Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by TheTelmarine, Aug 14, 2008.
Bumping this because we had a Grievous episode (where he actually won Obi-Wan!), and I made up a theory.
I rewatched Grievous' duel appearances in every visual media (CW, TCW, ROTS) and now I have some picture on how he thinks.
From Grievous' datapad, page 25, fighting the Jedi:
1. Use your droids for jedibait. They are not good for much else. If those banker idiots don't let you have a big army for this, then slip a few of commandoes or guardians off the books to exhaust the Jedi before you show up.
2. Terrific entrance is terrifying. Try to plan your entrances in advance to gain phychological bonuses, but if you are the one that is being surprised, then at least growl, or swing your lightsabers. If the opponent is Kenobi, tell him to stop smiling.
3. Use your skills either one at the time or all of them at once, depending on situation (remember what Dooku told you about phychological fighting)
4. Playing fair is for people who don't already have four hands. If there's a way to get things more in favor for you, use it.
5. Good victories come fast. The Jedi have one arsenal which you don't, The Force. If they remember they should use it, then go to part 6. Before that, try to keep them occupied with your sabers or other ways. If you gain victory, it usually comes in this part. If the Jedi retreats, you better have some droids to slow them down and swing traps they might make on the way. Then follow them.
6. So the Jedi remembered their Force, then? Then either go to better ground and start again from part 2, or retreat completely, again depending on the overall situation. Sudden clone or Jedi reinforcements also apply for this point. If you retreat, try to make it even little epic. Remember, "Jedi Scum" is never out. Don't call Dooku for a while, he could give you his Look.
Back when Lair of Grievous came out, we made sure to complain that his trophies consisted of 'padawan braids', and yes, braids are heavily associated with learners.
However, looking back at the scene, I think some of those trophies looked too thick, large or whatnot to be padawan braids, if they are indeed of uniform length and size.
I also went through some of the older Dark Horse comics and was able to find instances of Jedi Knights with braids or braid-like hair, too.
Sora Bulq, along with others of his species, has several braids in his hair by virtue of Weequay tradition.
A'Sharad Hett and a decidedly less prominent Jedi both have single braids.
Roblio Darte seems to have his hair and beard almost completely braided.
Well, not much to be said here. Just bringing up the possibility that not all braids belong to padawans, so Grievous might not have had such a pathetic track record in his episode.
BEHOLD! I have resurrected this thread from the grave!
Season 3 had hardly any Grievous. We had ARC Troopers and Heroes on Both Sides as the only speaking/major roles, and a few cameos in opening newsreels.
I hope that wasn't making up for the regular incompetent appearances of Grievous in the first 2 seasons, and we are due to see him a bit more in Season 4. Hopefully with him actually killing Jedi and winning some battles for once. His appearances in episodes thus far haven't really fitted very well with the reputation they give him in the newsreel.
And dammit add in the extra fingers already! Plo Koon got an updated model so why shouldn't Grievous? Recent episodes have shown us they are more than capable now of animating on a Pixar-level if not more.
Yeah more fingers six like in the movie and that one fourth vocabulator added to his "mouth" and victories- definitely victories- some jedi master killed by him- i won't care even little eu-conflicts but some master need to die by GG:S hand(s)....
I think Grievous was portrayed pretty well this series. He matched Obi Wan again, it was Ventress who failed, his attack on civilians in HoBS seemed pretty well done too. I'd like to see more of the Battle for Felucia in S4, and see some of his tactical genius. Although next series may focus on Savage, depending how they tie up the ending. If Maul does somehow return those two would get the focus annoyingly.
I'd also like to see him engage a couple of red shirt Jedi and their fleet and just decimate them, but that would depend on just how they want to portray him. If he can match Obi Wan there's no reason he couldn't have equalled Savage's acts, but Gallia's comment throws in confusion.
you mean "season" not "Series" there is one series with many seasons..... HOBS was good while GG:s speech to droids was but odd... yet funny.... episode itself was best political episode with Supply Lines and Sphere of Influence....
I do mean series, I'm English.
so does 'series' also mean only one well... season....??? sorry i'm not native speaker Â´-but that's confusing terminology really- you mean this 2010-2011 series "Secrets Revealed" not previous ones like "Rise of the Bounty Hunters" or what..... entire tv-show?
No he means series as in Series 3, Series 2 etc of The Clone Wars TV show. I'm British too but I prefer to use Americanisms because they are more universally understood.
Yeah America a series is the show, season is the 1st, 2nd [rise of bounty hunters] 3rd [secrets revealed].
Proper English [it's called English for a reason ] series is the 1,2,3 and I guess we just use show or programme to refer to it as Clone Wars.
Well The Clone Wars is american Tv-programme or Tv-series as it's also called- so we should all use american terms i think- i need to talk english too here- so nothing against proper british english but it's more clearer all talk same language here- I cannot talk my own either so it's bit unfair anyway for all but americans .... but anyway now i know that 'one series' is also one season for british.... but may confuse many other non-native speakers- not all here are brits or americans you know..... just my suggestion- you know i have no power to order anyone here but TCW being american 'series' are 'seasons' for them and this is called season3 all the time- even more confusing is existence of old CW-show so when you say Grievous was good in 'this series' sounds to me you were referring he was not so good in old Genndy-CW..... plus how you even say plural form of 'series' correctly is it just series or series'.....? damn hard.... easier to say season, seasons, this season, last season, next season..... etc.
I'm thinking to save the movie line Dooku should realize that he should not train any more force users after getting rid of Ventress and Savage betraying him so he takes GG under his wing and teaches him lightsaber combat. Then GG starts killing high ranking jedi because he actually knows how to defeat them from Dooku, and not just using lightsabers like regular swords. I think that this would actually save GG reputation and make him a feared enemy. Remember we are only after the first year of the war he still has time to redeem himself.
Grievous shouldn't have to redeem himself since he was an awesome Jedi killer until the TCW show. He has just been turned into a wimp who runs away all the time compared to how he used to be portrayed before.
The main issue is that his defeats are largely tactical.
Sabre wise off the top of my head he matched Obi Wan 4 or 5 times, defeated Ashoka, decimated her even, which is only impressive because in general she's quite overpowered, defeated Nahdar Vebb, did pretty well against Fisto, Galia duel was very short but he didn't seem to have a problem. I'd say that's a pretty good resume.
Tactically though he lost the Malevolence, his fleet was wiped out and lost the listening outpost in the duel of droids duology, Rookiees defeat wasn't due to his tactics, he somehow lost his ship in Grievous Intrigue, which had very little visible damage, had to run away in ARC Troopers, although the fleet wasn't large enough to actually destroy Kamino so the episode is rather confusing. Fisto escaped in Lair of Grievous but everyone else was killed. The one proper victory in my memory is Grievous Intrigue where he captured Koth. He also didn't make Tarkin's error, when trying to destroy Anakin, when he launched everything he had at him which I quite liked, especially as the droid went it's only one ship he can't escape.
That's an appalling line of defeats for the Military Commander of the CIS, in the newsreel he seems to win a few times and he's always made out to be the main threat, but we should be sat thinking oh it's Grievous' fleet will the heroes manage to defeat him rather than oh it's Grievous how long till he gets defeated and runs away.
While I would like to see the CIS have more (or at least some) victories in this series (not season), I see that as a separate issue from its portrayal of Grievous. I've heard the commentary from Ep. III where Lucas states that he created the character to be one who strikes and then makes a getaway, so I'm not at all pissed that this series has followed through on that character development. As a poster above mentioned, it's not like he gets his ass kicked in lightsaber duels and has to run away, he holds his own and then finds a strategic time to split. I'm a big fan of the idea of Darth Tyranus deciding not to train any more apprentices because of what happened with Ventress and Opress and having a scene where he explains that and has his first lightsaber training session with Grievous, that'd be some awesome back-story and if it can be done after the last time we see Grievous have a confrontation with Obi-Wan in TCW, his line explaining that in Ep. III all of a sudden makes a ton more sense.
Now the problem I have with that is if he didn't get any specific training beforehand then how did he hold his own at all? Surely he can't just pick up a lightsaber and match a Jedi Master with it just like that, he must have already been trained by Dooku. Maybe his training gets more intensive but I can't believe that regardless of what he got up to before the crash/improvements. And anyway Ventress already said in ARC Troopers, "Count Dooku may have taught you how to swing a lightsaber General" so obviously he's already had the training.
Now granted she then goes on to say "But that hardly makes you my equal" so maybe he's not entirely up to scratch and may need some refresher training but the fact is that Dooku has already been grooming him by this stage.
Hmmm, good point, I was wondering if there had a been a line of dialogue somewhere along the line that would've made that problematic, and it looks like there is... I don't think there would be a problem with him holding his own in duels before being trained by Darth Tyranus, he does have 4 robotic arms that spin in circles (it actually usually bothers me watching his duels because he inevitably does nothing with at least one or two of his arms/lightsabers which makes it look like he could easily kill them the same way he did Vebb), but the line of dialogue you're referencing certainly creates a problem.
Grievous is being portrayed how he was always intended to be, this is how he was in ROTS a coward and typical saturday morning cartoon villain.
Yeah and you would've thought after all the times he's done the rotating-hands trick that the Jedi would have wised up and learned how to counter it, and not look so surprised every time he does it or whips out the extra arms. But of course that would require logic, something which always seems to get misplaced in the making of each episode.
Well, I can see how a Jedi might know Grievous could do that but actually seeing it for the first time would be very intimidating. For me the constant spare arm that could be used to kill his opponent at any given moment if he felt like it is much more bothersome. Especially since the only time we've seen him kill a Jedi in a duel in TCW that's exactly how he did it, so it's not like there's some underlying logic that says he can't for some reason. If you're going to have someone with four arms and four lightsabers fight someone with two arms and one lightsaber, you have to execute it in a believable way, which isn't the case when there are all these spare arms/lightsabers just hanging out doing nothing the whole time.
In EU Adi Gallia supposedly died when she didn't know about GG's double hands- well in TCW they have brief and very fast fight with no extra hands in use so it still makes sense but i think Adi will receive new death scene unless they retcon her to be "Stass Allie" after all and remove Stass character from canon..... anyway i hope that would remain similar she would die by him- and because GG would use his extra hands as surprise......
GG's odd comment in ROTS could be explained simply by extra training of Dooku or then Obi-Wan's some sarcastic comment "you need training in our jedi arts General"
I don't think that Grievous was always intended to be the typical Saturday morning cartoon villain since in the Republic comics and micro-series, he didn't just run away and wasn't a coward. He would kill whoever was in his way basically which was why he was awesome in the first place.
Grievous killed Adi Gallia and she wasn't supposedly dead. He surprised her with his extra arms and stabbed her so there isn't any way that can be retconned unless it is said that it was Stass Allie instead which is a stupid idea.
Actually he was.
Grievous in TCW is very much like the Grievous in ROTS, he was always intended to be a stereotypical saturday morning villain, who usually runs (hell, Mace even calls him a coward in ROTS and his actions suggest that he was right). The reason w hy people think his characterization is screwed up in TCW is because he made his debut in the EU, whom took his character in a much different direction.