~~Official Expanded Universe Discussion Thread~~ Current Topic: Backlashes against EU characters

"I have chosen to TEST this station's destructive power on your home planet of Alderaan."

"No! Alderaan is peaceful! We have no weapons! You can't..."

"You prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!"

More movie dialogue to support the fact that Alderaan was a civilian planet. Tarkin himself recognizes it as such by not classifying it as a military target with that statement.

Now, watching the film again, I will concede that I was wrong about the gunners being in the same room, and I apologize for that. However, the fact that they were firing at a planet should have been blatantly obvious, meaning that they were supporting the deaths of millions of lives, whether is be a military planet or not.

Tarkin says that the destruction of Alderaan is a DEMONSTRATION of its power! I'm sorry, but killing millions, perhaps billions of innocent civillians as a demonstration of power is not justified.

Even with Rebel supporters on Alderaan, I do not see how you can say that the entire planet therefore deserves the fate it receives. Just because a few terrorists come from the middle east, does that mean we should drop atomic bombs on the entire region?

 

I am not justifying anything, I am pointing out the reasons why they exist and who caused them to exist. Palpatine is also not the ultimate cause, the dissent was already there he just provoked it into action. It would have started anyway regardless whether he pulled the switch to open the flood gates of the dam.

I pointed out that the reason these things happened to the galaxy is because of the rebellions. If they had not rebelled, things would most likely have been better off for everyone. And Yubs, we don't know if the Wookiees or Mon Calamari joined the Confederation later on or not. We have barely begun to scratch the surface of the Clone Wars. But so far, most of which has happened to the aliens by the Empire can be traced back to the Clone Wars and the Confederation.

It is like saying that the Russians would not hate the Germans after all they had done to the Russians in World War II.

Slavery and oppression existed because Humans and other near-huamn species have come to hate aliens and droids during the Clone Wars. The Rebellion were fighting against something which their predecessors had started. And when the Rebel Alliance started, the Empire tried to put a stop to it before it could burn into a raging inferno. The more the rebellion fought, the tougher things got for everybody else.

Yes there was greed and corruption among the officers and Moffs, but every government including our own has a degree of corruption in it. The Imperial Senate was also corrupted and passed several of those laws which were enforced on the aliens. The very same Imperial Senate which Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, Leia Organa, Bail Organa, and many other Senators who founded the rebellion, created the Empire and the laws which oppressed the aliens. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Now, I ask you, why are these Senators rebelling to begin with? Is it really because they feel sympathetic towards the aliens which they helped oppress? Or is it because they knew the power which they held had been gradually disappearing over the years? The Emperor disbanned the Senate because it had rebels in it and exploiting the Senate's power to cause problems elsewhere in the Empire.

 

Why would any government ned a device capable of destroying whole worlds? An Impstar Deuce can BBQ a city of two with a Base Delta Zero attack and and probably acheive similar ends as using the Death Star. The Death Star, along with the Eye of Palpatine, the Second, even larger and more powerful Death Star, and the Galaxy Gun were weapons used to terrorize and subjugate trillions of beings. That does not make the Galatic Empire a legitimate government, it makes them a totalitarian government which restricts the rights of the people it rules abitrarily.

The Alliance to Restore the Republic (the full title of what the Empire called 'the Rebellion') sought to reinstitute the demoractic government of the old Galatic Republic, and let all sentient beings have a voice and a vote. However, in movements, you get zealots who feel the means justify the ends. What separates the Alliance from the Empire is that the Empire was headed by zealots who craved power and dominion over people. The Alliance had theirs, Bria Tharen comes to mind. But Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, Ackbar, even Garm Bel Iblis sought to restore freedom and did not stoop to using terroristic acts like Tarkin or Palpatine.

edit: Eye kan speel

 

Synecdoche is a very useful poetic device... but it has NO application in the real world. (for those who don't know: Synecdoche is the use of a part for the whole, or the whole for a part) In other words... you're generalizing in places wherein you can't generalize.

I'm going to assume that you've watched either TPM or AotC. Thus you've seen the size of the Senate. So, a handful of those (the part) happen to also be rebels. Does that make the Senate (the whole) part of the Rebellion? Only if, as I said in my earlier post, Timothy McVeigh makes every American a terrorist. A handful of people do not dictate the entire senate without a LOT of help, help which they didn't have.

And... you think Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and Garm bel Iblis created the Empire?? Wrong. That was Palpatine. Some Senators helped him, sure, but does that mean every Senator did? Of course not. They have minds of their own.

Some Senators rebelled because many were being oppressed, and even as Senators, they were powerless to help otherwise. They happened to have a conscience, and used it to help people. Is that something to criticize?

 

That does not make the Galatic Empire a legitimate government, it makes them a totalitarian government which restricts the rights of the people it rules abitrarily.

The Empire is a legitimate government regardless what type of government it is. There was no overthrow of the Republic. The Senate transformed the Republic into the Empire and gave Palpatine the powers he needed to declare himself Emperor. The Empire was created legally through the Republics own loophole system, just like the Nazi Government was created in Germany by Hitler. Just like the Roman Empire was created out of the Roman Republic. The system gave up everything to transform into something different.

The New Republic, on the other hand, is an illegitmate bureaucracy just like the previous government it tried to model itself after. The Senators wanted to bring back a corrupt bureaucratic system and they got it through terrorizing the Empire, both civilian and military. They raided convoys, they raided space stations, they destroyed targets that had civilians in them or around them. They didn't care what happened to everybody else so long as they got what they wanted in the end.

And after the Empire was ousted from Coruscant for the last time, the New Republic hounded the remnants and forced loyal Imperial worlds to switch sides or else. The New Republic also allowed Kyp Durron to kriffin live after he bloody destroyed an entire star system. He terrorized an entire world to give up his brother and destroyed them because he believed they weren't telling the truth that they were getting him or didnt know where he was.

Luke Skywalker murdered thousands of people on Coruscant when he destroyed Prince Xizor's castle. Did he have to throw a live thermal detonator down the shaft and into the foundations? No he didn't, but he did it anyway to destroy Black Sun, a civilian organization.

The Rebellion and its creation, the New Republic, is no better than what they fought. But at least the Empire had brought order and peace to a galaxy that had been torn by war. What did the Rebellion/New Republic bring after they ousted the Empire? More war, more war, more war, and more war. It couldn't even defend the galaxy when the Yuuzhan Vong invaded because it was so busy argueing amongst themselves and playing power games that they were powerless to do anything.

 

For all the gunners knew, they were attacking an asteroid.


By a military target, Tarkin ment a target with the military, but alderaan suppluied the rebelion with countles resources.

The Mon Calamari plaied a large role in the battle of Kamino on the side of the confederacy

 

One, Black Sun would more properly be called a criminal organization than anything else. No, they weren't an official military, but they're on the level of, say, al Qaeda - not military, but still a much more legitimate target than a disarmed planet of civilians.

Two, giving Palpatine emergency powers is a far cry from declaring him Emperor. The Senate did give him emergency powers in an emergency (imagine that!) but he declared himself Emperor, not the Senate.

EDIT:

Using the Death Star against an asteroid is big-time overkill.

Alderaan supplied the Empire with resources, too. So what?

EDIT2:

Forgot to mention - Palpatine also promised (if you don't remember, watch AotC again) to LAY DOWN HIS POWERS once the crisis was over. Which, by the way, he didn't, he just took more power.

 

Um Mitth, wasn't it Leia who pitched the detonator down the shaft?

The Alliance is no better than the Empire? How many planets did the Alliance destroy? Where are the acts the Alliance committed that even remotely compare to Topwara, The Ghorman Massacare, Caamas, Firrerro. And that's not even going back to Alderaan.

 

One, Black Sun would more properly be called a criminal organization than anything else. No, they weren't an official military, but they're on the level of, say, al Qaeda - not military, but still a much more legitimate target than a disarmed planet of civilians.

Fine, a criminal civilian organization. Which Skywalker did terrorized to get what he wanted before dropping the bomb on them which according to the definition way above, is considered terrorism. Skywalker and his gang are terrorists. And if the Rebellion allows such people to fight for them, then they condone their actions which makes the organization terrorists as well.

Two, giving Palpatine emergency powers is a far cry from declaring him Emperor. The Senate did give him emergency powers in an emergency (imagine that!) but he declared himself Emperor, not the Senate.

And we do not know the rest of that story except that the Senate did not protest, not even when they became the Imperial Senate. I wonder why? Maybe because somehow, somewhere, the Senate and the rest of the galaxy saw that declaration legal? Maybe it was given to Palpatine like it was given to the Roman Emperor Augustus. We won't know until Episode 3, so until then I'll put that point on the back burner.

 

And we do not know the rest of that story except that the Senate did not protest, not even when they became the Imperial Senate. I wonder why? Maybe because somehow, somewhere, the Senate and the rest of the galaxy saw that declaration legal? Maybe it was given to Palpatine like it was given to the Roman Emperor Augustus. We won't know until Episode 3, so until then I'll put that point on the back burner.


Or maybe because if they disagreed, they'd disappear, or be charged with treason?

But as you say, let's leave that point.

 

So, do you think that anybody that kills a member of al Qaeda should be barred from the American military because it would make them terrorists? Whoops, there goes quite a number of our armed forces.


Logically, when Palpatine declared himself Emperor, the Senate wouldn't have the power to disagree. Or, more specifically, if they tried to, they'd be killed.

 

No, what Leia did in dropping the thermal detonator was cover their escape from wrongful confinement. They weren't doing it for the express purpose of terrorizing, they were doing it to get away.

 

Regardless, according to the definition the use of violence against civilian targets to obtain a goal is terrorisim. What she, he, they did is terrorism to the Nth degree.

 

Personally, I see their actions as both terrorism and freedom fights. *shrugs* Why does it always have to be one or the other? Well, the Empire might have used its power to make civillians suffer, but the Rebellion use their guerilla tactics to stop the Empire but sometimes hurt the civillians as well.

War is a messy business. Nothing is right about it, and I'm not one to believe in the ends justify the means because innocent people still get hurt and die. There is just no fine line here. People did what they thought was right and kudos to them if other people liked what they got in the end.

 

Before going to bed, I would like to take a moment to thank you all for adding your input. Keep at it!

For my own personal bit, I'm oging to say that the Rebels are freedom fighters. The Rebels, although they are trying to take down the ruling party, are still doing the right thing. The Empire is made of corrupt actions and thoughts, making the Empire an evil blemish that needs to be wiped out. Yes, the Rebels did kill innocents, but they didn't go out of their way to do so. They also focused on military bases, ships, ect, unlike the Empire.

 

Palpatine is also not the ultimate cause, the dissent was already there he just provoked it into action. It would have started anyway regardless whether he pulled the switch to open the flood gates of the dam.

The corruption and dissent that we saw in The Phantom Menace was caused by Palpatine as well. He was behind the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo, which caused Finis Valorum to be voted out of office, and allowed Palpatine to be elected Supreme Chancellor. Once in this position, Palpatine was able to control the Senate from the top spot, allowing him to control events as he sees fit.

Additionally, he was playing the role of the leader of the Separatists, as Darth Sidious. As Darth Sidious, he was controlling the very opposition the Republic faced; giving them support and leading them towards a position where they could wage war against the Republic. Without the aid of Palpatine (Sidious), those wishing to leave the corruption of the Republic likely would not have organized and attacked.

It is impossible to defend someone who was playing both sides like that. Palpatine really sparked the fuse of dissent in the Republic, while leading the Republic at the same time. Everything that we saw in Attack of the Clones was orchestrated by him. I also fail to see how you can generalize that the "majority" of the Separatists were non-humans, when the majority of the Republic was also non-human.

There were Senators from every planet in the galaxy, and just from watching the Senate scenes, it is quite clear that the majority of the Republic is made up of those who are not of the human species, and even once the Separatists begin gaining power, this holds true. If any one is to blame for the actions of the Separatists, it is Palpatine--not any non-human species you can come up with.

I pointed out that the reason these things happened to the galaxy is because of the rebellions. If they had not rebelled, things would most likely have been better off for everyone.

Would they? I'm looking at that statement and wondering you watched the films I did, because in The Phantom Menace, I fail to see how Naboo would have benefitted by not rebelling against the Trade Federation and the Republic. They were being oppressed and killed by the Trade Federation, and had they sat back and let things run their course, the Trade Federation would have won: and taken countless innocent lives with them.

The invasion was illegal, this much is clear from the films. Queen Amidala and the Naboo were attempting to save the lives of not only themselves but of the innocent civilians who lived on Naboo. Had the Trade Federation been allowed to walk all over them, the results would not be favorable in the eyes of those who understand the concept of ethics.

And Yubs, we don't know if the Wookiees or Mon Calamari joined the Confederation later on or not. We have barely begun to scratch the surface of the Clone Wars. But so far, most of which has happened to the aliens by the Empire can be traced back to the Clone Wars and the Confederation.

And yet at the time of the Clone Wars, just as many non-humans are serving the Republic as they are the Separatists. Watch the scenes in Attack of the Clones again where Palpatine's closest supporters are with him: hardly a human in sight. If you take the angle of "the aliens are to blame," it doesn't work, because the Separatists can put just as much blame on the non-human supporters of the Republic as the Republic can put on the non-human supporters of the Separatists.

Again, I use the example of the Middle East situation. By your reasoning, we should automatically hate every person of Middle-Eastern descent, whether they be millitary affiliated or an innocent civilian or a terrorist. You are saying that the entirety of a species should take the blame for the actions of a few members of that species: which is incredibly wrong. Any murders "just because" someone belongs to a certain species (just the same as race in our world) should and would be considere

 

Looking back, I've gone off topic with points that don't have anything to do with with the current topic. Heck I don't even remember where I was going with those anyway so... tosses them out the window

The Empire is not on the spotlight here anyway, the Rebellion is. We know the Empire terrorizes, we know the Empire oppresses, that is not in question here. What is in question, is the Rebellion a terrorist organization or a freedom fighting organization?

And Ousley, Black Sun is still a civilian organization regardless what it does. It consists of civilians and as you pointed out is not a military organization. If not military, than what other could it be? Terrorists you say? Fine, let's call Black Sun a bunch of criminal terrorists. Do recall that the Rebellion wanted to make a deal with these criminal terrorists for their cause against the Empire. Does not making deals with a terrorist group for your cause also define you as a terrorist?

Also, you forget about all the people around the building when it collapsed. I don't think all those Coruscantis who were crushed underneath the rubble were members of Black Sun, do you? If Leia and co cant be defined as terrorists to you through that, then they are careless murderers concerned about their own well-being who were also willing to work with terrorists to further their cause. All this coming from a group who claims to be fighting for freedom?

 

YubYub...
"We have a regime that admits it is ruling by fear. We have a government that destroys planets. We have a leader who is a bloody Dark Lord of the Sith. This climate of tyranny and oppression isn't good for the galaxy. Sure, the Republic wasn't perfect, but order imposed by terror is even less ideal."

All points conceded. However, in the Rebel Alliance, we have a leadership who was willing to resort to outright assassination of heads of state. The entire Endor plan centered around a single target of opportunity - the Emperor himself.

No attempt to bring him to trial. No justice. Merely a starfighter attack meant to utterly wipe him off the face of the galaxy.

Now, for all of this talk of the evils of the Empire, the Rebellion certainly didn't take the high road in the Galactic Civil War.

And their depravity is further magnified after the formation of the New Republic (same people, different name), with its rampant nepotism and malfeasance, but I suppose that's an entirely different discussion.

 

Unfortunately the Empire is a legitimate form of government. The senate made a legal decision to grant Palpatine emergency powers. At this current stage (i.e. without the hindsight that will be provided by episode 3), we can not state whether Palpatine keeping these powers is considered legal in the GFFA.

Now the military actions of an organisation whose sole purpose is the destruction of this legitimate government can be nothing other than terrorism, no? The rebellion targets civilians (Face was going to be assassinated as a boyhood actor, was he not?) as well as military targets. The rebellion, after toppling the Imperial government goes on to form an illegitimate government that has poor control over its military, (Thyferra). Not only has this but it employed criminals (Vorru) to police its Capital world!

Now we come to a big however. The films tell us that the Empire is evil. The rebellion is good. The scrolling text tells us that the rebellion are freedom fighters. This I must accept because I believe it to be in the spirit of the films.

And lets us not forget the Ewok argument. How could a group of cold hearted terrorists make friends with our cute furry friends? Exactly.

From a purely cold point of view the rebellion are terrorists, (And the Empire has funky white armour). However the spirit of the films dictates, to me, that the rebellion is bunch of lovey dovey freedom fighters, with cute furry allies.

 

Good God! The Alliance did not normally condone assassination.

Read Darksaber to see this. There is a flashback scence in it between Mon Mothma, Ackbar, and Madine. Mothma is horrified by the prospect of assassination, but she goes along with it ONLY because it is their last resort.

How could the Rebels bring Palpatine to trial? It would of been impossible. They HAD to take him out, plain and simple.

Listen, I am not saying that the Rebel Alliance was all sugar and spice and everything nice.

But, look at the facts. The Alliance never, ever approached the level of evil, violence, and desruction that the Galactic Empire did. Countless worlds were ravaged, enslaved, or outright destroyed by the GE.

I find it amusing when people try to defend the actions of Palpatine's Empire. Note that I distinguish it from the far superior Remnant of Pellaeon.

The Empire itself was evil. What it stood for was evil. Its leader was evil.

Yet, many of its people were not. And that is the important thing to remember. There were many good Imperials, and many that truly thought they were doing good.

--Adm. Nick

 

Terrorist. The most effective system of goverment the galaxy has ever seen was attacked and brought down by sneak attacks. They bombed buildings and raided ships, plus the organizations backing them were usally very courupt. Without them 90% of the "horrific" acts done by the Empire would never had needed to take place. They brought it apon themselves.

 

OK. Please note that I've not read all EU, so some of my arguments might not be perfectly right, I'm sorry about that.
First: War itself is the evil side. Because on both sides, people die, and people grieve for those who died (said that too in Thrawn thread, I know).
The Empire was a legal government, the Rebels are not freedom fighters, nor terrorists, nor heros.
Yes, the Empire had slaves, but it was Palpatine who hated non-humans so much (maybe a couple of other Imperials too, I don't know), and you can't say the whole Empire is bad, just because a small fraction promotes slavery. The Rebels seemed to bring peace back in the galaxy, but did they? Did they really? Is the New Republic the perfect example of a peacefull, calm, non-chaotic government?
The Rebels also killed people, they killed innocent people who were just doing their job: by destroying the Death Star, they killed innocent people too! Because the order to destroy Alderaan came from Tarkin (or Palpatine?), not from everybody else on board.
The Rebels are not better than the Empire: as I said, in war, there is no winner, only losers.
And, as far as I know (again: didn't read all the EU books), the Empire was perfectly legal, and cleaned up the mess the Old Republic left. Most planets under Imperial command did have peace and freedom, because not all Moffs, Grand Moffs etc were like Tarkin or Palpatine.
The Rebels created a bigger mess now, it's not better than the Old Republic or the Empire.
Rebels are no terrorists, nor freedom fighters, they're fools. Naive (sp?), because they should have known just killing the Emperor (without giving him a fair chance for justice, I thought that even the worst criminals have the right to defend themselves first..by Republic law???) wouldn't make the galaxy a better place to live in. You can't rule such an enormous galaxy without a firm guidance (note: this doesn't mean you have to "rule by fear",or have a bad dictator), because with all those different species, who all have different points of view, there will never be one Republic. It just doesn't work, and the Rebels don't realize that.
Things were better under the Empire (allthough slavery is wrong, mind you, but if someone like Thrawn or Pellaeon had been Emperor).
My final conclusion: Rebels are naive fools, who need to reconsider their actions. They killed innocent people, killed people without giving them a fair chance to defend themselves (as in court or something, my English is bad). In other words: they're forgetting their own laws. They were never freedom fighters, they just had extreme luck, and they can't rule a galaxy. Chaos. (didn't read the NJO though)

edit: I'd like to say that even though I'm 100% Imperial: I think the whole Alderaan thing was a stupid idea, giving the Rebels a legal reason to fight the Empire. Superweapons are usually not good.

 

NP edit: This thread was created in order to debate and discuss various topics relating to the GFFA. Please refrain from posting here unless you are going to contribute to the discussion.

 

[image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire01.jpg] [image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire02.jpg]

[image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire03.jpg] [image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire04.jpg]

[image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire05.jpg] [image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire06.jpg]

[image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire07.jpg] [image=http://aesop.thrillinghill.com/ousley/images/empire08.jpg]

 

I find it amusing that people try to make the Empire out to be some good government.

Hell, as the poster before me has just shown by posting pics from the opening crawl, George Lucas himself has made it clear that the Empire is, in fact, evil.

I am honestly shocked that people actually try to make the Rebel Alliance out to be terroists or idiots.

They were freedom fighters. They sacrificed much to liberate the galaxt from the Empire's tyranny.

Furthermore, it is "G" canon, as Val would say. In other words, the fact that the Empire is evil and the Rebellion good come straight from the "Maker" himself.

--Adm. Nick