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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

~~Official Expanded Universe Discussion Thread~~ Current Topic: Backlashes against EU characters

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by BultarSwan, Aug 2, 2004.

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  1. Stormtrooper_Shrink

    Stormtrooper_Shrink Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2004
    I've been brought up on the principle that the aims do not justify the means. The Rebellion may, and did, have a good and just ideal in mind when they attacked the Empire, but they did it in a way that cost the lives of several innocents. Death Star, anyone?

    Look at the Rebellion from the Empire's point of view. A small faction that is uprising - rebelling, in a word - against them. It's a threat. Of course they're going to employ all means possible to eliminate them.

    I'm not justifying Palpatine's actions, or those of his time. Palpatine was evil, and his aims were evil. Case closed on him. But the concept of the Empire was just.

    I have a very odd feeling that I slipped way off everyone's points. :p

    I respect everyone else's opinions, of course. Just IMHO, the Empire wasn't nearly as evil as it appears to be.
     
  2. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    The Death Star was a military battle station, Stormtrooper_Shrink. Exactly how many civilians were on board that thing?

    And as for the shield generator on Endor...again, I can't think of any reason for civilians to be there.

    And the reduction of Toprawa to stone-age level was a sanctioned thing.

    And ho0w do we know that the corruption of the prequel era was inevitable? Remember, the Clone Wars were orchestrated by Palpatine. (Speculation ahead) The Old Republic seemed pretty stable until the Sith went underground. Perhaps most of that corruption was of the Dark Side...
     
  3. Pelly-Welly

    Pelly-Welly Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2004
    Exactly how many civilians were on board that thing?
    We're talking about normal, innocent Imperials who had nothing to do with the Death Star but were just unlucky to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll be honest: Tarkin got what he deserved, true.
    But how about the technicians, stormtroopers just assigned to serve on the Death Star for a while, officers who were also just ordered to work there, and all those other people who were just following orders for what they believed in. They were not evil, they were just hoping for a better future. (Again, I'll be honest: yes, some people are forced to work for the Empire, but there were enough volunteers still)


    And as for the shield generator on Endor...again, I can't think of any reason for civilians to be there.
    They were just doing their job. (see above) For Rebels, it were people doing their job for an evil government. But, come on, these people were just working, they might have had wives and children at home, waiting for them. And they were killed, without a fair chance for justice. I can understand it though, after all, the Rebels wanted to make an end to the Empire, but killing innocent people is always wrong, no matter how "noble" your goal may be. The Rebels were just as wrong as the Imperials, there's no doubt about that.
    That's why I don't see the Rebels as freedom fighters, they had absolutely no problem killing innocent people ,they had no problems with killing people without a proper chance for them to defend themselves in something like court. The Rebels claim they're "good", but in war, there's absolutely no good side, except when one side is not killing innocent people of the other side.
    Because I thought there was freedom of choosing the government you want to "serve" (I can't remember the proper English word to use, my excuses), and if people choose to work for the Empire, and then get placed to, say, the shield generator...is it then fair to just kill them? Just because they are doing their job? I can't see how that would be fair: the Rebels were killing innocent people (so were the Imperials, true). That's war.
    If the Rebels would have followed their (future) laws, they would have given the Imperials a chance to defend themselves in court, before killing them. They didn't.
     
  4. Serapindal

    Serapindal Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2004
    There were a lot of civilians on the death star!
    The crew of the first Death Star design was 27,048 officers; 774,576 crewers; 378,576 support and maintenance crewers; 400,000 support droids; and 25,000 stormtroopers. 1,153,142 civilians dead just doing their job! (774,576+378,576)
     
  5. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Who said they were civilians?

    Most Naval vessels and stations are crewed by officers and enlisted crew, not civilian contracted workers.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  6. Pelly-Welly

    Pelly-Welly Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2004
    But they were innocent nevertheless.
     
  7. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    They were crewing a giant weapon. Furthermore, they were military personel, with the all the risks involved.
     
  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The Technical Journal of the Imperial Forces v2.0 states that hundreds of thousands of civilians were employed in the Death Star for routine tasks, maintenence, and the manning of recreational facilities on the station.

    It is easy to liken the Death Star to a pure military vessel, but one must remember that we have nothing of this scale on Earth. The impracticality of having enlisted personnel undergoing duties better suited for normal civilians is apalling.




    Now, I don't feel like reading the entire thread, so I'll just jump in right here.

    [hr]

    In any case, the Rebel Alliance and the New REpublic that followed it have indeed much to answer for.

    First and foremost, the Rebellion creates anarchy. They destroy a governmental system that has been in place since time immemorial--namely 25,000 years. The socio-economic consequences are vast and nearly incomprehensible. Consider that entire [i]worlds[/i] will have had their livilihoods destroyed by this reckless movement.

    Secondly, they replace order and law with mob rule and indecisiveness. Another name for the Rebellion is the 'Alliance to Restore the Republic'. Curiously, rather than restore it, they have destroyed its legitimate successor and merely replaced it with something else. After having done that, they have established a governmental system that does not do the Old Republic justice--but created one far more inefficient. Many Imperials see the Old Republic as something good, but something that needed improvement. The NEW Republic that the Rebellion created on the other hand is a government that does not serve her people well.

    Addionally, I recall seeing the Ackbar quote from the X-wing Series. Let us use another, shall we?(or a paraphrase, rather).

    Following Thrawn's defeat, the Rebellion needed another enemy so that it could undergo more of is conquests. Unfortunately, all the major warlord powers were at peace with the Rebellion, and were fairly ruling their dominions (so was the Empire, but that was a war, so the Rebellion felt herself justified in attacking her). The Rebellion thus manufactured evidence and trumped up false charges (admittedly, too!) in order to justify war against the Warlord Krennel.

    The Rebellion is clearly and expansionistic power that will not tolerate [i]any[/i] government as a significant power, but its own. Notice that peace with the Empire was not allowed until the Empire was nothing worth speaking of.

    The Empire is forced to attack traitors, as any power would be, (save for the destruction of Alderaan, which was not condoned by the Emperor or the Imperial government). In the Core Worlds, the citizens there are in an era of unprecedented prosperity--in the Mid Rim, as well. The Outer Rim, as it has resisted Imperial rule, has been occupied militarily and thus cannot prosper until it has been pacified. Law and order still reign, however. It is important for me to point out that the Empire does not rule by martial law--for she hardly has the forces necessary to garrison the entire galaxy. Rather, only the parts of the galaxy that the BOOKS are written in are fully garrisoned (e.g. the OR). There is a suprising lack of books written in the Core or Mid Rim during the Imperial era--yet the few that are written point out the opulence and sheer prosperity of those regions.

    Rebellion's conduct is [i]hardly[/i] exemplary, however. The Rebellion attacks convoys to disrupt and destroy the livilihoods of those living in the Empire. They seek to disrupt their lives and engage in a sort of perpetual siege warfare. If the Empire uses the legitimate policy of threat (which, after all, is what any justice-bound nation uses... the [i]threat[/i] of punishment stops crimes from happening), the Rebellion uses the illegitimate policy of terrorism to bring Imperial citizens to their knees.

    The Rebellion seeks to place a corrupt senate in power, filled with personal interests. That is the crux of the dilemma... the Rebellion [i]knows[/i] that as far as the people are concerned, the Empire is far better for
     
  9. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Palpatine did not bring "order" to the galaxy through any honorable means. He used his powers, both political and Sith, to control everything.

    How did he bring order? Lets look at the list.

    1. Military dominance? Check.
    2. Whole destruction of worlds? Check.
    3. Opression of non human peoples? Check.
    4. Abolishing the Senate? Check.

    As to the state of mind of the Imperial citzens, recall that Wedge's Gamble shows that Palpatine regularly changed the history books to suit his version of history.

    I liken the Imperial citizenry and military to the German people during WWII. Most of them had no idea of the evils of Adolf Hitler. After the war, most were appalled and shocked by what they found out.

    Here is my final say in this debate.

    The Alliance to Restore the Republic, aka Rebel Alliance, was not evil. Its motives were pure and its leaders committed to a free galaxy, one which did not have to fear the might and pure evil of Palpatine.

    Were all Rebels perfect? No, not by any means. Did the committ any atrocities? Perhaps, but none, and I REPEAT none on the level of the Empire.

    Were they freedom fighters? Yes.

    Anyone who tries to demonize the Rebel Alliance has totally missed what Star Wars is about. Lucas has made it clear. These freedom fighters fought for the galaxies betterment.

    If you can't see that, you are blind to the true hope that is a central theme in Star Wars.

    EDIT:

    I have decided that it is impossible for either side to change the others mind. I suppose I will have to live with the fact that there are some that love the Empire. Just like they will have to live with people like me who love the Rebellion. :)

    Pax. O:)

    --Adm. Nick
     
  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Palpatine did not bring "order" to the galaxy through any honorable means. He used his powers, both political and Sith, to control everything.


    Let us dispense with the idealism. He used his power to bring order, as you have said. Tell me, is it better to use your power for the good of all or is it better to hoard it and not use it? The Rebellion, with all its power, never once thought to use what it had to help people in need.

    The Empire had always used her power to help her citizens. As Admiral Rogriss points out in Starfighters of Adumar, Imperial ships routinely went to frontier worlds to administer modern medicine and economic aid to those in need. As shown in TIE Fighter, Imperial forces brought to an end the Civil War between the Ripoblus and Dimok... a war that had went on for centuries and had caused much bloodshed. The Empire gained nothing in either case, yet she insisted on helping.

    1. Military dominance? Check.
    2. Whole destruction of worlds? Check.
    3. Opression of non human peoples? Check.
    4. Abolishing the Senate? Check.


    1. So did the Rebellion--it was a military movement which engaged in warfare to accomplish its ends.
    2. Only a single world was destroyed, via an illegal action by Grand Moff Tarkin. This action was expressly forbidden by Lord Vader and was undertaken without any authorization from the Emperor.
    3. The Empire does not 'oppress'. The Empire merely gave more rights to the indigenous population of each world, and since the Core Worlds were primarily human, then a pro-human view was taken. I might remind you that this view was taken because of popular sentiment, not a whim. Indeed, the Emperor's own views on this were shaped by that and the upbringing that he was given on Naboo.
    4. The Senate was not abolished. It was merely suspended for the duration of the emergency so that effective suppression of the Rebellion could be undertaken. Though this is an 'Infinities' source and thus non-canonical, Infitinies A New Hope shows that *if* the Empire had triumphed, the Imperial Senate was to have been restored.

    As to the state of mind of the Imperial citzens, recall that Wedge's Gamble shows that Palpatine regularly changed the history books to suit his version of history.


    This version of history was written by Ysanne Isard, the foul demoness of Intelligence. She wrote it to deceive the masses about what had happened at Endor. I do not support Isard in any way, shape, or form. She is a murderous tyrant.

    I liken the Imperial citizenry and military to the German people during WWII. Most of them had no idea of the evils of Adolf Hitler. After the war, most were appalled and shocked by what they found out.


    Most of the Germans knew precisely what was going on. They chose to ignore it and move on with their lives. It is difficult to hide the max exodus of entire groups of people and their disappearance. Try hiding a ghetto in the middle of your city. They knew.

    The Imperial citizenry has not been deceived. They are quite aware of what is going on.

    The Alliance to Restore the Republic, aka Rebel Alliance, was not evil. Its motives were pure and its leaders committed to a free galaxy, one which did not have to fear the might and pure evil of Palpatine.


    Its leaders were part of the corrupt Senate that abused the masses. The same Senate that used the name of the people to further its own power and wealth. Surely you would not think that the Old Republic, in the last century or two of her long existence, was free?

    No one feared Palpatine's "might". He was a recluse and hardly interfered in the governing of the Empire. People feared the Hand of Justice striking them down if they committed a crime. They feared the law. The government would no longer ignore crime and corruption like the Old Republic did.

    Were all Rebels pe
     
  11. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Jello:

    Fine, fine, fine. I suppose debating is fun. :D ;)

    I will concede that there were cases where the Empire acted for good. Adm. Rogriss is the perfect example of an honorable man in the Empire. I do not doubt his claims.

    But, even you Imp fans have to concede that the Empire mistreated non- humans on a extraordinary scale.

    For example, how can you justify the conquest of Mon Calamari. Remember, the Mon Cals only rebelled after they were opressed by the Empire. ;)

    Heck, they even fought on the side of the Republic during the Clone Wars. (I know some didn't, but the world and some of its greatest leaders did, like Adm. Baraka.)

    Or what about the Rebel leaders? Do you really doubt the sincerity on the beliefs of Mothma, Leia, Ackbar, Wedge, etc etc?

    --Adm. Nick
     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Fine, fine, fine. I suppose debating is fun.


    Sure is, I'm loving this thread.

    I will concede that there were cases where the Empire acted for good. Adm. Rogriss is the perfect example of an honorable man in the Empire. I do not doubt his claims.
    [/blockquotes]

    Cases? Rogriss could not have been a senior flag officer for the entire length of the Empire--when he undertook such humanitarian missions, he would have also been a younger officer under orders from someone else. Rogriss would have been assigned to such missions from Imperial High Command, for instance.

    But, even you Imp fans have to concede that the Empire mistreated non- humans on a extraordinary scale.


    Imperial policy is that non-humans may also become Imperial citizens. All Imperial citizens have identifical rights, and under the law, all are equal. High Human Culture, an idea proposed by propaganda minister Pollux Hax is just that... an idea.

    In practice, aliens were indeed mistreated. But practice is not policy. Imperial law would not stand for such abuses--it is merely the actions of many people that allowed such abuses to take place. In time, such abuses would have been corrected.

    The Empire, officially, after all, does not distinguish. It brought medicine and peace to aliens of all people. Corrupt individuals would ,of course, always be a problem in any institution.

    For example, how can you justify the conquest of Mon Calamari. Remember, the Mon Cals only rebelled after they were opressed by the Empire.


    The Mon Cals rebelled during the attempted inclusion of the planet into the Empire. They were never a part of the Empire because they fought off a takeover. This was partially because the Empire favored the Quarren, a known rival of the Calamari.

    I am unsure as of the motivations of the conquest, because the Empire didn't seek to take everything... so I can't really justify it.

    Heck, they even fought on the side of the Republic during the Clone Wars. (I know some didn't, but the world and some of its greatest leaders did, like Adm. Baraka.)


    I can't addess continuity holes like that... previously, Mon Cal was unknown until the Empire came across it. Now, it was apparently active in the Clone Wars and apparently Quarren have been around the galaxy since the time of KOTOR.

    Or what about the Rebel leaders? Do you really doubt the sincerity on the beliefs of Mothma, Leia, Ackbar, Wedge, etc etc?


    Mothma? Absolutely. She's part of the priviledged ruling class that had its power removed in favor of the people. She's the ruling nobility of Chandrila... see Imperial Rome or Napoleonic France for hints on what the elite think when a single person takes their power away in order to protect the people.

    Leia... she was just naive and didn't get the chance to see things properly. When she did age and get wiser, she was operating off of old beliefs. Infinities A New Hope points out that she would see the right of things, if ever given the chance to.

    Ackbar was mistreated by Tarkin, and thus, would always have a grudge against the Empire. He seeks revenge, and would not tolerate the Empire's existence, even in a more representative form.

    Wedge was similarly wronged when his parents died, though it wasn't even at the hands of the Empire. He merely joined the Rebellion because tons of smugglers and criminals were.

    The majority of the Rebels, the rank-and-file like Ackbar or Wedge, is mislead by the rich nobles who lead it. People like Garm bel Iblis, who can fund an entire insurgency on their personal wealth. The ENTIRE Rebellion was funded by Leia, Iblis, and Mothma's personal funds... it was their own private military to gain them power. Did they ever share the wealth or use it for the people? No, of course not.

    They hoarded it and used it to gain power at the cost of the masses.

    They used
     
  13. Serapindal

    Serapindal Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2004
    The empire mantains order and stability and rebels disrupt that order and stability...

    If the rebels never interferred... how many lives would have been saved?

    Lets see... most the lives of those people who died in the wars following the battle of endor would have not occured.

    Also in the NJO 365 trillion people died...

    If the empire was still there I bet the casualties would be less than 365 people!

    The empire stops wars from happening and protects every day normal people from bad stuff...

    The rebels rebeled because greedy dictators like mon mothma and other rebel scum wanted more power for themselves so they began to try to create anarchy for them to take power in the confusion.
    Now I'm not saying the empire is perfect but over time it would improve because of three things... trial and error,people willing to cooperate... and keeping people bent on genocide in check.

    Also the destruction of Alderaan was needed to destroy rebel scum. The civilians losses were reggreatable but unavoidable and Alderaan was supporting the rebel alliance so it had to be destroyed for the good of innocent imperial citizens everywhere.

    They transformed the efficient goverment of the empire and brought back a corrupt goverment that heros like Emperor Palpatine fought to change and by helping the galaxy and innocent people and he paid with his life because of the cowardly, unhonorable assasination by the rebel scum! It sickens me!
     
  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    If the empire was still there I bet the casualties would be less than 365 people!


    Impossibly doubtful. The Empire would have lost many capital ships driving off the Yuuzhan Vong, and any single capital ship contains a crew of more than 365 men.

    The rebels rebeled because greedy dictators like mon mothma and other rebel scum wanted more power for themselves so they began to try to create anarchy for them to take power in the confusion.


    Oh, they're hardly dictators. They're more like oligarchs. It's easier that way.

    Also the destruction of Alderaan was needed to destroy rebel scum. The civilians losses were reggreatable but unavoidable and Alderaan was supporting the rebel alliance so it had to be destroyed for the good of innocent imperial citizens everywhere.


    That's a... horrible thing to say. The deaths of innocents are never justified in any case of war, and just because the ruling royalty on Alderaan supported the Rebellion does not mean the rest of the planet does. Standard Imperial policy would be to put the leaders on trial, and if guilty, give them a proper leader (preferably from the royal family) to rule instead.

    Murder is never a legitimate Imperial weapon.

    They transformed the efficient goverment of the empire and brought back a corrupt goverment that heros like Emperor Palpatine fought to change and by helping the galaxy and innocent people and he paid with his life because of the cowardly, unhonorable assasination by the rebel scum! It sickens me!


    That's just the sort of misinformation and lies that one would expect from a Sith. You obviously agree with their methods, given your sig.

    Palpatine is not a hero. Heroes do heroic things--he was a leader who reformed the government and made it better. That's entirely different from a hero.
     
  15. Serapindal

    Serapindal Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Ok maybe 365 was a little too little... maybe eer 365 thousand- 365 million... (still alot less than 365 trillion anyways and they would just use alpha red or something...) Alderaan was not innocent. It was supporting the rebellion to do stuff to empire and it's citizens. Alderaan was basically helping the rebellion commit ghastly terrorists acts like the cowardly attacks on the peaceful space station the death star... funny name for peaceful station but... it was an attack on a peaceful civilian mining outpost that used the superlaser to destroy asteroids and other lifeless rocks and stuff to harvest the ores deep in the asteroid/lifeless rock. It is easily classified as a terrosit act since it was on a peaceful civilian mining orbital outpost called the death star.
     
  16. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Alpha Red would not be necessary. Conventional warfare would be sufficient to retard the Yuuzhan Vong advance.

    EDIT: But this is getting off-topic... we're discussing the Rebellion at the moment, not the Empire. Any discussion about the Empire should really only be related to the Rebellion.
     
  17. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Jello:

    Argue as we may, there is no way to justify the invasion of Mon Calamari. The Empire never tried to peacefully allow them into any sort of alliance.

    Accordig to numerous sources, the Empire arrived at Mon Cal with the intent to garrison the planet and its impressive shipyards. To make an impressive example, the Empire bombarded and sank three floating cities, killing thousands.

    It was this that caused them to rebel.

    There is NO justification for this. While you may believe that the Empire never authorized horrible actions, this is definately one of them.

    Granted, you could argue that some Imperial fleet officer did this without orders.

    But, that argument seems to get thrown around alot by you pro Imperial people. Perhaps there is trouble controling leaders in the Imperial navy? :p :D

    --Adm. Nick
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Nick: The Starfleet is controlled directly by regional officials. All actions are undertaken by certain individuals. While I'm sure the Starfleet captains did not attack on their own, the administrator might have authorized the act.

    Grand Moff Tarkin would have been the administrator responsible. His possession of a Mon Cal slave solidifies this.

    Tarkin, as we may find, is the source of many of the so called 'abuses' of the Empire. They are indeed abuses and terrible actions--but not undertaken by the Empire, but rather, him personally.

    Unfortunately, the Mon Cal situation is one instance where Tarkin--legally--had the authorization to undertake such an enterprise. Oversector Outer was his responsibility.

    Alderaan, of course, was a Core World and out of his jurisdiction. Also, the destruction of an entire planet is beyond the authority of anyone save the Emperor himself.

    Mon Cal is an atrocity, and one that must be blamed on Tarkin. He is a scourge to the name of the Empire, this I concede.
     
  19. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Jello, practice far outweighs policy. The enslavement of the Wookiees and the turning of Kashyyyk into little more than a glorified slave depot means that not all sentient being were treated fairly.

    And as for the Death Star, this is from the WEG Death Star Technical Companion, page 17. Crew lists...

    607,360 troops.
    25,984 Stormtroopers
    42,782 'Starship support staff' (Not sure what that means in its entirety. It probably refers to stuff like engineers and flight controllers. Can someone help me out with that?)
    167,216 supports ship pilots and crew

    Except for the dubious support staff, whom I'm not entirely sure about, there seems to be strictly military personnel there.

    And no Imperial atrocities? Tarkin massacred dozens of peaceful protestors on Ghorman. His punishment? He was made a Moff.
     
  20. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Jello, practice far outweighs policy. The enslavement of the Wookiees and the turning of Kashyyyk into little more than a glorified slave depot means that not all sentient being were treated fairly.


    Slavery was also permitted on that planet under the Republic. This was nothing new, and can hardly be blamed on the Empire.

    Except for the dubious support staff, whom I'm not entirely sure about, there seems to be strictly military personnel there.


    Conflicting sources? The Technical Journal states that there was a large civilian population on the station.

    Perhaps the WEG book is only referring to station crew, and not civilian staff?

    And no Imperial atrocities? Tarkin massacred dozens of peaceful protestors on Ghorman. His punishment? He was made a Moff.


    That was indeed an atrocity, and one undertaken by Tarkin, furthermore. It was not supported by Imperial policy, or law, and it is hardly representative of the Empire as a whole.

    It's an isolated incident. A terrible one, but hardly suitable to condemn the entire Empire.
     
  21. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo

    CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2000
    Please keep in mind the military does hire civilians to do simple things such as making sure that blinking red light on the console works. Not every engineer, technician, etc is military. Go to any military base anywhere in the world and you will see civilians working on that base. So there is a very high chance that the Death Star still had civilians working to maintain the station while the military went about doing military stuff.

    Also, the Death Star is a city in itself. It has things such as a shopping center and recreational parks for the troopers to relax while off duty. Such things are managed by civilians. Last but not least, non-hired civilians are allowed to live on military installations if and only if they are the spouse or offspring of a soldier assigned to that base.
     
  22. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Perhaps there were civilians on the Death Star. However, as a battle station, it still remained a military target.

    The "safety" the Empire offered its citizens was the safety of a cage. Sure, they were alive, but what kind of life was it if you weren't free? Where if you speak up, you're brutally silenced? The Empire's track record with protestors is brutally clear.

    Even if the Republic's anti-slavery laws weren't always perfectly enforced, at least they EXISTED. The same cannot be said for the Empire, where the government USED slave labour.
     
  23. Evil Incarnate

    Evil Incarnate Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2003
    The rebels suck, and the Empire Rules!(well they did for awhile! :p)

    end of discussion! ;)

    Evil.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Perhaps there were civilians on the Death Star. However, as a battle station, it still remained a military target.


    So the loss of civilian life was mere 'collateral damage'?

    The "safety" the Empire offered its citizens was the safety of a cage. Sure, they were alive, but what kind of life was it if you weren't free? Where if you speak up, you're brutally silenced? The Empire's track record with protestors is brutally clear.


    The Empire had a lot of supporters. The 'freedoms' that people like to refer to aren't really perceptible ones. They weren't perceived in the Republic, and it's questionable whether they even existed or not.

    If anything, the cushion of Imperial law provides more freedom than the bureaucracy of the Republic... a system that only allowed the elite to have their way.

    There was no notion of living in a cage. There was moreover a sense of being protected. That was the vision of Empire.

    Even if the Republic's anti-slavery laws weren't always perfectly enforced, at least they EXISTED. The same cannot be said for the Empire, where the government USED slave labour.


    If something exists but cannot do anything, then it is mere fiction and exists solely for ideological propaganda.

    And as a side note, Wookiee slaves were only used on the Death Star project. Guess whose direction that was under?
     
  25. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    The point is, as a military target, attacking it doesn't fit the dictionary definition of terrorism.

    The very fact that Tarkin was allowed to CONTINUE doing all the things he did illustrates the flaw of the Empire.

    Furthermore, the Republic's anti-slavery laws were effective for the most part. The Empire was no better in controlling crime in the regions controlled by the Hutts, as illustrated by Jabba.
     
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