Clone Wars *Official* Obi-Wan in TCW Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Garth Maul, Dec 10, 2009.

  1. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

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    star 5
  2. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Two Jedi, you see, because Obi-Wan alone is incapable as will be seen (apparently) while it is equally apparent (apparently) that had Obi-Wan brought Anakin, the chance of success would exponetially increase to nearly impossible to flub up (apparently).
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  3. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    C'mon, Anakinfan, remember there's a thread in Movie-Prequels that questions why Anakin wasn't sent rather than Obi-Wan to apprehend/kill Grievous. The assertion is - I guess - that Palpatine wanted Anakin to go and Anakin wanted Anakin to go, but the Council sent Obi-Wan and it should have been Anakin's "victory" over Grievous. The corollary to that assertion is that at the very least Obi-Wan should have taken Anakin with him.

    (My response is why? Obi-Wan succeeded, so in hindsight, nothing was wrong with the Council's decision re: Grievous.)
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  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Right.

    Let's see...he could have...

    Left the Order and married Satine.

    He also could have used the Force to strongly encourage Anakin not to turn to the Dark Side. Sent him a few Force-enhanced hugs as well, because damn Obi-Wan, all those years in the Jedi Order, he certainly should have learned how to send Force-enhanced hugs at some point, shouldn't he? After all, Anakin learned how to choke people using the Force, and learned pretty quickly.

    And dammit, he should have interfered sooner in TPM and stopped Maul from killing Qui-Gon, then Qui-Gon would have trained Anakin and of course Anakin would have never, ever turned to the Dark Side under Qui-Gon's tutelage.

    Obi-Wan should have killed Maul in TPM, too, that would have stopped him from attacking Mandalore during TCW,

    Oh, wait...





    But yeah, it's all Obi-Wan's fault.
  5. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    Come on, Fanboy, you didn't really need that 20 minutes of your life, did you?
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  6. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Hey, I was entertained. [face_laugh]
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  7. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Wait for the next episode, Anakin really could provide important help for
    Show Spoiler
    his pilot skill
    .

    I wouldn't have a problem he succeeded this time, and it's not to kill someone, but rescue someone.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    I think "It's all Obi-Wan's fault" is going to be a new running joke along the lines of "It's all Obamacare's fault."
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  9. eukaryote Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 21, 2008
    I saw the six Star Wars films in order :D. But I did not mind Obi-Wan lying to Luke like others apparently do. I thought it was kind of tragic, like Obi-Wan really told himself all those years that Vader killed Anakin in order to diminish some of the guilt he felt for chopping Anakin up on Mustafar. Plus Obi-Wan's lie added a great deal of suspense to the story, because you know Luke is going to find out the truth eventually, but you don't know when that will be or how he will react. I actually liked viewing the saga like I did, but it was kind of difficult to go from the fall of the Republic and Order 66 to 3PO and R2 rolling around in the desert for what felt like 20 minutes.

    Hmm, well, I'm mildly disappointed in that, but then wouldn't this further redeem Obi-Wan from his "mistake" for not bringing Anakin along? He had no idea of the real dangers that awaited him and Satine. Remember season 2 when Obi-Wan fought Pre Vizsla? He wiped the floor with him, so he probably did not think of Death Watch as a much of a real danger to him.
  10. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    Show Spoiler
    This is a message for Obi Wan Kenobi. I've lost Mandalore. My people have been massacred. And Almec is now the Prime Minister. I can't explain everything now, but Almec has the support of the crime families, Obi Wan...I need your help.
  11. eukaryote Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 21, 2008
    Those are civilians though, not warriors or Jedi. Plus I am sure Obi-Wan knew how extreme Satine's pacifism goes, so I don't think it would be a stretch for him to conclude (correctly) that it would take a mere mediocre violent group of people to overthrow Satine's rule. It's tragic, but Satine is overly idealistic and hopeful, and it did not take much for her government to topple. In addition, Obi-Wan has most likely become so used to defenseless civilians being massacred over the course of the war that it does not frighten him in the slightest like it would you and me. I am curious to see if that is exactly what Satine tells Obi-Wan or if there are minor differences from the novel to the show. I have not read the novel but I probably will eventually.
    Last edited by eukaryote, Jan 31, 2013
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  12. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Mandalorians are a group of warriors, like the Spartans. While Satine prefer pacifism so might disarmed them but they are still stronger than most of the civilians. That's why Maul wanted to rule them.

    What he should know from the message.

    Show Spoiler


    1. The Death Watch should be there.
    2. Criminal organization was supporting them.
    3. She lost power.

    Actually it's pretty much the truth beside Maul brothers.


    So the situation is very bad, at least much worse than the previous ones. Her life is clearly in danger, it's not like if you make mistake and she dies you can have another chance, why
    Show Spoiler
    refuse some great Jedi and pilot when he was eagerly to help?


    If Obi Wan did make it I wouldn't say a word but be happy with it, but sadly it's not the case.

    I'm going to watch the episode to see the actual rescue, from what I read.

    Show Spoiler
    Anakin really could make a difference, especially his pilot skill.


    Let's wait and see.

    I admit I am a bit frustrated to see this tragedy, I'm not surprised of what Maul and the Jedi council did because I know well of them and never had hope, but I actually hoped Obi Wan would do the best for her.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jan 31, 2013
  13. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    See, with 20/20 hindsight it IS Obi-Wan's fault for not maximizing his chances and taking Anakin along. If he truly cared, he would not care if potentially Anakin turned out to rush headlong into things, making them worse, or got himself injured or killed - see, Obi-Wan just wanted to be "the" hero and "the" savior and his pride and lack of true love and desire to do everything possible and more for the woman he loved but refused to commit to - (whew, what did I post?) - it cost
    Show Spoiler
    an innocent woman's life. She should have called for Anakin's help - the younger heroic less "Jedi" man who would have singlehandedly saved her. And the proof of that is that she did not survive due to Obi-Wan's pride and incompetence on his own.
    .

    The moral: when you care enough, you send the best, not yourself.

    Corollary to the moral: What's the point of being a Jedi if you don't have 20/20 foresight so you don't have to look back at things with 20/20 hindsight and know you "didn't do the right thing"?


    :oops:
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Jan 31, 2013
  14. Seerow SWTV★Manager

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  15. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    I just think he should grab all the help he could, especially when people are offering it. And we know Anakin, usually could provide great help.

    There is one thing I always don't understand well of his character. His master's master Dooku, his master Qui Gon, his padawan Anakin are all quite passionate and were against the PT Jedi discipline, even Luke disagrees with it at some degree. How come Obi Wan is overall a devout follower of it?
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Feb 1, 2013
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  16. Jordan1Kenobi Host of EUC Battle of... Games

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    Because he's on the Jedi High Council, and I don't think anyone on there would want to break the Jedi Code.
    Last edited by Jordan1Kenobi, Feb 1, 2013
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  17. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    Dooku fell to the dark side and became a Sith, he is not an argument for going against the wisdom of the PT Jedi, he's an argument for following it.

    Not following Qui-Gon's example is less obvious, but still demonstrable. Perhaps Obi-Wan saw Qui-Gon's disregard for authority as ultimately counterproductive. "If you would just follow the Code you'd be on the Council." Perhaps Obi-Wan thinks he can do the most good on the Council and in the Council's good graces. That's not to say Qui-Gon didn't rub off on him, as evidenced by his training of Anakin, him not making trouble over Anakin's relationship with Padme, and him having faith in Anakin in ROTS when others did not.

    It's probably mostly because Obi-Wan is not Qui-Gon, he is Obi-Wan and could not be otherwise. Qui-Gon's rogue attitude just doesn't seem to fit Obi-Wan's nature, Obi-Wan seems to listen to and trust in the wisdom of others, sometimes even over his own, while Qui-Gon puts no one's wisdom above his own.
  18. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    So if you love someone deeply it wouldn’t matter to you that your feelings were not returned? Would you throw away something you had strived for your entire life for a potentially one-sided love? Being a Jedi is more than just a job, it’s a way of life and not something that could easily be abandoned.

    What did he do to more than one woman? Seduce them? Swear eternal love, devotion and commitment and then throw them away when a new woman caught his fancy? Certainly not! He and Siri became aware of a mutual attraction, but decided to do their duty as Jedi and remained friends. Obi-Wan and Satine were also attracted to each other, but they failed to realise just how deeply the other’s feelings went and so their relationship also ended in friendship. Taria and Obi-Wan were friends who at some time took comfort in one another, but both were in agreement that their feelings for each other did not go beyond friendship.

    What campaign? Use your imagination (you’re a fanfiction writer, right? It shouldn’t be a problem) there was a massive-scale war going on, there would be plenty of campaigns to choose from. Maybe it was top secret and Obi-Wan wasn’t allowed to tell Anakin anything at that time. Maybe there was no campaign and it was for a completely different reason he didn’t bring Anakin; all I’m saying is that it’s a possibility – one among many.
    In one of the preview-clips Obi-Wan tells Satine that the Jedi Council and the Senate will not be of any help to them, so no, the situation on Mandalore was not a serious issue compared with other campaigns.

    Because Luke asked directly how his father died and would not be satisfied with such a vague response; he already knew his father had died around the time of the Clone Wars because Owen had told him. He wanted Obi-Wan to be more specific than that.

    Should they have told Luke a different lie? Maybe.

    Because unlike Luke and Padmé Obi-Wan witnessed the bodies strewn all over the Jedi temple, he saw Anakin cutting down defenceless children and the people he once called friends in cold blood, and for twenty years he saw Anakin ruthlessly murder enemies of the Empire. If Obi-Wan had showed Padmé the recordings of Anakin killing younglings her opinion might be different. Obi-Wan likely saw Padmé’s words as a denial that her husband was completely lost – just like she refused to believe that Anakin had turned to the Dark side.

    Luke brought out what little goodness was left of Anakin which he was able to sense. That goodness was not evident the times Obi-Wan faced Anakin – in fact, during the time Anakin was a Sith there was nothing in his behaviour that even hinted at there being something left of his friend in Vader, and since Obi-Wan placed the well-being of the Galaxy over his own personal feelings he could not afford to give Vader the benefit of the doubt.

    No it’s not, and it’s not unreasonable for Obi-Wan and Yoda to expect Luke to do his duty as a Jedi and serve the greater good. Even if Luke sensed good in him, Vader still served evil and was willing to commit evil deeds.

    Yes, Luke used his anger and hate to defeat Vader because he allowed Palpatine and Vader’s words to get to him, and it’s likely he would have fallen to the Dark side if he had killed his father in that specific situation. The big difference is that the Jedi expected Luke to kill Vader because it was the only way to bring an end to the oppression of the Sith and prevent the loss of more innocent lives – in other words: to do it for the greater good.

    Yes the Sith could kill their relatives like that because they are selfish and the only thing that matters to them is gaining power. The Jedi were expected to be able to kill their relatives if it was neccessary in order to preserve countless of innocent lives, which is probably why the “no attachment”-rule was created in the first place: to make that duty easier if they should ever find themselves in a situation in which they had to choose between a relative and the greater good.

    And Obi-Wan didn’t start a romantic relationship with any of the women he loved. So again I ask: why is it wrong for Obi-Wan to have feelings for more than one woman considering he is not bound to anyone, but it’s okay for Anakin?
  19. Dathomir-Witch Jedi Master

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    Jan 2, 2013
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    I remember a movie in which a knight and his apprentice free a queen, her handmaidens and some of her guards, though the capital has been invaded by an army...
  20. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    If I was an author and I was given permission to write EU for Star Wars I wouldn't give a damn about what other EU authors had written either (unless they fit with my interpretation of the characters and events). I think it's a shame that EU is about who first manages to patent a specific period or event, and then other authors have better stay clear of it and respect it as the "truth" - especially if that author does not do a very good job of it. For instance, I would certainly not mind another author make his or her version of how Obi-Wan became Qui-Gon's apprenticeship even though that has already been covered by Jude Watson.
  21. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    Then it's highly unlikely they'd ever allow your work to get published. They wouldn't even sign a deal with you unless you agreed to at least pay lip service to EU continuity.

    I sympathize with you on Jude Watson, but they set it up that way to maintain a consistent story and to avoid telling the same story over and over, and it's something I approve. Without it, there is no continuity, which is what sets Star Wars EU apart from other franchises, it's something I find appealing (or rather, it was). However, some authors have had their versions retconned in some way, often when they're considered undesirable, but usually the story isn't done over, the details/conclusions are just retroactively changed. I, Jedi covering the same time period as the Jedi Academy Trilogy is the only example I can think of of a story essentially being told twice.


    Jude Watson's books are young readers, they don't really have any standards, it's all about pumping out as many as possible as fast as possible. I think if a more serious author wanted a shot at the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan relationship, it's possible they'd get it and be allowed to ignore Jude's work, the young readers novels really have no pull in the overall continuity of EU.
  22. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm not an author and don't have any work to publish so that's fine with me, but if I was an author I wouldn't let the works of other authors restrict my interpretation.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Cloak of Deception and Plagueis also cover the same time period and events but from a different angle with the main focus on different characters, and they're both Luceno books.

    Jude Watson makes my head explode for a number of reasons; just one minor example, I'm pretty sure Brock would have been sent out of the Temple for bullying Obi-Wan that badly, I can't see the Jedi tolerating it. It was a very lame attempt to reach out to kids who have been bullied, and it doesn't really work in the context of the story.

    But unfortunately I don't think there could be a re-boot on how Obi-Wan became Qui-Gon's apprentice, although there would be plenty of room to write their relationship between Obi-Wan at 13 or so and Obi-Wan at 25; I don't think much other EU material has covered that time period.

    LOL. I liked Satine in the first Mandalorian arc but in this one, she seemed to have "pacifism" confused with "refusal to stand up for oneself." If she had any strength whatsoever she would have put up some sort of fight. As she was portrayed in Shades of Reason, if she got rescued, she'd go down again as soon as the first army of Gungans teddy bears small kids with toy Clone Wars blasters with Nerf bolts anything resembling a threat appeared.

    He did. And LOL at the assumption that Anakin wins every battle he ever fights. Mustafar anyone? The Sky Battle of Quell? That scar on his head that Ventress gave him? As I recall from the trailer, Obi-Wan
    Show Spoiler
    didn't want to have to worry about Anakin doing something rash, and wanted to be able to concentrate on trying to get Satine out of there
    .

    But yeah, it's all Obi-Wan's fault.
  24. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Yes I will, and if I have feeling of someone but could not give her what she wants, I will give a clear no and try to stay as far as possible.

    He should make it very clear, if he got feeling and not be able to leave the order for that, he should keep clear distance with them rather than calling them "My dear" and do little when they showed love.


    At that time, Anakin was not signed to a campaign, so don't use the excuse of it unless you have proof, also the Mandalorians are a serious issue like I said, the Jedi Council is stubborn like usual.



    "Your father fought bravely in the Clone Wars and sacrificed his life to save others."

    Why use "Vader killed your father?" It would create hate in Luke and he might try to "avenge" his father, especially after Vader killed Obi Wan.


    Padme knew it as well, even herself got choked by Vader almost to death, Luke saw Vader kill the rebels mercilessly as well, Vader captured his friends, killed Obi Wan, cut off his arm and almost killed him in EP IV. He never saw the good Anakin, but Vader, only Vader. But he still chose to believe in Vader, and he was right. Qui Gon also told Obi Wan Anakin was still there in EU.

    No, it won't be a different, Padme asked Anakin about it and later saw what had he become, then she still believed in him, she saw him wanted to kill her, the wife and unborn children of his, even though he caused her death, she still believed in him.


    It is, because it's unrealistic. Yes Vader is evil, but the amount that took for a son to kill his father would make Luke fall into darkness as well.

    Expected? Please, Vader is his father, it's not like he could forget it, only hate and anger could let him forget about love and kill him. Not even Obi Wan himself could do it, how could Luke do it without drawing hate and anger? It's easy to say but impossible to do, because they are not machines, they are humans.

    The "no attachment" is what caused PT Jedi to fail, and Luke later changed it. Emotion is not something you can really drop off, if you suppress it too much it will lead you into darkness. And not all Sith are selfish, Dooku wanted to create a new, ideal order that's why he joined the Sith. Krayt also wanted to bring order to the galaxy. Traya wanted people to be freed from the Force. So they could kill people for this "greater" goal, like Dooku killed Sifo Dyas?

    Well he never refused it so keep it half open, is also not a way since people could be hurt.

    A master and his apprentice, yes, 2 of them.



    Yes she should, I said she was portrayed like an idiot in season 5. Viszla is only worse.

    No, but Anakin could provide help, why would he be so rush?
    Show Spoiler
    They could have made it if Twilight could fly up sooner.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Feb 1, 2013
  25. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    =D==D=^:)^

    Slowpokeing, Obi-Wan DID stay away from Satine for YEARS. He was sent to Mandalore and reunited with Satine after, presumably, over a decade of no contact. By then one "might" say their love had "cooled" and it was more an "undercurrent of regret" for what was in the past, but the fondness remained and hence the "my dears" and all. Actually, "my dear" is not Satine-specific, Ventress gets it as well.

    You seem to be looking at this strictly from the "woman's perspective" - cough - Satine's old and current love shows up, calls her sweet names and carries on with other women while separated from her while she has been pining away thinking Obi-Wan has remained true to their love, forsaking all others. Your focus (on Satine) is determining your reality (Satine has been wronged by Obi-Wan).

    As for not taking Anakin: if the episode has anything to contribute, we can talk more after the episode. But cannot you see you are looking at the events with 20/20 hindsight? Or is it that you are just too fixated on the fact that because more could have been done, more should have been done? Even if the latter, life is full of choices and not all work out as planned.

    I get it, I think we all get it. Because the odds would "have been better" in your view of success had Obi-Wan brought back-up, or at least "a better pilot" because apparently a better pilot would have been almost guaranteed
    Show Spoiler
    to save Satine. As if Anakin hasn't crashed already in TCW, I might add, making him hardly guaranteed of success.
    .
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Feb 1, 2013
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