Yes, there are quite a few survivors and mostly joined Luke's new Jedi Order later, some even lived till the Legacy Era.

No, but they say they are good, they ask people to sacrifice everything for "greater good" like the nation's stability then equal themselves to it.

Did these people ask others to sacrifice everything for it? Did they push someone to kill their own parent? Obi Wan and Yoda were pushing Luke to do it.

So you know it's not right.

He did crime, but he had good in him as well. And that is the truth.

Actually they adapt little children to raise them as Jedi, when they didn't have a choice. When they talk about Sith they also don't give others a choice, he's Sith so he must be evil.

Yes they did, and far worse they once were trying to annihilate everyone who has a Sith ancestry.

 

Jedi are not evil overall, but the PT Jedi went too extreme and too stubborn since they didn't know people's emotion could not be ignored and just eye for "the greater good" even though they have no right to judge what is good. That's why Sidious won, like those lines in EP III, the Banite Sith studied the Jedi well and exposed all their weaknesses. He knew Obi Wan and Yoda's plan well in EP VI, and he was using it to lure Luke to the Dark Side, but he failed because the father still has good in him and the son does not have the flaw of the PT Jedi.

 

Obi-Wan was in the episode! And he was in character! Yay!

 

If I told an old friend that I had romantic feelings for him and he told me it couldn’t be, and then suddenly began holding me at a distance and refusing to accept a hug because he didn’t want to give me the wrong idea, I would certainly consider him to be the biggest jerk on Earth.

What includes killing his father? I admit to no such thing; if Luke harboured actual hate for Vader it had, IMO, more to do with Vader killing Obi-Wan, torturing Han and Leia, cutting off his hand, torturing and killing Luke’s fellow rebels, and last but not least threatening to turn Leia to the Dark side.

No. In the beginning saving Padmé was the motivating factor, but by the time Padmé speak to him on Mustafar, Anakin is so drunk on power he worries more about killing Palpatine and ruling the galaxy than saving Padmé – at which point Padmé steps back and tells him she doesn’t know him anymore.
If you saw your best friend kill your entire family in cold blood, swear loyalty to a man that had staged a bloody war to become the sole rule of the world and help him implement a dictatorship, then choke his wife and unborn child, and state that if you did not join him he would kill you, and show not even a tiny bit of regret or remorse for the things he had done – how would you feel about your friend?
The Anakin Obi-Wan and Padmé met on Mustafar was too drunk on the power of the Dark side that the what little goodness remained was buried so deep that it might as well have been non-existent. That is why he doesn’t even show remorse or concern for the unconscious Padmé after he had choked her; the “old Anakin” would paid no heed to Obi-Wan and rushed to assist her and beg her forgiveness.

If Luke killed him in hate and anger he would do that, but if Luke killed him because it was the only way to save countless of innocent lives plus the lives of his friends and his sister he could do it without turning to the Dark side.

There could be plenty of reasons for his tears – even if it was regret for killing the Jedi it was completely gone when Padmé arrived and he remembered his motivation for doing it.

Pining for something does not equal obsession, nor does it mean you can’t accept fact; in ANH it’s clear that Luke has been missing a father figure but he has also come to terms with it. Why would knowing that he had been killed create hate? For all he knew his real father could have turned out to be a poor father (neglective perhaps even abusive); even though Luke didn’t have a father he had been well cared for, and though his life had been uneventful it was still decent.

Obi-Wan didn’t see because the times he saw Anakin after he had become a Sith, there was nothing to see.

Yes because he was emotionally overwhelmed. I’m quite sure if Obi-Wan had been able to think rationally at that point in time he would have ended Anakin’s suffering.

Preserving innocent lives is usually considered good. Who said the Jedi killed without emotion? There a more emotions besides anger, hate, and fury such as sadness, hope, pity, justness, righteousness, rightfulness etc. – I’m sure most Jedi regretted taking a life and saw it only as a last resort, but if they had reached the conclusion that there was no other way out they did not hesitate to do their duty.

The Jedi did the best they could to spare as many innocent lives as possible. The CIS? As far as I know the Jedi never used civilians as living shields, used civilians them to test new destructive weapons, or developed biological weapons which were intended to be used on civilians as well.

Maybe at the bottom of the hierarchy. Unless it’s written or personally approved of by Lucas it’s merely an author’s take on what may have taken place.

Luke chose to become a Jedi and thus had a responsibility to the galaxy – of cause they were pushing him to do what was necessary to bring an end to the oppression of the Sith. If a man decides to become a police officer don’t we expect him to do his duty and arrest a mass-murderer, even though that person happens to be his father, and even though he is guaranteed to receive death penalty?

As I said, if Obi-Wan had not been pushed so far past his breaking point, he would likely have put an end to Anakin then.

No, Obi-Wan and Yoda’s version would be Luke accepting that to save himself, his friends, his sister, and countless of innocent lives then Vader and Palpatine had to be destroyed. If Luke had accepted that, there is no reason why he should fall to the Dark side.

It was attachment that made Anakin fall to the Dark side to begin with, so attachment, apparently, is a two-way street. The difference is that the PT Jedi knew attachment could lead to the Dark side but they didn’t know it could be used to bring anyone back from it as well.

And Sidious won because the Jedi had become too complacent which enabled Palpatine to play them and outsmart them. Allowing attachment would not have stopped Order 66 from happening.

 

Attachment led Anakin to the dark side, *love* brought him back.

The PT Jedi were more than right to discourage any and all attachment - and then decided to take it a step further encouraging all forms of love to be kept at a strict minimum - they weighed the risk and reward and felt the risk was just too high as it is very difficult to practice love with minimal attachment and for ones with such power and time consuming duty - it's just better all around to discourage it. I think they were right, the way I interpret it but at the same time true love is a very powerful thing and could be a great strength for the light and they sorely needed that in their darkest hour. There's no right answer.

 

To add to that: The Deathwatch was already not far behind Obi-Wan and Satine. Those missiles still would have hit the Twilight even if Anakin took off the second they hit the ramp. Wasn't there even a (much more modern and in good repair) Mandalorian ship that later got hit with those same missiles despite already being in the air? If they couldn't avoid it, how could the Twilight?

 

I will do it, to me, give people false hope is the worst.

Of course, he was missing a father and now he was told someone killed his father, how could he not hate him? All these increased the hate probably but it added a bit as well.

Yes but he still loves Padme and regret for what he did later. That does not contradict the point.

I will look carefully about why did he fall. Nor would I push his son to do the job if anger and hate is what caused his fall in the first place unless I want him to see his son's fall for revenge.

How? Don't you feel unrealistic when you say it? Especially if you look at what Luke felt about it? He's not machine, he's human and he only took the Jedi training for a few years, even Obi Wan could no do it why would he be able to do it by not turning to the Dark Side? He was angered when Vader told him to turn his sister, he wanted to protect her and you see how close he was to the Dark Side.

From what we see, he did feel a bit of it.

Did Obi Wan tell him the fact in EP IV? He wants a father and he was told some bad guy took his father from him, how is it not going to create hate? Luke later knew it and still thought there is good in his abusive father.

And he's wrong, only Sith deal with absolutes? Not the case.

So as a long trained Jedi he was still overwhelmed by emotion, how could Luke do it?

And bring order is protecting these lives from chaos, especially Traya wants to destroy the Force to end the conflict. Dooku also wanted to build a better order than the corrupted republic, which could not protect his people or even the Jedi well.

Not saying Jedi are as bad as Sith, but the PT Jedi went too extreme so at some point they could as bad as Sith, the Sith exposed these weaknesses and caused their downfall.

We are not talking about who's more evil, but the Jedi does not always do good, and they don't have the right to judge what is good or evil.

All of them are.

No place said Jedi should sacrifice everything for the "greater good". Even police officer and judge have to avoid the case if it's their relatives, it's in the law. So even Obi Wan could not do such thing but Luke could? And how close was Luke to the Dark Side when he wanted to protect his sister?

Yes, so they went too extreme so they failed, the novel wrote clearly of it. Sidious also used the weakness of the Jedi, even Yoda admitted it to Qui Gon in the end.




So the episode is out, I guess it's meaningless to argue more of PT Jedi's case since it's written clear and proved by fact they are wrong. Enjoy the episode and we can discuss about it.

 

It took quite a while for them to shoot out the rockets. In the book it's clear that their blaster could not hurt the ship, and with the weapon activated a few sooner they could take out a few more Death Watch. Obi Wan could also deflect a few rockets if Anakin was flying it. That Mandalorian ship could not fly high, once Twilight flew high enough they could not catch it. That's why Maul let them shot it down.

Overall it would certainly increase the chance of Satine to be rescued if Anakin went with them, he could not make it 100% but surely is a good asset to the mission, why not bring him?

 

Anakin could be busy. He is a general after all.

I more interested in why Obi-wan did not detect Palps using the dark side while crush the brothers.

 

Obi-Wan couldn't deflect the rockets during any of his previous encounter. He had to jump down an elevator shaft.

The Twilight would have most likely been hit long before it was out of the rockets range. Unless there's more than one model of Mandalorian ship that looks exactly the same, they are seen flying through space.

My assumption was his emotion over the loss of Satine and all of the other fighting going on around Mandalore. Hopefully they will expand upon how Sidious took care of Maul and Savage with out being suspected in a future episode.

 

Anakin was busy creating Luke and Leia (it can't be easy to make twins!) and fighting off separatist droids at the same time, with one hand behind his back.

If he had gone to Mandalore, perhaps we would have no OT.

 

He could try, we saw Jedi do it. If they are quick enough they won't be able to shoot it out.

Not if it could start quickly and shot back a few Death Watch troopers. I watched it again, they took at least 1 minute from they got out until the rocket was shot out, that's quite long for such kind of situation. That Mandaloiran ship is flying through the buildings, it could not fly very high.

Also if Anakin was with them, Obi Wan could contact him to start the ship right after they got on the speeder through holo communicator.

And if we want to discuss, focus in 1 thread will be better.

 

Communications were blocked. So even if Obi-Wan did take Anakin with him and Anakin remained on the ship, he wouldn't have been able to contact him and told him to warm up the ship.

 

It was blocked with the outer world, not inside the planet. The Death Watch and Bo-Katan's Night Owls could still communicate with each others.

 

No he wasn’t missing his father he missed a father figure. He never knew his father and for all he knew, his father could have been a cold and abusive a*****l. Hate is a very strong emotion, and if Luke hated Vader for killing his father I’m certain Obi-Wan or Yoda would have raised that issue with Luke at some time. Yoda says there is much anger in Luke – not hate.

Yes but he still loves Padme and regret for what he did later. That does not contradict the point.

I doubt you would give a damn about a murderer’s motivation if you came home to find your family slaughtered. But if you really think cold-blooded murder of innocent people can in any way be justified I think it’s safe to say that we have reached an impasse.

Not at all. As I said, it is possible for some people to be selfless. Also I’m fairly sure if Leia had been in Luke’s stead she would have approach the situation like a Jedi and done what she had to do to put a stop to the killing – even killing her biological father and not turn to the Dark side while doing it of it, because she knew almost better than anyone what Vader was capable of and that his continued survival would put more lives at risk.

It was thanks to Obi-Wan that Luke knew his father was once a good person – a person worth fighting for. If Obi-Wan wanted Luke to hate his father he would have told him his father was and always had been a monster.

Well, fortunately for everyone Luke, unlike teenagers, is better at rationalizing and rarely have/can handle feelings in the extreme ends of the spectre.

You cannot compare the circumstances surrounding Obi-Wan and Luke. Luke did not experience his entire world come crashing down around him, he did not experience being shoot down by his own men, he did not see his entire family lie slaughtered in his home, he did not see the person he loved as a brother turn to evil, commit mass-murder on innocent people and agree to establish a ruthless dictatorship – and all within a day or so. And Luke was not physically and emotionally pushed beyond his limits when he faced Vader.

The means does not always justify the goal. Dooku had no qualms about help start a war that cost countless of innocent lives to get what he wanted – you don’t protect people by killing them. And protecting the Jedi? Oh please, he knew Palpatine planned to wipe them out.

I would like to know how disbanding the rule of ‘no attachement’ could have prevented Order 66.

LOL – that is the funniest things I have read I a long time!

“The Jedi use their power for good. The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others.” Anakin Skywalker, RotS.

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." Obi-Wan Kenobi, ANH

But if the police officer happens to be the only one in the vicinity to make the arrest, you still expect him to do his duty. Just as Luke was the only Force-user in the galaxy who stood a chance at defeating the Sith due to his strength in the Force.

Luke was close to the Dark side because he allowed Palpatine and especially Vader’s words to get to him.

 

A positive Obi-Wan post! Something this thread desperately needs at this point

Yes, that was a relief. Just a shame the episode was so rushed - the plot could easily have filled out two episodes (I really wish TCW-crew were better at prioritizing the different storylines).

 

Oh yeah, Luke never knew his father, but he knew the feeling of missing a father. And when he was told someone took his father from him. Why wouldn't he hate this guy?

Anger leads to hate, that's what Yoda was talking about.

No, I am not good enough to believe there is good in him, but I'm also not that low to use his son to kill him and thinking his son would make it without anger and hate. Nor would I want to create a younger and stronger murderer for his boss this way.

It's not selfless, it's cold blood, Leia was such a headstrong person in the movie era, her type is quite easy to fall to the Dark Side. There are quite a few examples of it in EU. Not to say she hated Vader for partly responsible to destroy her planet. Obi Wan also knew it but he could not do it, now are you saying Leia, who was only like 25 at that time and never took any Jedi training could make it? Pls no offense, but it's just not realistic.

And he was telling the lie of his father was the murderer of his father, how is it not to make Luke hate his father Vader?

Yes Obi Wan experienced so much but he still could not make the blow, why could Luke do it when he said he has hope in his father?

Yes you do, sadly. In real world weapon is also what used to keep peace, to create a new order it's necessary to have blood sometimes. Also, does use some boy to kill his own father a good way to do simply because the "greater good"?

He decided to leave the order before he knew Palpatine is a Sith.

Anakin won't cut off Mace Windu's hands?

Too bad that's not all in the real history of the galaxy, and Anakin changed his idea later.

What only one? Who said only Luke could kill Vader? Even Han almost made it in EP IV.

 

I prefer peace, but peace require power to ensure, the tragedy of Mandaloirans in season kinda proved it.