**Official** Love Story discussion thread.

Obi-Can

The only thing that pushes you that far is fear, and Anakin is not afraid.

Sorry that's completely wrong.

Anakin is deathly afraid- of everything. That was Yoda's main problem with bringing him on as a Padawan to being with "Much fear I sense in him."

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to suffering..."

Anakin is afraid of being alone, afraid of not reaching his full potential, afraid of losing Padme, afraid of displeasing his Master, and yes- afraid of losing control and his inability to control his rage.

Fear rules Anakin's life. His actions are often dangerous and reckless to counter that fear in him. He also thrives off of the fear of others. This explains his interrogating Zam and his slaughter of the Tuskins. (This is a plot point- I really don't feel like getting into any kind of moral debate over this fact- it is just what happens w/ Anakin and I accept that.)

You notice in the Love Pledge scene - Anakin has pretty much given up almost all hope of anything and rather unconvincingly tells Padme "Don't be afraid."

She responds "I'm not afraid to die." This is true- because Padme, like her children, is fearless. Anakin is completely surprised by this confession from her. And it is her strength that she breaths into him in the Love Pledge that brings him back to life and goodness.

It is again when he is afraid Padme is dead after falling out of the ship that he loses focus. Had she been there, waiting in the wings, he might have been better focused and able to take out Dooku- but his FEAR prevented him from fully focusing on his mission.

For Ep 3 I guarantee there will be a large amount of fear in the Jedi discovering his marriage. And his fear at not being able to protect his wife and unborn child that will send him over the deep end.

Luke by contrast does not fear anything, until ROTJ. Vader is fascinated by Luke, because Luke seeks him out, willingly, over and over while on Cloud City. The only way he is deterred finally and able to fully stop the boy is to take his hand off.

It is once he stops fearing the Emperor, and realizes the worst fear in the world would be to allow his son, his flesh and blood to die before his eyes- that allows him to let go of hate/anger/fear and redeem himself.

 

PLJ,

Excellent analysis.

 

Sami,

I'm confused. Wasn't it you that was saying Anakin was not interesting, not good, etc, just the other day? And now you'd like to be kissing him? He never appealed to me in that way. The romance did because it was romantic (and romance is romance), but he's so young! Attractive, yes, but then there are plenty of attractive people in the world. hehehe 'Xplain? Is this like wishing you were Juliet in Romeo and Juliet, or what? Didn't you also say you didn't like all that romantic, gushy stuff and the love story sucked? Refresh my feeble old memory.

Signed,
Confused in Florida

 

PLJ,

Very interesting.

 

For Ep 3 I guarantee there will be a large amount of fear in the Jedi discovering his marriage...

Well, if you can't wait until Ep 3, you can now start reading my new fanfic, Broken Vows, the sequel to The Love of a Jedi. In it, Anakin and Padme's marriage is discovered by the powers that be. What happens next? Click here to find out!


(Sorry for the shameless plug... )

 

U,

You must have me confused with someone else. I said Padme wasn't (all that stuff you said I said about Anakin).

When I finally get my story polished up, you'll see what I mean. I don't use my married name--I might get tossed out of the New Rebellion if people knew who I used to be.

No, don't want to be Juliet in R & J. Just Mrs. Anakin Skywalker.

Sorry (NOT) for the shameless plug.

P. S. Please direct me to my posts of the above if I really did say that about Anakin.

 

PLJ,

He also thrives off of the fear of others. This explains his interrogating Zam and his slaughter of the Tuskins. (This is a plot point- I really don't feel like getting into any kind of moral debate over this fact- it is just what happens w/ Anakin and I accept that.)

He is full of fear and anger according Yoda. However, that's not what I was referring to. I was talking in real terms not psychoanalysis terms. In the Tusken Massacre he's not afraid for his life, he's not afraid for his mother's life, he's not afraid for Padme's life. When you are afraid for your life or the life of a loved one that fear will do one of two things to you. it will either paralize you or it will push you to extreme behavior. Anger is Anakin's primary motivator in that scene. After the massacre, is when the fear sets in. He's then afraid of himself.

Feeding off of fear, I don't buy that. The Tuskens don't even know he's there, until he starts slaughtering them. It's anger pure and simple. I think he tells us himself his motivations, his lack of control over the situation. He thought he could fix her and make it all right. He couldn't so he takes his frustrations out on the Tuskens.

I think the Tusken massacre is the most important and critical scene in the whole movie. How can you not analize it and find his motivations. Yes it happens, but that happening is the start to his fall. He will never be the same again. That is his first step into DV.

I agree with the rest of your analysis. Very insightful. However, I don't think fear is the only motivator in Anakin's fall.

 

Ladies,

When Anakin slaughtered the Tusken Raiders, he became a "mindless killing machine" because the anger at himself for not being able to save his mother took over and was directed outward at the Tuskens. He killed them all because he could not stop himself.

He charged Dooku alone because the rage he felt at the deaths of all the Jedi Dooku had killed in the arena was possessing him again just like when he killed the Tusken people and he did not want Obi-Wan to see him become that "mindless killing machine" again.

What was he afraid of? Not seeing his mother again, not getting there in time to save her, failure.

However, fear wasn't the motivator, anger was.

 

Scruffy

No problem because I love shameless plugs! It shows confidence.

 

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!

 

Obi-Can

I think the Tusken massacre is the most important and critical scene in the whole movie. How can you not analize it and find his motivations. Yes it happens, but that happening is the start to his fall. He will never be the same again. That is his first step into DV.

Why don't I drone on endlessly about a scene that lasts -oh 30 seconds in the film? Because there are another 2 hours and 21 1/2 minutes that are just as worthy of analyzing and thinking about.

I have never condoned what Anakin does. It is horrible, it is tragic, it is frightening. But you know what? I refuse to dwell on it- I would think if I sat around all day thinking of how twisted Anakin was for 30 seconds of the film, and completely ignore the rest of it, that I would go insane. I don't enjoy watching things about serial killers in real life- we all know that was the key moment for him- the life altering step he took.

Anakin takes the wrong road. He stepped into that animalistic part of human nature that most people do not ever reach into. It's horrible.

And frankly I'm sick of it being brought up in the Love Story Thread. There are other threads out there that deal with Anakin and his reaction to the Tuskin Slaughter- please go seek them out. Or create a new thread yourself.

We seem to go in circles on this. Why? It's 30 seconds of film. There are plenty of other things to discuss. I have no problem getting into other aspects of his character- I'm just tired of this subject constantly being brought up here. I think we've all rehashed it to death... so to speak.

Obi-Can Sorry I am venting- this post was not intended to be directed at you specifically- it is me shouting out to everyone with a plea.

 

Abstract



Thank you! I was about to post that!

 

U,

You can stop looking, I found the post. I said I did't see why PADME was interested in Anakin. Then I went on to list all the reasons why she, at 24, having been a queen and a senator, would not be interested in the whiny little brat Anakin seems to be. But, a younger girl, who had led a relatively sheltered life, might be.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Just a few photos before bed- never say I don't do anything for the boys around here!:

1. [image=http://yodawars.com/ep2couple.jpg]



2. [image=http://yodawars.com/1skin.jpg]



3. [image=http://theforce.net/episode2/newspics/insider58-4.jpg]



4. [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/ew-circle.jpg]

 

OK, after I dropped here a long time ago, from a country far, far away (I'm the spanish boy who complained about the dubbing), I realized that my thoughts always were expressed by somebody else with better words and I went into lurking mode. But with this poll about the outfits, I cannot resist the opportunity of dropping here again. So, here we go:

1 - nightgown at Naboo - AotC
2 - white battlesuit (torn) - AotC
3 - battlesuit - TPM (I love how she looks with that elaborate ponytail)
4 - skating sportswear in Beautiful Girls (Oooops! Wrong movie! I know, she's fourteen there. But if Willie - Timothy Hutton's character - can wait, I can wait,too... Ok, OT. Let's re-elaborate)
4 - farewell at the binary sunset - AotC
5 - wedding dress

Going back into lurking mode.

 

PLJ,

Sorry if I bore you. There's alot of topics brought up here, that bore me. I don't however, dis these posts for being boring or accuse someone of droning on or ask them to take it to another thread. I was responding to something Undomeil brought up. My suggestion is to ignore it, and not try to control someone else's posts.

This is the love story thread, which includes apparently talking about Padme's wardrobe, sports, who each one of us lusts after and your fan fics. I don't mind these off topics, I find them amusing. I think talking about the Tusken massacre is more on topic because it's one of my major issues with the romance. I don't buy that someone like Padme would marry a man who murders children.

So talk about what you want to and I'll talk about what I want to. And believe it or not if there's not an interest in the topic it will go away. However, your attempt to stop me from discussing something only makes me more determined to discuss it. So please be a little more tolerant of other peoples interests and opinions.

 

I think the love story was very well developed. It wasn't anything super dramatic-just a boy and girl falling in love. I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

Hey everyone! i've been replying to a different message board for awhile now. PLJ told me about this page. I'm a huge fan of Pad/Ani romance. (i hate calling it Ami/Ani cuz she never goes by the name Amidala) .

personally, i feel if anybody's whiny it's luke skywalker. think about it. he whined when obi-wan was instructing him, he whined when yoda instructed him, he whined to darth vader. he whines constantly! i personally find it very annoying.

anakin is full of fear. i'll agree about that. it was his fear that led him to the dark side. he was afraid of what might happen to padme and his child.

 

Obi,

There's alot of topics brought up here, that bore me.

Oooooooooo, low blows abound. Fortunately, that proverbial low blow is something we ladies are not vulnerable to (no external hardware hehe). For the record, I am like yourself. I can talk on just about any subject and find something of interest to expound upon. Let's try this again, only with a bit more finesse this time.

Apparently, you've made several good points concerning Anakin's shortcomings. These are obvious to all and sundry. Most of us agree what Anakin did in the Tusken camp was wrong. So you can relax on that account. Where we appear to disagree is the human aspect of his behavior and how it applies to his relationship with other more "rational" people. You've sufficiently argued your case to suit many of the posters here, who either agree with you wholeheartedly, or in premise, or inherently, at the most basic level of humane treatment of other beings (in this case, Tuskens). Perhaps this is what PLJ is saying. Since we agree he was wrong and his behavior was irrational and perhaps even a form of temporary insanity, what more needs to be said?

For some reason, I get the feeling you need to wrap this up by appealing to your audience with the reasons for your personal inspirations in these regards. Tell us who you are and what you feel is so important about passing this message to others. Tell us why the topic is so important to you (I know, but not everyone else does). If you have a website that discusses similar topics, that you feel might assist others, direct us to it, put it in your signature. Prove you aren't just here to blow hot air at everyone, in short, put your reality where your words are. Roll up your sleeves and show us the true rational behind your posts.

The truth should never be so invisible that none could glean wisdom from it without clawing and scratching it out of the dirt of insults.

 

Hmm... I can't - and won't attempt! - to speak for Obi-Can here, but the reason I think we keep coming back to the Tusken slaughter and a few other events is that it is HUGELY HUGELY relevant to the Love Story. This thread wanders quite a bit, but I think .. and I say this with all due respect, recalling quite clearly the firestorms of some earlier times... that a few folks here want to see this as a cute, cuddly, neat, dreamy romance... when I think the truth is much, much, much MUCH darker.

We KNOW who Anakin winds up as... a half-man, half-machine, neo-Nazi, black as pitch, mass murdering Darth Vader. You really can't, IMHO, say..."Well, sure, that Tusken thing was awful...but doesn't Annie have such dreamy eyes?"....*S* Padme, the smart, moral, clever, compassionate former queen and current Senator decides to look the other way when her budding boyfriend tells her he slaughtered an entire village, man, woman and child. Yikes...what does that really say about her and about their relationship? Saying it only makes up 30 seconds, or two minutes of the film, really misses the point. That scene gives you a clear window into who Anakin is...who Padme is KNOWINGLY falling in love with... and where Episode 3 is likely to take us.

As to Anakin's actions being human...hmmmm. I would say that Anakin's actions are indicative of humanity at its WORST. Truly, as representing the Dark Side. Acting out of anger and a thirst for nothing more than personal vengeance, he revelled in his bloodlust and committed mass murder. Is this something humans do? Sure. At their worst, their most base, their LEAST humane..and in some ways, at their LEAST human. I have to say that while soldiers are sometimes guilty of atrocities, the acts REMAIN atrocities, and in my mind, there was no similarity between what Anakin did and what a typical soldier, in Vietnam or elsewhere, did... or, for that matter, what Luke did when he blew up that first Death Star and sent thousands..hundreds of thousands...more?... Imperial personnel to their deaths. This was selfish, personal, and evil....

Finally...I have said this before, but must say it again... GL chose to block off ten years of Anakin's life. That was in interesting choice; it leaves room for lots of ambiguity and speculation by all of us (as we have seen when debating Obi-Wan's tutelage of Anakin!*S*) ..but... when Anakin goes off, when he snaps and kills the Tuskens...he does so after having had TEN YEARS of Jedi training in controlling emotions, in not giving in to hate and anger and revenge, in feeling compassion and understanding, in dealing with trauma and fear in a way that does not lead to bloodlust. You really MUST keep that in mind. You can't ask yourself what a "typical" nineteen year old might do in that situation, and judge Anakin on that standard, because he is NOT a typical nineteen year old! When Anakin indulges in slaughter, in a thirst for vengeance, it is WORSE, it is MORE shocking, it is MORE troubling, than if "random Tatooine Youth #5" had done it, not less. And it makes Padme's "acceptance" all the more dangerous and disturbing.

SO... Obi-Can will doubtless chime in, but for me, it is useful, now and again, to keep this context in mind when discussing the Love Story. There are certainly plenty of dreamy posts here ... I think O-C does a good job of providing a counterbalance, of highlighting how truly dark and twisted and disturbing this love story really is, on many levels.

Shadow

 

Shadow,

War is always thus. It will never be otherwise and often the choices are limited. When Luke destroyed the Death Star, the Rebels had two choices: kill or be killed. Tarkin had made it obvious that the primary role of the Death Star was take out entire planets, and had proven it by doing just that. And it was on its way to Yavin, nearly there in fact. This is often how it is in war. This is not to say I am comparing Anakin's behavior in the same fashion as Luke's because they are different, entirely so.

However, I still maintain this is not Obi Can's entire reasoning for debating the topic. I maintain, instead, that because of her line of work in RL, she feels impelled to supercede on the behalf of people (and especially women) and point out the inherent flaws in Anakin's behavior and how they impact women and humanity, in general. Which she has done, repeatedly. This is PLJ's complaint, from what I surmise -- the repeatedly part. The next rational move on Obi's part is to point out WHY, she is compelled to do so.

Hush and let the woman speak. Don't cloud the issue before it's revealed.

 

And as a woman, who thru the course of events in her life has dealt with people in Obi's line of work (If I remember waht she does correctly). I can point out why I see it differently. Having lived with it for 10 years and continueingto deal with it. I know when I see it, and he ain't it baby. I know a poophead when I see one, and he is not one. I understand the need to warn people but, not every guy who goes off the deep end is abusive. I see Anakin in a different light.

IT tends to cloud how you see everything.

 

I'd just like to comment on the dreamy romance and the overall importance of the Tusken slaughter. And I'd like to start off my liberally lifting from Falls_the_Shadow by using his ever helpful quote:

"The doors to Hell and Heaven stand side by side and are unmarked." (approx.)

The love that Anakin has for his mother also opens his heart to fear and anger. The Tusken slaughter is sort of an unescapable situation. Yes, Anakin has been training in the ways of the Jedi for 10 years, but that also means his power in the Force and his skills with a lightsaber has also grown. When his mother passes, there is a void in his heart, one that must be filled with a substitute love (which Padme has withheld from him) or something other than love. Here on earth, a lot of people use alcohol. But for Anakin at that moment, the light at the end of the tunnel is his power in the Force. His belief that he should be able to impose his will on the world. The Tuskens happen to be his lab rats, the first to suffer the wrath of Darth Vader. Remember, the hero walks a razor's edge, and he must, at some point, walk alone where NO MAN has walked before.

I won't debate morality here, because to impose our beliefs on a GFFA is a impossible exercise. The rules are different. It's like trying to impose aesthetic values in a Monopoly game.

As far as Padme goes, she is a talented enough woman to believe she can save Anakin. That her love can bring him comfort and calm his fears. I will say this again. I don't believe Anakin would have fallen if Palpatine had been dealt with effectively. Anakin would have found the middle way, so to speak, and carved out a life of great accomplishment, leading the Jedi into a new age. It just so happens that the most evil man ever created in movies is intent on turning Anakin to the Dark Side.

The Tusken slaughter is what it is, the first misstep down a dark path, but one that becomes a footnote in the greater scheme of things.

 

Still waiting on Obi's comments.

 

Obi-Can

Sorry if we bore you as well. Many of us around here have enjoyed getting to know each other and sometimes like to take breaks and goof off together. If you find that annoying well sorry.

Shadow

I've had my caffine today and you just hit a frigging nerve in me pal.

that a few folks here want to see this as a cute, cuddly, neat, dreamy romance... when I think the truth is much, much, much MUCH darker. You really can't, IMHO, say..."Well, sure, that Tusken thing was awful...but doesn't Annie have such dreamy eyes?"...

There's the kind of comment that I just love from you Shadow, the King of Condescension. The fact that you seem to wish to lump us all into mindless, hopeless romantics, who are oblivious to the faults of Anakin and Padme is greatly insulting. The fact that we don't wish to sit around and let the faults of the characters fester and stew in our brains also shows something- it shows that we love these characters for their roundness- we accept their faults as well as the positive aspects of their characters.

Padme, the smart, moral, clever, compassionate former queen and current Senator decides to look the other way when her budding boyfriend tells her he slaughtered an entire village, man, woman and child. Yikes...what does that really say about her and about their relationship? Saying it only makes up 30 seconds, or two minutes of the film, really misses the point. That scene gives you a clear window into who Anakin is...who Padme is KNOWINGLY falling in love with... and where Episode 3 is likely to take us.

Am I really "missing the whole point" to AOTC by not saying we should not only focus on 30 seconds of film? Gee thanks Shadow for AGAIN pointing out what a frigging IDIOT I am. You must be a genius. In case you've forgotten - there is a whole other film that came out prior to AOTC, called The Phantom Menace. The point of the film- the main point- was to show how much, and how deeply Anakin loved his mother. How compassionate and wonderful Shmi was.

Shmi was kidnapped, beaten, and abused. For a month. This happened to what we could basically see as a "Mary" figure. This is the reason and motive behind Anakin's actions.

Were his choices Correct? NO.

Was he right to slaughter innocent women and children (who all idolly stood by allowing Shmi to stay held captive?) NO.

Again and again we go around the morale carousal that never seems to want to end.

You can't just take Anakin's actions alone to understand him. You have to conceed that you understand WHY he did what he did. Blinded by anger and pain, because of his loss, the boy slaughtered a tribe of nomads (who killed 26 people trying to rescue Shmi.) Yes it was his first step towards evil. Yes it was horrible. Yes Padme is somewhat of an idiot for blindly going forward with him.

However, Anakin felt remorse for his actions. True serial killers, mass murderers- those without a conscienc- never feel remorse. Anakin was horrified by his actions. This is THE reason Padme allows herself to love him. She knows and understands how much he loved his mother. She knew his pain and understands it.

He showed repeatedly that he would do everything in his power to protect her at all cost (killing the khouns (sp?)) and flying out of ships to catch her assassin.

Anakin is fueled by his capacity for love. His problem - as has always been the problem of being a demi-god is that he focuses too much on his human side, instead of understanding and fostering the God within himself. Having grown up a slave- he has many self esteem issues. His heart is the only thing that is truly his own. He gave it freely, only to 3 people in his life: his mother, Padme, and Obi-Wan.

When you have someone who has the power of the heaven's at his disposal, the last thing you ever want to do is make that person feel pain and loss.

Anakin is dangerous. We know that. That danger is bubbling, was there in TPM. The thing is PADME is THE ONLY ONE who can control him. He listens to her alone. She is his rea