas. But people kept answering with "out-of-universe" (or 'real life' ) information.

"Well, He didnt have the script done for 3 when he wrote 1, and so he screwed up on this, and this, and this,......."

bitch, bitch, bitch.
That just ruins my fun & pisses me off.

And when I tried to be positive and start the '101 reasons why we LOVE SW thread', somebody just had to start one about things we hate.

When I saw that, I gave up. If people want to remind themselves of disapointment and actually use time and energy to ponder things that BOTHER them - go ahead. Good luck with that.

I'm trying to focus on the positive.
And if I feel somebody raining on my parade, I'm gonna resist.

 

SW and its texts inspires religious devotion in its fans, and the "religions" in question are not the same. Just an observation.

Very true. Some fans are die hard nothing-else-exists-in-their-lives fans, others have it a piece of the wide range of things they like, some are die hard Rebels, others are die hard Imperials. And then there's a mish mash of everything in-between. And the Rebel/Imperial conversation is as bad as who gets to own the Gaza Strip, and I dare not even speak of the flame wars that will forever rage on about who gets the AOTC Troopers -- The Rebel Legion costumers, or the 501st costumers. LOL.

But many of those same posts also implied that because of Lucas' sub-par storytelling, we'd never know for sure.

It's true. We won't. You'll never know why the Man with the Yellow Hat wore a yellow hat all the time, because Curious George never tried getting a solid explanation in the stories. He just did. That's how the story went. He wore a yellow hat because he was supposed to, and Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he was supposed to.

And when I tried to be positive and start the '101 reasons why we LOVE SW thread', somebody just had to start one about things we hate.

And some people just need to learn how to take a joke, because not everyone is going to candy coat everything just because a couple people can't handle a sarcasm, cynicism, criticism, or negativity. Global warming is a fact, an ice age is coming someday, the ozone layer is falling apart, aliens are terraforming Earth into a suitable habitat for themselves and we'll all become their slaves, a comet might hit Earth tomorrow, the sun will explode in 4 billion years, a zombie outbreak is long overdue, the oil crash is coming in 50 years, and whether or not it all happens tomorrow, we're all gonna die someday anyway.

And for those that can't see the humor in that, well, I'm sorry that I just informed everybody that the global economy is doomed, and we're all gonna die. LOL. Just because a person makes a negative post doesn't mean they aren't laughing on the other side of the screen.

DOOM...is a great joke all by itself.

 

Sorry for the slowness in replying to the discussion, but I wanted to make sure I'd have enough time to do more than a one line answer. (On a bright note - yay, my computer is finally back up and running.)

A lot of this is in reply to SS's post...

A lot of important information about the Jedi came from TPM?????

Perhaps I shouldn't have phrased it that way; you're right, saying "a lot" could be misleading and misunderstood. What I was trying to express was that we were given a basic framework for the Jedi system, something we simply didn't get in the OT. But more importantly, we were given some of the key information about the Jedi as was relevent to Anakin. Sure, I wish we could have seen and learned more about the Jedi, but the focus of the PT is Anakin and his fall to the Dark Side.

We?re given very little indication that Obi Wan may/may not be prepared to take Anakin as his Padawan apprentice. The Council apparently places some amount of faith in his abilities by granting him the title of Jedi Knight after Qui Gon?s death, and allowing him to train Anakin. We unfortunately are left to ASSUME that he is ill equipped for the task.

I don't think we need dialog in the script to tell us that Obi-Wan probably wasn't prepared to take a Padawan. Everything doesn't have to be spoken out loud; actions and the storylines can speak for themselves. So yes, it is technically an assumption that Obi-Wan wasn't ready, but I think it's supported by the movie and by the way life is in general.

For most of TPM, Obi-Wan was an apprentice himself. One can guess that he was nearing the end of his training, but the fact remains that he was the student. He never had a chance to grow in the role of Jedi Knight, to mature and gain life experience in situations where he didn't have someone watching and directing him, before becoming a teacher himself. Maybe it's just general life experience, but I can't help but think that this was a critical gap for Obi-Wan. He had the skills to develop into one of the best Jedi Knights, but that doesn't mean he immediately had the skills and wisdom to take on a student. I think he was simply missing critical life experience by going directly from student to mentor.

The whole Jedi-Sith relationship never even really gets flushed out on ANY level until Episode III.

But what does this have to do with it? The point was that the Jedi had a blind spot regarding the Sith. They didn't even believe that the Sith could have returned without them knowing about it, at first, despite Qui-gon's evidence and opinion to the contrary. They also didn't appear to pick up on the true scope and purpose of the Naboo occupation. You don't have to know anything about any previous or future Jedi-Sith relationship to see that the Sith were scoring ahead of the Jedi here.

Again, until Episode III, when the Jedi actually ADMIT that they?ve been so deluded by the Dark Side to have been duped by Palpy, do we get ANY indication of what was happening behind the scenes.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that it wasn't till RotS that Jedi learned what was going on behind the scenes? Or that it wasn't till RotS that we saw just what the Jedi were thinking about what was going on? For the latter, I interpret the lack of discussion to have meant that they didn't really understand the scope of what was going on, and hence it was a lack of knowledge that led to ... nothing going on behind the scenes. I think they were just really lacking a clue, consistent with the initial reluctance to believe the Sith were back, the continued support of Palpatine, and the fact that it didn't occur to them that the clonetroopers were a danger to them.

I?m not sure I?d qualify his attachment to Mom as being ?strong? per se though. We really only know that he misses his mom, nothing more. As fans, we make the next step (or leap in some cases) and draw the conclusion that he possesses this strong attachment.

I would tend to disagree with that. They brou

 

And some people just need to learn how to take a joke, because not everyone is going to candy coat everything just because a couple people can't handle a sarcasm, cynicism, criticism, or negativity.

I can "handle" all of those things, and I'm guilty of them myself quite often.
I just dont enjoy them as much as you seem to.

 

yes those things are rather fun though not if they are in someone elses account
unless they are for a close friend

 

Episode III Discussion...

First off, I have decided the new favorite order for the complete set.

ANHESBROTJTPMAOTCROTS

It is my decision that it is all really just an exceptionally long movie. ESB just doesn't make any sense without ANH and you can't understand what the climax is until you have ROTJ, and the whole basis for the three comes from every one of the PT movies, and TPM without AOTC is just silly, and the whole thing is tied up in a pretty (albeit twisted) bow with ROTS. And I do believe they should be watched 4,5,6,1,2,3. I've tried it both ways, and maybe it's my sentimentality, but I felt so much more connected doing it that way. However, for a person who has NEVER seen ANY of the films (still can't believe those people exist in civilized society ), maybe 1-6 would be better.

As for the recent high drama regarding the nitpicking/criticism/whatever... The OT is just as bad (examined closely) as the PT... Sorry, but Harrison Ford was there for the ride, Carrie Fisher was so blasted out of her mind in the last two and Mark Hamill, although a genius in animated voice work, was never up to the acting ability needed for the role (tell me I'm not the only one who saw "The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia"). Much of the appeal for the OT was timing. It hit the theatres at a time when the largest generation of people had the largest concentration of children in history. It also hit the theatres before the world had been overrun with technology beating us over the head with a constant barrage of information at our fingertips. We had to seek out anything of value about space or even good fantasy. I mean really, the other hit movie in 1977 was "Smokey & the Bandit" for crying outloud (not that I don't own the DVD box set or anything ). 1977 was all about coming down off the "Spirit of '76" hype (did anyone else spend 4 hours standing in line to get a glimpse of the Liberty Bell Train?). It was Carter's first year in office when the whole world decided our president was a joke (hmmm... sounds familiar). "Annie" was killing 'em on Broadway with Andrea McCardle (and the Kennedy Center where I got to see it w/ Amy Carter - and every other kid in the Capitol Region ). We needed a movie to take us away from our boring existence, we needed to not care about how long the gas line was going to be on our gas day. We needed to step away from the aquanet cloud that it took to get those "Farrah" wings (especially in the humid costal region I grew up in ). If ANH had come out at any other time, I seriously doubt it would have soared the way it did.

All that said, do I like the OT any less for all of its failures/faults? HELL NO! I love it BECAUSE of those things. I love the campiness of ANH, the sarcasm and darkness and vagueries of ESB, and the all silliness as well as the hope that ROTJ had to offer. Mark Hamill can whine his way through anything he wants, and Carrie, though sober now, can slosh through whatever else in life, and Harrison Ford can continue to be the cardboard man to me for all eternity. I will still LOVE the OT.

As for the PT, I have a little bit of an edge on most people when it comes to these films. I have the ability to push away my cynical, aged and jaded mind when I watch these films and see them with the eyes of that same kid watching the OT. I got to see TPM through the eyes of my then 2 year old nephew, as he beheld with wonder and joy everything that film had to offer him. I got to see AOTC through the eyes of my then 10 year old niece, who picked up on the political stuff and asked questions about Anakin and Padme, and wondered why this stuff was all so important. For AOTC was something to think about, and that's what I got at that same age from ESB. And with ROTS, I got to watch it through the eyes of some of the kids at the shelter and my youth group. They were blown away by the drama, they were intrigued by the love story, they related to Anakin and his struggle and they each found something to hold on to from the

 

[]Eeehhhhhhxclent.[/Mr.Burns]


Youre smart.

 

wisely put about the debate zoofa, very well rounded and short,

all this makes sense about the OT being what it is and what it meant for its importance in the day and age it all came about. I however have a different story for what it meant to many little kids, not too long ago, in a town far far away;

In the far land of then soviet union the space age raved on! and as little boys in the streets played out futuristic alien wars and such, the long decomposing soviet government lifted sensorship on foreign media. In the year 1989, the trilogy was seen on all the little tvs in all of post communist countries everywhere. For years stormtroopers would battle Luke and his pals with the cutest girl always playing Leia. Every boy wanted to be either vader or Luke, I was always vader. Starwars wasnt a dream of this world to me, to us but something real something out there in space. I felt sort of threatened years later when I heard that TPM was inevitable, but with ROTS I feel the saga is truly complete but the story for all of us young inspired artists, writers and filmmakers has only begun!

 

For people who are sick of hearing people complain about Episode III--this IS the Official Episode III discussion thread. Why should everyone only have to say good and wonderful things about it? Just because we love Star Wars and something is Star Wars doesn't mean we have to bow down and worship it. Look at the televison Ewok movies for example---yeeeks! Of course ROTS isn't anywhere near that...um..crumminess. But for me at least it was a bit disapointing on a few points. Apparently I am not alone as shown in other people's posts. And since this is supposed to be a discussion thread about the movie, people have every right to discuss their feelings about the movie here. Rather than complain about people complaining, why not try to turn the tide and start to post about all the great stuff from the movie?
Here. I'll go first.

General order 66 is pretty darn ingenious. Is it an order to actually kill the jedi in particular or is it an order to turn and kill whoever happens to be leading them at the time? I imagine it is an order to kill Jedi since Palpatine wants to be rid of them more than anything.

 

Probably an order to kill Jedi. The one contrary case I can remember from the movie was the Wookies - the Clonetroopers appeared to be going around and making sure they were all dead. (Or am I misinterpreting that scene?) However, I'm not sure if the wookies were a special case (they had good relations with the Jedi?), if they rose up in armed protest over the attempt on Yoda's life, or what.

 

Why should everyone only have to say good and wonderful things about it?

You shouldnt. Obviously.
I'm gonna try to clarify this one more time.

Someone asked and "in universe" question, and people started talking about the faults of the writer.
It seemed like bashing. I dont like that. I see it more and more. It bothers me. I said so.

And BB, If you have a right to complain about SW, I have a right to complain about you... complaining about SW.


I did not ask anyone to change their opinion, or their post. I stated my displeasure with the negative attitude that I feel here more and more.

Agree, disagree, whatever. I'm done.

 

Okely dokely.

 

I think that I might've initially opened this can of worms.

T posed the "in-universe" question, and I responded, both with "in-universe" rationale as well as my opinions on what motivated that rationale externally, or "real-life". Unfortunately, I think that my (limited) discussion of the in-universe answers to the question(s) may have been lost/overshadowed by the rest of my post.


I don't see that my comments were particularly bash oriented per se, but perhaps they could be (and were) perceived that way. To-may-toe/To-mah-toe....


Apparently, my discourse was enough to highjack the thread. In that case, it would be more appropriate to continue this in another thread: perhaps the General Star Wars Discussion Thread .

We may now continue the discussion as it is relevant to EPISODE III .

I agree with AHPR's previous point to keep the topic within the paramaters of In-Universe

BB - I think Order 66 was DEFINITELY aimed at the Jedi. Now, this begs the question of Order 66 also encompassing any allies of the Jedi.

T - I've pondered the Wookiee connection as well. When the AT-RT Trooper says, "All these Wookiees are dead, too". Or, something along those lines, I'm not sure if that means that:

a) The Clones turned against the Wookiees as well as the Jedi on Kashyyk.
b) The Wookiees turned against the Clone troops after the attempt on Yoda's life.
c) Neither a nor c, those troops were simply searching for Yoda and the comment is out of context.

I'm more inclined to buy scenario A, which also leads me to believe that anyone aiding the Jedi would be guilty by association.

Aren't the Clone Troops also rounding up Utapauns after they turn on Obi Wan?

 

Aren't the Clone Troops also rounding up Utapauns after they turn on Obi Wan?

yes, they are, you see them in the background.

it is also a well known fact that the empire put the wookies into slavery. I think they were also rounding them up.

now as for the 'turning' on the troopers. that i can not answer.

 

it is also a well known fact that the empire put the wookies into slavery


That has only been established within the confines of the EU.


Otherwise, to the majority of movie-goers, who have no other exposure to the SW-universe, there is nothing upon which to base that conclusion.

 

SS-You are correct.

I did not even think about that being confined to the EU. I guess I have 'always' known that Han rescued Chewie.

I do not remember reading about it, it was just one of those things that I have always known.

 

sorry for the distraction. onward & upward.


I'm more inclined to buy scenario A, which also leads me to believe that anyone aiding the Jedi would be guilty by association.


Hmmm.... Maybe not anyone (Senator Organa), but possibly some lowly wookiees.

I've been curious about this scene as well. I agree with the options you presented, SS.
My confusion is in the timeline of the battle.
Is it even over yet?
If it's not... where does that leave the wookiees?
Could (A) the clones have turned on the wookiees BEFORE the droids were even defeated?
That doesnt seem to make sense.

Order 66 comes before the Nemoidians on Mustafar are ordered to shut down the droids.... right?


I think so. I'm trying to remember the sequence of events, and I'm not 100% sure.

 

I think the film leaves that kind of odd... When I read the novelization, the order to shut down the droids had been given before Anakin arrived at Mustafar, but I don't remember if Order 66 had been given yet (I'm still reading to make it drag out a little farther ).

 

ok all this talk about the film makes me wanna go see it

so ill bet at least 1 other fan wants to go (except josh cuz hes a noshow )

my research tells me the movies are still on in two geographically accessible places
at HR 24 and the ColoMills UA colfax

PM me if anyone wants to attend this week any weekday night (7 or 10 show)

Cmon! otherwise ill have to take my got-sick-of-your-epIII-already friends

 

wow its still at HR i think i'll go this weekend with my friend zac but i dont really know

 

RotS is apparently still playing @ Colorado Mills.

 

LOL hah yea right!


EDIT anyone up for it??

 

yup. according to moviefone.com, anyway.

 

Also at Tiffany Plaza /grumble grumble grumble grumble/

 

I believe it's also playing at the Elvis Cinemas around town.