Clone Wars *Official* Obi-Wan in TCW Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Yes sure, let's drop it for now and wait till it air.

Valairy, he or she isn't even seeing things from a woman's perspective, he or she is seeing things from a teenage girl Twilight fan/Harlequin romance novel fan's perspective.

If you would throw away your entire life's work for any sort of romance, much less one that isn't even a sure thing, that's your business, but condemning Obi-Wan for not being willing to do the same is laughable.

Unless Satine has a listening comprehension problem, "Jedi are not allowed to have attached romantic relationships" should be interpreted as a clear "no." And while "my dear" might be interpreted as a marriage proposal in your world, that is not the definition per se and people are allowed to use that on more than one person.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that the entire galaxy revolves around Satine and the Mandalorians and you're missing the larger picture. Seriously, go to Wook and do a search for a map of the galaxy, or if you have a copy of the Essential Atlas, check in there. See how many worlds there are other than Mandalore.

So instead of telling the "truth from a certain point of view," Obi-Wan should have told Luke a blatant lie? OK.

Obi-Wan was an evil ******* because he was a realist rather than a saint. Got it.

That's why Palpatine always encouraged Anakin to suppress his emotions.

Oh, wait...

In Satine's case, being hurt by Obi-Wan would be her choice, as he was never any less than honest with her about what he was capable of doing regarding relationships.

And yes, emotion is certainly something one can control. It's called being an adult. Anakin allowing himself to be ruled by his emotions was a sign of immaturity and stunted mental growth; it wasn't due to his being a better person than the rest of the Jedi.

LOL

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Why would Anakin be rash? I don't know, why is water wet?

Because it's water, and because he's Anakin and that's the way he rolls.

Again, ok I'm just going to jump off from the stuff of this episode.

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But the important thing is how does the Jedi actually behave, if he wants to make it clear then he should keep distance clearly to avoid hurting each other..

No, but Mandalorians are a major faction, if they turn on the republic it's going to be a very big disaster, sending 2 Jedi is not something too much.

Either tell the real truth, or some lies that will not let Luke hate his father and might want to avenge him, simple.

I don't understand why it's so hard for you to understand.

Anakin went too extreme, he's wrong, the PT Jedi went too extreme on another direction, and they are also wrong, even Yoda admitted it in the end of EP III's novel. And Luke changed it in the new Jedi Order.

Yes, to control and make it clear.

That's a wee bit extreme, don't you think? "Either be my one and only true love or stay away from me forever"? You see no middle ground in male/female relationships?

See the General Grievous example. Apparently neither the Senate nor the Jedi Order found Mandalore or any other threat more important than Grievous, but they still only sent one Jedi.

So you're condemning Obi-Wan for telling a lie that you didn't like instead of the lie that you wrote? OK.

LOL. I'm not the one who is missing anything here. Or contorting myself into a pretzel to find a way to place blame for all the galaxy's wrongs on the character that I don't like.

It's for the good of both if they have feelings of each other.

What does GG's example prove? The council made clear calculation of his skills and thought Obi Wan could deal with him, and they also sent many clones to help Obi Wan. Without the troops the mission could not be done.

I'm saying he should not tell a lie that's going to build hate in Luke against Vader, which could lead him to the Dark Side.

Both sides got their responsibility, even Yoda admitted it.

Not necessarily.

The argument over whether the Jedi were right or wrong to teach emotional control really belongs elsewhere.

But again, blaming Obi-Wan because he didn't do the sappy romance-song thing on Satine is way over the top.

Yes, and they freed more than ten people. So Obi-Wan saving only Satine would work

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if Maul weren't there - what he didn't know.

Anakinfan: I "coughed" for a reason.

Slowpokeing: What part of Obi-Wan and Satine didn't meet for years don't you want to comprehend - or whatever? You say he should have stayed away. HE DID. For years. Until he was sent to Mandalore. Is it your assertion that he should have told the Council, "Nyah, she has feelings for me, or did, and should I be sent, I would reawaken them and hurt her feelings so I must refuse to go"?

Once there, he did not speak of his feelings for her and only admitted he would have left the Order for her once she prodded him. I'm not that sure about that, myself, but considering Merrick was holding Satine hostage at the time, that whole "admittance thing" gets a lot of leeway from me. (I could but won't go into more detail on why.)

As for Anakin: Palpatine encouraged Anakin to fully experience and express his emotions, not suppress them. While not everyone agrees with me on this, I think the Order expected Jedi to accept and release their emotions (not act on them) - not suppress them and turn into emotionless robots.

He should keep clear distance with her, rather than something like he did in the preview if you have watched it.

But seriously let's drop it for now and wait for the episode ok? I could be wrong about it so let's discuss it after it's clear.

Good enough; it will be either tomorrow night or Sunday for me.

And then the madness resumes. I must get another bag of popcorn from the store.

It's a date! (Er, please, not leading any one on with that comment)

"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!"

Now what would be the fun in that? TCW crew wanted a good and emotional storyline, and if they'd made Obi-Wan stay away completely, it just wouldn't be the same, and if another Jedi had gone to protect her that didn't even know her, Darth Maul and Death Watch, and who hadn't worked with Satine before wouldn't make much sense really, because they'd be trying to protect someone they don't know and kill someone they don't know. This next episode was supposed to be based around Obi-Wan for those two reasons, so yes I think Obi-Wan should definitely stay near her and try to protect her, and you will see why they chose to use Obi-Wan when you watch the episode.

We seem to be thinking of Satine as some kind of victim of Obi-Wan's actions. I don't think she would think of herself as a victim at all. Satine is independent, focused, driven - she's not some sappy airhead that spends her time on her throne wishing Obi-Wan had stayed with her 14 years ago. She has feelings for him, yes, and he her - but think about. Would Satine have left Mandalore to be with Obi-Wan? No! She is just as committed to Mandalore (if not more so) as Obi-Wan is committed to the Jedi Order. They are equally strong and independent. That's probably the best part of their relationship. They acknowledge their feelings but they ultimately have bigger plans for their lives, and they accept this about each other. It's much better than this Anakin/Padme - oh ah! I can't live without you! I'm so in love! Either marry me or stay away from me because I'M SUFFERING IN YOUR PRESENCE - crap. No, I like Obi-Wan and Satine's relationship exactly as it is and I like the decisions they made. It's a perfect dynamic and anytime they are interacting with each other on the screen is golden. Neither one is a victim here.

There we go! That's exactly right.

Which is exactly what he did, so I don't understand what your problem is.

You know referring to someone as ‘my dear’ does not equal ‘I love you more than life itself! Marry me and together we shall set the galaxy alight with our love’. ‘My dear’ can indeed have a romantic meaning, but it can also be used about a dear friend, which is what Satine was - and in the preview when Satine hugs him, Obi-Wan doesn’t hug her back. So don’t worry, I’m quite confident that a mature, intelligent woman like Satine can tell the difference.

I didn’t say he was, I said that could be one waiting for him in the near future. And I admit I speculate just as you speculate that Anakin joining the mission could have

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saved Satine's life

, though you don’t have any proof either.

Why would it create hate in Luke? He never even knew his father. I’m sure he was angry at Vader for taking away the opportunity for Luke to experience a father-son relationship, but I think seeing Vader kill Obi-Wan hurt him more deeply at that time.

Luke says several times in RotJ that he can feel the conflict in Vader, and in the final duel he even claims he can feel the good in him. That conflict was not there until Luke entered the picture – and even then there it was no guarantee that the good would win. As I said, Padmé and Luke based their belief on an unreasonable hope that Anakin could return from the Dark side, Obi-Wan and Yoda’s belief was based on reason and 99% of the time it’s the realists that gets it right.

It could be. No Padmé did not see Anakin wanting to kill her and the babies, she saw/experienced him lash out in hurt and anger like he did when he killed the Sand People. She knew that Anakin could loose control when hurt deeply, but Anakin slaughtered those Jedi at the temple – children and adults alike – in cold blood, and there is a difference between the two situations plus it being told that Anakin has comitted murder is very different to actually seeing it.

No, not necessarily. Yes Vader is his father, but in blood only; he never had the kind of bond with his father that children normally develop with their parents as they grow up. And no, it’s not impossible to do, I agree it’s not easy, but being a Jedi is about making personal sacrifices for the greater good.

No, being outsmarted by Palpatine is what caused the PT Jedi to fall.

Yes they are: those you mentioned – Dooku, Krayt, Traya – they all pursued a personal goal and they didn’t care about how many innocent people got caught in the crossfire, and they certainly didn’t tolerate other people questioning their version of how things were supposed to be.

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I will try to avoid this to someone I have feeling but could not give her love, like the scene, I will either move away if she tries to hug me and tell her "Sorry but no" or decide to love her.

Let's see the episode.

Seriously, "Someone killed your father" is not something to make him hate this guy? Remember Luke's expression when he told Vader this in EP V? Yes that hurts him more deeply, but that lie hurt him as well.

There is conflict in Anakin, in the movie he cried after killed those CIS leaders, deeply regretted when he knew he killed Padme, even in the novel of EP III, which he was portrayed much darker than he was in the movie showed it. Quite a few EU material also showed he had conflict in his heart.

Realists? Anyone who's close to a realist will never think about a boy could kill his own father without being consumed by hate and anger, which is exactly what the Emperor was trying to do.

He was trying to kill her, no matter how angry he was. And Anakin did regret for those crimes he did, Padme is right.

There is bond between clearly after Luke knew the truth, he firmly refused to kill Vader, he clearly treated Vader as a relative in that conversation.

And that's the fatal flaw of the PT Jedi, they are asking people to do what humans could not, and that caused their downfall. Asking people to make sacrifices for the greater goal too much is not much different than the Sith.

They are trying to bring order to the galaxy, and it's a personal goal because they are Sith? And how is "kill Vader" not a personal goal if those are personal goals?The Jedi did pretty much the same thing, Revan was trying to commit genocide to 97.8% of the imperial population to end the Sith Empire and the Jedi were aiding him. Jun Seros tried to deceive the public and started a witch hunt against a bounty hunter. So Jedi's greater good is greater good but Sith' is personal gain?

Yeah and that works in the real world too – in the kindergarten and lower primary school, mind you. Trust me, girls can from a fairly early age tell if a boy has a romantic interest in her or simply likes her as a friend – especially grown women at Satine’s age. Actually, I think many women, including myself, would find the behaviour you describe highly insulting. Just because you can’t return someone’s feeling it doesn’t mean you have to behave like a jerk, especially when the two of you are old friends.

The majority of women are not as hopelessly naïve as you seem to think – in fact, women are generally better at reading people than men. So don’t worry, we are not likely to interpret a hug or a kiss on the cheek as a declaration of undying love.

Sure, but that won’t prove your point about Anakin.

I remember Luke’s expression, I also remember that this is right after Vader has cut off his hand; at that time Vader has taken Luke’s hand (which hurt as h**l), tortured Leia and Han, killed Obi-Wan, and murdered his father. So I see Luke’s expression and his exclamation as being a culmination of all the offences Vader had done to Luke.
Yes it hurt Luke, but he was quick to forgive Obi-Wan and Yoda because he accepted their reason for doing as they did.

By the time Padmé arrives at Mustafar he is convinced he has made the right choice and that is why Padmé fails to talk some sense into him. There was no conflict the times he fought Obi-Wan.

Wrong, a realist will expect that to bring peace and put and end to a murdering regime a boy will kill the mass-murderer who also happens to be the his biological father, but is essentially a stranger, not only to avoid being killed himself but also to save the live of countless of innocent people.

Anakin regretted killing the Sand People and choking Padmé, but he didn’t regret killing the Jedi.

He refuses to kill Vader because he has been pining for a father his entire life and is unwilling to loose him now that he has found him, and because, thanks to Obi-Wan, he knows his father was once a good man and he believes that good man can return.

No, some humans are capable of being selfless and that’s what it meant to be a Jedi.

Not the ‘greater goal’ but the ‘greater good’ – meaning that if a person went on a murdering spree it was a Jedi’s duty to put a stop to him/her, no matter if that person was a friends or a relative, to prevent more innocent people getting killed.

Wrong, they were trying to bring their order to the galaxy and they didn’t give a damn about what other people thought or how many innocent people would get killed in the process. Vader was a Sith, and the Sith had brought war and oppression to the galaxy and had committed mass-murder. If peace was to ever be restored the Sith had to be destroyed.

I haven’t read that part of the EU, but for me, the EU is little more than fanfiction. The movies are canon (and everything Lucas has personally read through and approved I can accept as canon), and in the movies we have Sidious and Dooku who are willing to start a bloody civil war to get what they want, and Vader who is willing to murder innocent people to get what he wants. Those are all selfish goals.

Exactly. And as I said, if a woman does interpret it that way, that's her problem, not the man's problem.

That's why I also asked Slowpokeking if he actually hung around any women who are over the age of 15 or 16. He's describing the behavior of teenage girls, and immature ones at that. Hell, even as a teenager I understood the concept of a "friend with benefits" and I understood the concept of "this isn't working as a romance but we can be friends." And I wasn't mature.

I got the impression that Luke was upset at not being trusted with the truth from the beginning. But yes, he understood pretty quickly why Obi-Wan and Yoda did what they did, he just wasn't ready to give up on his father just yet, as you mentioned. Whereas Obi-Wan and Yoda had had it ingrained in them, and Yoda had it confirmed through his experiences with Dooku, that it's virtually impossible to talk someone back from the Dark Side. Luke proved them wrong, but that was luck on his part, not a lack of foresight on Obi-Wan and Yoda's part.

They also knew that Luke was the only one left with enough Force-sensitivity to be able to do the deed. Obi-Wan and Yoda were ghosts, and anyone else in the galaxy who tried to fight Vader would get creamed immediately. I doubt they enjoyed sending Luke on this mission but they felt they had no choice.

LOL wut?

So by your definition, were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and Kim Jong-Il "unselfish" because they were "just trying to bring order" to their countries? When Saddam Hussein took over Iraq, the warring tribes had turned the country into an anarchist chaotic cesspool. He clamped down on that pretty quickly--does that make his being a dictatorial totalitarian **** acceptable?

Not a jerk, but keep the distance for sure, it's for both sides' own good.

That includes killing his father. So you admitted it grew false hate in Luke?

But he still loves Padme a lot, and did these mostly for her, there is still good in him, just Obi Wan could not see it.

A mass murderer is still his father, the boy clearly takes him as his father, not a stranger. Avoid? If Luke really killed, he would just become something similar but more powerful and will cause more deaths.
Even in law we have the role of avoidance. Even Obi Wan could not do it in PT, why are you keep saying Luke could do it and saying it's realistic?

He did, he did cry after killed those CIS leader, it got something to do with the Jedi, in EU he also thought about if he had not stopped Windu, he could become the leader of them.

So you know he had been pining for his father, then how come Obi Wan's lie we mentioned is not growing hate in his heart? In that lie it was Vader who took what he has been pining for his entire life.

Obi Wan didn't just know, he saw it, but he refused to believe in it and he was wrong.

From what we see, not even Obi Wan could do it. Nor did Luke continue this thing in the new order.

Who are the Jedi to judge what is good? To stop is not to kill, if you can kill your relative without emotion, that's called cold blood, which is close to Sith.

And by this mean, to bring order to the galaxy is stop all the chaos and murder as well.

Does the Jedi care of other people thought? How about CIS? Other people care about attachment and they said NO it's bad. As for killing, the Jedi did pretty much the same thing quite a few times in their history.

EU is canon as well.

The teenage girls must be extremely immature then or just not to bright in that area. It does explain a lot though...

I always thought the situation could be compared to a family in which a member is struck by illness: Anakin represent the one who is struck by a deadly and untreatable illness, Luke and Padmé represent the family who, beyond reason, hope he will miraculously pull through, and lastly Obi-Wan and Yoda represent the doctors who have to remain realistic about the outcome. In less than 1% of the cases the doctors will be proved wrong, but that hardly makes them evil.

No, there are quite a few Jedi left.

And Luke is their hope, then how could they let their hope to do what would certainly cause his fall to Darkness, something not even Obi Wan himself could do 25 years ago? Don't they remember Anakin's case?

Is the end like "Vader didn't go against the Emperor and Luke got killed" the worst? No, the worst is Luke killed his father and fall to the Dark Side, and that's exactly the Emperor's plan.

Traya was not going to rule, but bring freedom to people with destroying the Force. As for the others, it depends on how they rule.

Oh we are talking about fascism, which is asking people to sacrifice everything for the "greater good".

Oh, talk about reason and realistic when they are trying to push a boy, who clearly showed the love of his father to kill Vader without fall to the Dark Side, something not even Obi Wan could do 25 years ago. Can you give the chance of that?

Obi Wan and Yoda's version will be

Luke killed his father, and fall to the Dark Side, makes the Empire even more powerful.

Is it right or wrong? They aren't evil, but they still have the flaw of the PT Jedi, which is exactly why they failed. Sidious knew the flaw well that's why he won 25 years ago, that's why he was trying to lure out Luke's Dark Side, but he failed because Luke is no PT Jedi and there is good in Vader.

LOL wut? Yoda specifically said, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be." Are you actually suggesting that there are plenty of Jedi who could have taken on Vader, and Obi-Wan and Yoda chose Luke just for ****s and giggles?

If you actually believe there is such a thing as "good" totalitarianism, we're at an impasse.

And no, here is the dictionary definition of "fascism." I didn't see "sacrificing everything for the greater good" there, but I did see "totalitarian rule."

But yeah, damn those fascists Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa and Mohatmas Ghandi. Evil *******s.

A hell of a lot better than the Sith.

LOL. Nothing says "I love you" more than killing several small kids in your name.

Those people who "care about attachment" have the option of not being Jedi. In the ROTS novelization, Anakin intended to leave the Order as soon as the war ended. Even he knew that he had other options.

Your analogy would be the equivalent of my joining the Catholic Church and demanding that they allow women to be priests and allow me to preach scientific pantheism from their pulpits. There is no reason why they should have to do this, which is why I have the option of not being Catholic, an option which I have taken. I think their rules are ***ty but they are certainly under no obligation to change them simply because I think so.

LOL, they killed unarmed people in cold blood all the time I'm sure.

Oh, wait...