Clone Wars *Official* Obi-Wan in TCW Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Also I checked both the novel and this episode, where did Maul say he's going to kill Satine for sure before he was enrage by Obi Wan?

Which line indicated he already decided to kill her? Sure he would torture her to hurt Obi Wan, but I don't see him would kill her right there before he was enraged.

So if Obi-Wan had accepted Anakin's help Satine would have lived. Right.

Considering that scene was cut and never fully animated, we can use the line that Anakin never offered his help. Ergo this whole argument is pointless since Anakin didn't feature at all. If Anakin had featured in the episode @Slowpokeking then you may have a point, but considering that scene was cut for time and not fully animated then it didn't happen. TV-canon is higher then book-canon.

Also I'd be willing to bet that Anakin wouldn't have been able to get the Twilight away fast enough before the commandos shot it down and then Maul would have killed Anakin as well to just get back at Obi-Wan - which actually would be a good thing for the galaxy considering all the heinous crimes he commits. Even with Anakin's help, they wouldn't have succeeded. Satine and Anakin would have been killed.

I already quoted it.

"It was I who languished for years thinking of nothing but you, nothing but this moment."

And then he kills her.

The implication that he killed her solely because Obi-Wan made him mad is ridiculous.

"Oh, I wasn't going to kill her, but now that you've made me mad, I've changed my mind".

Nope.

Your insistence that Obi-Wan "enraged" him itself is pretty pointless, since he's been nonstop pissed at Obi-Wan for ten years.

Really, the only way it is Obi-Wan's "fault" that Satine died was that Maul knew he cared for her, and so Maul killed her to make Obi-Wan suffer. That's it. Maul says as much. So, I guess that it's Obi-Wan's fault that he didn't his entire life living as a hermit. How dare he form personal connections that the villains can take advantage of!

No, I’m saying it depends on the circumstances.

If Luke had been younger that might have been the case, but if it required no more than that to create hate in Luke I think both Obi-Wan and Yoda would have declared him too unstable and too dangerous to become a Jedi and instead placed their hope on Leia.

And if you look at Luke’s reaction to Obi-Wan’s revelation, there is noting to indicate that he felt hate.

Yoda never came into close contact with Vader. And unlike a trained Force-user, Luke was an open book to him. So yes, I’m quite certain Yoda would have felt hate in Luke – especially considering he would have looked extra hard for such emotions.

“Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor.” Yoda, ESB

Yoda and Obi-Wan both tried and failed. As soon as Luke and Leia were born Yoda and Obi-Wan recognised their importance:

“The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him.” Obi-Wan, RotJ.

They weren’t. They were decided a long way back when societies agreed that murder and enslavement was wrong. It’s impossible to say exactly when, but those values were later reinforced when the Republic was founded.

Yes, just like Luke, she may have let Palpatine and Vader’s words get to her, but that is besides the point, which is that some people can kill other people not out of hate, but to save innocent lives. Most of the people who tried to assassinate Hitler did it because they knew that as long as Hitler lived more lives would be lost.

Yes, because it is hard to feel complex emotions when one is in agony – and having your hand “burned” off would be pure agony.

As long as it’s not explained in the movie it’s open to interpretation.

And if you would actually bother to read what I have written, you would realise that Luke’s situation and Obi-Wan situations cannot be compared.

No, they just wanted the Sith destroyed so that peace could return to the galaxy and the Force could become balanced.

It’s Lucas’s creation, and therefore only something made by Lucas tells the true story. Everything else - other types of canon (T, C, S, N) - can be overruled. Therefore your EU are essentially no more than suggestions made by authors – their personal version of what could have taken place.
All that really matters to me is Lucas’ version of events. End of story. If you want to discuss the EU, then you should go to EU-threads.

No, Luke proved them right. Through his actions the Sith were destroyed.

And it was after he was enraged, I already point out.

Seriously think about it, before he was rescued by the Death Watch he didn't even know who Satine is, how would he decide to kill her for years?

Yes he's going to hurt Obi Wan, but that does not mean he was going to kill Satine right way.

Please tell me when did Maul say "I am going to kill the Duchess" before he was enraged?

It is still canon, like I said about some of the deleted scenes in the movie, this part didn't contradict with the cartoon, it gave more information.

Anakin would start to fly it up and activate the weapons of the ship right after Obi Wan got Satine out and communicate with him, there were only 5-6 Death Watch and they didn't shoot rockets before Maul ordered them, too. Maul's plan was also for Obi Wan to come alone.

*sigh*

He was referring to the fact that he was thinking about getting revenge on Obi-Wan for years. He wanted to make him suffer. It was learning about Satine that became the tool to fulfill his vengeance and his goal of achieving this long-term desire.

Yes we know he wants to take revenge, but that does not mean he would kill Satine so quickly for sure, maybe torture her for a long while or break her or something else, just like he didn't kill Obi Wan but thought about something more sinister when he had several chances to do so. If he just wanted to kill Satine there he would not choke her for so long but didn't break her neck. Sure that's not good for Satine as well, but at least it would buy more time and there would be hope, just like Obi Wan got rescued twice. What if in the end of season 4, someone was there to keep taunt Maul until he went enraged and killed Obi Wan? Can we say "He surely hates Obi Wan(100% true) so he's going to kill him anyway"

Obi-Wan is awesome

So was Obi-Wan given permission by the Jedi Council to go alone to Mandalore, or did Obi-Wan defy the Council and go anyway to save Satine?

Good luck guys. I'm done here. The ad nauseum repetition of the same points in several threads over several days and the refusal to even acknowledge other points of view (not concede to or adopt--acknowledge) is looking too suspiciously like troll spamming.

As far as I'm concerned, if Slowpokeking wants to continue believing that Obi-Wan is responsible for Satine's death, Anakin's fall, Count Dooku's ascent to power, Jedi deaths on Geonosis, the existence of Boba Fett, Alderaan's destruction, the Empire's discovery of Hoth, the construction of the second Death Star, and every massacre committed by the Tusken Raiders--he can. Obviously engaging him on this subject is a pointless waste of time.

He disobeyed the council.

Luke was like 18 or 19 in EP IV, that's not some age who will not leave hate in their heart, if some bad guy killed their father, who they rally missed. That's not dangerous, not unstable, but human's nature. And we have to look at his reaction at Vader, not Obi Wan.

His Force Ghost was there watching the fight on Death Star II.

No, Obi Wan defeated Anakin, if he had no problem on finishing him why didn't he try it?

Which is not the case, Han almost got Vader in EP IV, the badly injured Vader killed Sidious. Please we don't look at quote but fact.

The Jedi did quite a few murder and enslavement in their history.

Some people can kill their relatives without hate? Surely not Luke and Leia and if you push them to do so it will only be their downfall.

He clearly showed hate in his words of this topic.

The situation is: Luke cannot make himself kill his father without being consumed by hate, it's the fact.

Only their way will work, isn't it?

Fine, but seriously, if you want to know this better, it's better to look at EU.

Luke didn't follow what they told him to do, he didn't kill Vader and not the Emperor like they said.

Ok can we discuss about the actual episode now?

If we're going to play the blame game of whose fault it is that Satine died, let's put it in a ranking from most responsible to least responsible.

1. Darth Maul - Duh

2. Satine - Yes, Satine! Like I have said before, I love Satine, I really do, but she is largely responsible for her own death. She was an extremist. A pacifist extremist. She did nothing to defend her rule because she didn't want to rely on violence. Obi-Wan called it in Season 2. Satine said: Even extremists can be reasoned with! Obi-Wan said: Perhaps, if one could be heard over the clanking of their battle droids! Satine called him sarcastic and Obi-Wan countered with: "The delusions of a dreamer!" That's it! She was such an idealist dreamer that she had developed a delusional view of the world. Sure didn't seem like she could reason with Maul after she was thrown in the most insecure prison in the galaxy cell. This doesn't mean that she "got what she deserved" or anything like that, it just means reality caught up with her. It was bound to happen.

3. Pre Vizsla - For striking up a deal with the Sith and bringing Maul and Savage to Mandalore.

4. Obi-Wan - For not bringing Anakin along, even though he had no clue the Sith were there and for being Maul's enemy.

5. The Jedi Council - For not intervening due to Mandalore's neutrality.

6. The Pykes/Black Sun - For their role in Mandalore's demise.

6. "The Will of the Force"/Flying Spaghetti Monster

As you can see, Obi-Wan played a very small role in Satine's death and most factors were out of his control. His largest role in her death was the fact that he was Obi-Wan and Maul wanted revenge.

Yes, she was portrayed like an idiot in season.

Again the Sith makes no difference there. And he enraged Maul to kill Satine right there.

He didn't make it when he could make it without quite tiny damage on his discipline. It's not like he was Satine's enemy like Maul or Viszla, but he is her friend if not fair to say boyfriend, and he still wasn't willing to sacrifice just a small part of his moral to save her or even give her a bit more time to live. Maul and Viszla are her enemies and there is no reason to expect them to do anything good, but Obi Wan is different. That's what makes me pissed off.

Hell, why would the Jedi/Republic want to intervene anyways? They're fighting a galactic war against an enemy who outnumbers them like 10,000 to 1! (Lol to the idiot who thought 3 million ground troops is enough to fight a planetary scale war, let alone a galaxy-sized one. They should just be like "Sorry dude, you chose neutrality, and we don't have the resources to help you with your coup. The Jedi/Republic are free of blame IMO, at least from a realpolitik standpoint.

And yeah, Satine was too idealistic for her own good. Ultimately I'd say that got her killed, just from reality catching up to her as you said.

The Mandalorians are a very powerful faction, especially in military forces and they joined the Sith to against the Republic in most of the big wars in history. They also love war so they could join the CIS in the future(They did in current canon). When such conflict happened in them, the Jedi and the Republic should firstly investigate to see what happened then make a decision.

Intervention in a neutral system is a big no-no. BIG no-no. Obi-Wan didn't go as a representative of the Council at least partially for that reason (partial as the Council rightly surmised they had no jurisdiction, partially because he "had to go" and went on his own).

For Force's sake, Slowpokeing, Obi-Wan keeping his mouth shut at such times is just not something Obi-Wan can do. He's a talker. Always has been, always will be. It's such a part of him that I doubt he was thinking, "Shut up, Kenobi, he might kill her a minute earlier than planned" or "Play along, pretend to get mad although he'll sense you are not and kill her anyway a minute before planned."

You're so focused on what you want Kenobi to do that you can't see he can only behave as Kenobi behaves. And really, *even* if you're right that Obi-Wan should have "played along" leading to Maul "playing along" leading to Satine living a bit longer - what the heck did you expect to happen within those few additional moments? Do you really think he would have grinned and said, "Ok, I'll kill her later - think on that - now throw them both back into the cells"?

As for bringing Anakin: in hindsight he might have wished to have had backup. There's probably a teeny tiny chance that Anakin would have saved the day and also a teeny tiny chance that rush-in-where-even-Jedi-fear-to-rush-in might have made things worse.

If that makes you feel vindicated that someone "agrees" that Obi-Wan's chances of saving Satine *might* have been better with Anakin's help, then feel free to believe so. I will concede that having Anakin along *may* have made a difference (or it may not have). And no, most emphatically no, having Anakin sitting in the ship with it all prepped and ready to go would not have made much difference in the failed fly-away.

In the long run, Obi-Wan's chances *may* have been better with a whole lot of didn't happens.

You're getting nowhere with your 20/20 hindsight because the rest of us are looking at it from Obi-Wan's "present" and even then, 20/20 hindsight doesn't allow one to see what did not happen or to accurately predict what would have happened.

Obi-Wan, in his capacity as Jedi, is a member of the Republican military. Any such "investigation" of a neutral star system would be considered espionage, and since Obi-Wan is a military asset, an invasion.

I think that the Republic would be justified in wanting to not invade a sovereign nation, especially one that is supposedly so militarily powerful, when it's already fighting a war with another. (Hell, if it were Death Watch who'd taken over and not an ex-Sith Lord, they'd actually be justified in opening up diplomatic negotiations with Pre Visla instead of sending in a commando team to effect a counter-coup.)

Or, Palps secretly rubs his hands together at a Jedi intervening in a neutral planet's "affairs," says he'll disagree with any senator who wishes to "censure Obi-Wan (or the Order?)" while planting seeds that the Jedi (individual and/or Order) can't be trusted to mind their own business or somesuch.

The Order will have to stand behind Obi-Wan, possibly contributing to the growing unpopularity of the Order, or hang Obi-Wan out to dry.

Sadly, though TCW almost always avoids consequences (Padme trading Grievous for Anakin, Krell, etc.) I fully expect that because this is Filoni's "burden boy" there are going to be a hell of a lot of consequences falling on Obi-Wan's head.

Yeah, I meant that the Republic shouldn't have bothered back then. Now they have every reason to, since, well, Sith Lord. It could be called unintended consequences, but Bo-Katan at least knows what will happen, so it's more like the price of doing business. I like her, so I hope she can prepare ahead to the day they can throw these aruetii off Mando soils. Or at least make somewhat a somewhat lenient arrangement with Palpatine (Mando supercommando volunteers for the Republic cause?).

Well now you see why I don't like him and why do I blame him so much on this case? He won't sacrifice his discipline, his way, even when his "girlfriend"'s life could end if he keeps it. It's not like I'm asking him to change his way for Satine for his whole life, but just for this sake. He could still be a great Jedi if he could make some change temporarily on this case, but if life is lost nothing can get it back. What is love? Love is about sacrifice, including your discipline sometimes. He didn't bring Anakin also because of this. To me, it's quite selfish if someone could not change their way temporarily to save their loved ones' life. It's not like I agree with Anakin's way, willing to betray anyone and do all the horrible things to save someone he loves, they both are too extreme and both caused tragedy.

Well if Maul want to get her killed she would be dead in secs after he started to choke her, and Maul was saying to lure Obi Wan to the Dark Side, so it's most likely he could not kill her so soon, but maybe torture her for a while, let Obi Wan slowly succumb then do it. He also never said I guess there indeed is chance they he would not kill her right way, but Obi Wan directly enraged him rather than try to fight for the chance. I really think he didn't put her life before his way in that moment.

It's going to increase the chance overall.

Also from what Obi Wan knew before he left, Satine was in great danger, the situation was much worse than before, Mandlore was taken by someone who oppose Satine, there are crime families behind. From the goal of "Save her", there really is no reason to refuse some great friend's help. Obi Wan refused because he could not put other stuff even in this moment. So, it's not just "can they make it or not" but "did he try his best, at least put his pride, his discipline aside to save her".

Put your benefit before others' life is selfish, put your discipline before others' life is another way of selfishness as well. I know where did that come from, the PT Jedi discipline. In this case, we saw Obi Wan knew it's not right and defy the council to save Satine, but he still could not put it totally behind him for once when her life is in danger, which is really sad. I hope he could make it, not like Qui Gon, just for this case, but he didn't. It's sad for both him and Satine.