~~Official Expanded Universe Discussion Thread~~ Current Topic: Backlashes against EU characters

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by BultarSwan, Aug 2, 2004.

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  1. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    Bah, you suck, Thok. I was just about to reply to the Tenel Ka destiny question! Oh well.

    A government as large as the Old Republic encompassing so many species, should it have been done in the first place? A million systems, should they have been ruled from one planet? Should the republic been broken up into regions?

    I think the Republic should have been more of a loose federation. For example, one thing that comes to mind is if Planet A got attacked by Planet B, the Republic should be able to intervene. Gov'ments are hard to run no matter what kind, what size, or whatever. The Republic might've been better off into regions that in turn report to the Senate and all.
  2. Lank_Pavail Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 7
    I too believe that the Republic was perhaps too large to adequately function. Rampant corruption all the way up to the Chancellor's office and the machinations of a Sith Lord certainly didn't help matters any. :p

    Government isn't my strong suit, but a republic of thousands of systems seems a very unwieldy thing, especially without a standing army/navy.
  3. JediHobbit Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 5
    I think the lack of a standing military force to police the Republic is where they really screwed up. you cannot put all your trust in diplomacy, but neither can you put all your trust into military force, which is where I believe the Empire was at fault. A good government needs a good balance bewteen the two.
  4. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    No. The Empire was not at fault with a strong military force--in fact it is what kept systems from fighting old feuds, etc. Most of the Empire's corruption came from the politicians, not the military. The politicians dictate policy and they use the military to get what they want when people refuse it. If you think about it, most of the power was still in the politicians hands. The military was controlled by the Moffs and Grand Moffs--where most of the corruption lay. And policy dictated that the military had to obey the Moffs and Grand Moffs.
  5. Thok Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 6
    So your saying, kill the moffs? win the war?
  6. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    Uh no.

    I'm saying a large military was not the Empire's problem. The greedy, corrupt politicians were. They made policies that pissed off the populace and caused them to rebel which fell to the military to quell at the orders of the Moffs and Grand Moffs. The military was merely a tool. Killing the Moffs won't do anything but cause more violence. Replacing the moffs with uncorrupted people and giving the populace some of what they want and you'll get rid of rebellion.
  7. JediHobbit Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 5
    my point was that the Empire relied too much upon military force and did not put enough stock in diplomacy, which is why so many people were unhappy and rebeled.
  8. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    I believe the Old Republic was too large. A million star systems ruled from one planet?

  9. Fire_Light Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 5
    *Hijacks thread* :p

    Okay, I have a topic for debate.

    There are a number of EU characters with strong fan-followings, such as Mara, Corran, Kyp, Jacen and Jaina. However, it seems that most of these EU-only characters also have a fair amount of detractors.

    Is it just inevitable that when a non-movie character gets a lot of exposure there is going to be a strong backlash against that character?
  10. Fire_Light Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 5
  11. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2003
    star 7
    Well, guess my topic on governmental structure wasn't gripping enough...

    There are some who believe that the movies are almost sacrosant(sp), and should be held above the novels. As someone who was reading the novels before even watching all three movies, it seems odd to do that.

  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Fire_Light...
    "Is it just inevitable that when a non-movie character gets a lot of exposure there is going to be a strong backlash against that character?"

    No. We EU fans are reasonable people. It's when they start doing utterly absurd things like making Mara Jade a Jedi (to use an example), that it makes one go, "huh, what the hell are you people doing to the EU."
  13. JediHobbit Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 5
    thanks for the insider's perspective Genghis :p

    but I don't think that it's totally inevitable for a popular EU-only character to get backlash like that, at least not on their own. I think the problem lies in how authors use/portray them. And the more use a character gets, the more likely it is that they will end up doing something that the fans don't like.

    But one can make the argument that Wes and Hobbie, while not entirely EU characters, are 95% EU characters, and everybody loves them. I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about their characters. I attribute that to the fact that they are consistant in the roles they play, not uber-pilots able to take out whole squadrons of enemy fighters on their own, just average guys that happen to be really good at what they do, and just happen to make us laugh along the way. I'm sure there are plenty of other characters that that argument can be made for.
  14. Katana_Geldar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2003
    star 8
    IMO it depends on the character, someone like Lord Nyax gets a lot of flack as opposed to Corran Horn.

  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Oh, Corran gets his flack. Mainly for being Stackpole's "Garry Stu."

    I think you'll find that most of the problems people tend to have center around lapses of reasonable judgement.

    Lord Nyax - a lightsaber-sprouting Frankenstein - defines a lapse of reasonable judgement.

    But, then so does Luke marrying someone like Mara Jade (to merely use another example).

    I think it's when they destroy the suspension of disbelief for the universe that the problems occur.

    Okay, a mystical energy field that allows lightning to shoot from fingertips? Sure, no problem.

    Blobstacle racing? Try again.

    I don't think you get a "backlash" just from poor judgement alone, though.

    I think what kicks any sort of larger fan backlash is when you add in the pandering angle. Pandering to select groups, at everyone else's expense. Mara and Corran top that list. I like Corran, but really, Ruin was just completely rock bottom in terms of the worst of all of this - Garry Stu-ism, fan pandering, etc.
  16. NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 6
    I also think it has a lot to do with personal opinion. There are plenty of characters that some people just can't stand (take Jacen Solo, for example) and other people adore. The detractors might be able to deal with him as long as he has a small role. But once authors start writing entire books around one or two characters, those characters can no longer be ignored. So of course, the more exposure they get, the more vocal their detractors will get.

    I wish Jacen wasn't the first example that came to mind. :_| Poor kid, he gets too much hate.
  17. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    It's good for him, being the budding Sith also-ran that he is.
  18. Pellaeon-Firke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 5
    Pretty much every character gets backlash, EU or no. The previously used Hobbie example--people over in CT really don't like him.

    And Jacen deserves what he's gotten, but ask the Imperial Ewok to elaborate for me if you disagree here.

    Most EU characters deserve some amount of dislike (not Kyle Katarn or HK-47 though :p ), so it's not too bad.
  19. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    Jaina and Mara easily deserve the most dislike, IMO.

  20. Lank_Pavail Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 7
    Well, Mara Jade and Corra Horn spring to mind as they are two of the biggest EU only characters in the post RotJ EU. They get a lot fo flak for a variety of reasons, like Geghis's Gary Stu/Mary Sue thing, or dislike of the character's actions (or lack thereof). Then we have those that dislike, or even out and out hate the EU characters because they are EU.

    SOme of the best SW related fun I had was listening to an RL aqquaintance of mind rail on and on about how bad the EU is, that nothing good came from it. He then started talking about the prequels, and how cool Darth Maul's dual bladed sabre was or how hot Aalya Secura was. Took the wind out of his sales when I showed him they were both EU creations first. [face_devil]
  21. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    lol@Lank, awesome. It can be quite amusing to lay the smack down on such people like that.
  22. Ackyuna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2004
    star 2
    Thrawn. He was really awesome, but was killed off really cheaply. It was just terrible.
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