Official Legacy of the Force: Betrayal Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

I still don't think Jacen killing himself is an option that should be taken too seriously. I don't think many of us would easily choose that path in his place, and speaking from a bird's eye perspective of sorts, he's too potentially useful to the cause of the Jedi and the GA, if he later makes the right choices. In terms of power and versatility, he's the closest thing the Order has to another Luke, and they could certainly use that.

But yeah, I'll have to go with not killing Luke. Unless he somehow ends up needing to be killed, which I doubt, and I'm sure that if Jacen were thinking clearly he'd see it too (whether "it" was desert or not), and act appropriately. Some of the visions where he kills Luke may mean that killing Luke is necessary. Unlikely, but in any case, a reason for Jacen not to act so rashly.

Is there any evidence that he was being manipulated through the Force? Nelani seemed to think so, but I doubt it. Lumiya's conversation with future-Sith-Jacen seemed to suggest that everything depended heavily on his choices, and it would fit with his past with Vergere.

 

For all he knows look could turn dark, I mean, he had just fought an evil-bearded version of Luke....


Killing himself? I dunno it sounds like a cowardly choice, Nelani would still kill/arrest Lumiya or the other way around. It wouldn't really solve anything.

 

But if Luke were to turn dark, then killing him might be the only way to stop him, so in that case, Jacen shouldn't want to avoid killing him.

 

. . . I really can't see why this is being debated.

Allstone said that Lumiya may (read: was) have tampered with his visions . . .

 

Ah! So there's a piece I wasn't aware of. So the choices themselves were his, but there was also Force manipulation? (Just out of curiosity, when/were did Allston mention this?)

 

Hehe, considering some of the characters in question, this made me laugh

 

It was in an online chat which took place at the end of May. You can read Allston's comments here.

This is the part that has been mentioned:

<master_skywalker20> did the dark energy in the astroid effect Jacens visions...or where those accurate

<Aaron> MS20: The energies themselves may not have affected his visions, but Lumiya might have...

 

Thanks, Revan.

I don't know why, but for some reason I had trouble picturing Vergere as avian throughout the NJO; I kept seeing some leaner version of the Cheshire Cat with kind of a wild mane.

 

Well there are lots of pictures of her if you had trouble


[image=http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/3791/newsith10bp.jpg]

 

Jacen didn't consider that the dark energy nexus could have been influencing his visions. He moved too rashly, too quickly. But I'll also agree with those on this board who refuse to characterize Jacen as an instant Sith monster. He didn't have much time to make his decision. The stakes were enormous. Lumiya's arguments about her and Vergere's approach to the Force could be mostly valid (and not just elaborate deceptions). He had logical and rational reasons to do what he did. He suffers pain but believes that what he's done is essential to save both Luke AND the galaxy. He accepts this pain as the price of doing what he believes is right. Yes, he's moving toward true darkness, towards little more than the "shadows of light" that Luke senses in the book's beginning...

...but he's not quite there yet, people. And will he truly become the enemy Luke senses? Or will he become a more powerful yet relatively benign Vectivus type? Only time will tell.

Don't be surprised if the authors throw us some curveballs in this series. I have a gut feeling that we're going to see some unexpected twists and turns, especially concerning Jacen and Ben.

 

How do you know that Vectivus even... EXISTED.. whose word? Lumiya's? you seem to discount anything she says when it pretains to Vergere bieng a Sith.. so she only lies about the things you dont want to be true..

...but he's not quite there yet, people. And will he truly become the enemy Luke senses? Or will he become a more powerful yet relatively benign Vectivus type? Only time will tell.

Luke says at the end of the book that the phantom fight was used to distract him from the "Shadow Man" bieng created.. JACEN IS THE SHADOW MAN. is the implication.. the reader who actually reads the book as a whole is beaten over the head with the fact that Jacen is acting like a Sith, Dark Nest is the same way.

And anyone who Murders a comrade based on a speech IS a monster.

 

Well, he didn't murder her based on the speech, per se; the speech led him to glance into the future, and what he saw is what sealed his decision.

I don't think he's discounting what Lumiya said about Vergere at all. "Mostly valid," he said.

I think we all get that he's the man-who-didn't-exist, but we don't know the extent of his malevolence yet. Yes, I remember what Luke said about bringing him great pain, but that's still a little vague insofar as his "total effect" is concerned. I think he could potentially bring himself to commit a Temple-raid-esque atrocity, but he could also end up more of a Dooku type. Not that Dooku was an angel, of course. I mean the image he cultivated. I see Jacen as that kind of Sith Lord. Not that there's really any "good" kind of Sith Lord.

I'm not making apologies for Jacen. But I don't think he'll go the way of Palpatine. I don't see him coming back the same way Kyp did, either, though. Speaking of which, hasn't Kyp done even more damage than Jacen in his own past? But now he's with the good guys. Not that I'm particularly fond of Kyp, either... I think Jacen will always be a rogue, and once everything comes to light I don't think it'd be appropriate, either in-universe or out, for him to come back entirely within the folds of the Order, even though Kyp did, because that's hundreds and hundreds of pages of character development wasted. But he might still make himself a proper agent of the Unifying Force, whatever such an agent might be.

I'm still wondering how Jacen/Ben/Luke/Mara will react to the possible realization that they were fighting each other. Or will it even come up?

 

I'm hoping that it will...

 

Vectivus existed for one simple reason: Sith with great names are rare



True, he may not have been a nice and huggable guy as Lumiya described him, but there's no reason to pull a name out of the hat, especially when the Jedi may know the list of Sith and if their like "Um, "Darth Bob" isn't on the list...". But if she chooses one who they will probably not know of, but if they have some sort of list or knowledge it would check out, she could use him.

 

what does vectivus mean anyway? how is it ""evil""? jacen was looking for sith teachings i mean you could see that a mile away. he was just waiting for an excuse to follow it.

 

According to Allstone, Vectivus is derived from 'invective'.

Essentially, to curse or swear. Say bad things, perhaps.

 

Right on. And invective is close to Invector, a great Impstar name.

 

" Is there any evidence that he was being manipulated through the Force?"

I don´t think that Jacen was manipulated through the Force, but thanks to Ghost Jacen Lumiya knew what to say, do or don´t do.

 

I don't think Jacen was looking for Sith teachings - I doubt it occured to him all that often - but given his sojourn and the Vergere hints, yeah, it's not particularly surprising that he was interested.

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Another good point, Alex. And if Allston's suggested that Lumiya manipulated the visions - if not his will itself, a noteworthy distinction - then her time with future Jacen might've made him easier to read, and his mind easier to "navigate," if you will. Coupled with her apparent talent for illusion, limiting what he saw to the duel-across-the-timelines, even if she didn't alter any details, makes sense.

**

Over in the Lit Reviews thread a lot of people have mentioned that Jacen is for some reason thinking in light-vs-dark terms again. Do you think he's actually gone back to those concepts or that they're just convenient semantic distinctions? For example, when he skimmed the "dark side" to open that door, maybe it required tapping anger. And all that ambient dark side energy would be the residue of terror and rage and malevolence, as opposed to some "essence of evil," unless one considers fear and anger to be inherently evil.

 

Jacen reminds me a lot of Palpatine in the sense that he is trying to learn every possible aspect from the force. I don't think he'll turn out exactly like the old guy, but still...

 

Thanks for helping to clarify my position, Lion. The points you made above were excellent. I like the single term you use to characterize Jacen: rogue. At this point, he's much more that than he is "evil." Big kudos on the Kyp comparison: I hadn't considered that, but you're spot-on there.

 

how crazy would it be if ghost jacen was really future jacen who used himself to turn himself.

does anyone see the irony in darth vectivus, who apparently thought of himself as one cultured and refined fella, is really darth swear word? that is just funny.

 

bump

 

I didn't especially care for DN, either (despite the bunnies it spawned), but you will want to read them, Dan. It will help and LOTF is worth reading DN for.

Z