****OFFICIAL Qui-Gon Jinn Discussion thread ****

I think it's wise to remember that Obi first crossed over from the beyond as a bodiless voice. Perhaps it happens in stages, and Qui just hasn't reached that ability yet, as he hadn't had reason as of yet to wish to interfere.

 

It's taken him ten years, but at least he has attained his consciousness even after death. Obi-Wan, and Yoda were able to appear because they had already been preparing themselves for death or they had already submitted themselves in someway to the Force. Yoda appeared to Luke on Endor hours or maybe a day after he died. After Kenobi was cut down on the DeathStar by Vader, he appeared to Luke as a disembodied voice. Then three years later at Hoth, he appeared before Luke in spirit form.

I was also considering that people appearing to Luke after they had already died was a sign that he was growing stronger in the Force. That was the impression I used to be under. It may not even have anything to do with that.

Qui-Gon seems to be there in the villiage of the sandpeople that night Anakin went on the slaughter. Perhaps he can appear to anyone he chooses, but he felt that he would try to prevent Anakin to stop by shouting his voice. Also another thing that could have happened was Anakin's anger caused a great, great disturbance in the Force enough to awaken Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

Hi peeps, I`m new to this board and thought i`d throw in my 2 cents worth.

The voiceover part is definatly QG saying "Anakin, Anakin". But I saw an unofficial trailer ages ago that had Anakin screaming out "NOOOOOOOOOO!" and it looked like it was in a tuskan raider tent. Seeing as its not in the movie it must have been cut.

So I reckon when Anakin gets that mean ass look on his face QG tries to talk to him, knowing what is about to happen. Then Anakin shouts and tells him where to shove his advice.

 

In ESB Obi says that Yoda was his master no Qui-gon, so why didnt Lucas keep with continuity for TPM?

 

Worth noting that Obi Wan first comes back as a voice (in ANH) before he comes back as a blue ghost (ESB.)

 

It hasn`t been said in the films when Obi-Wan became a jedi master. When Qui-gon died maybe Yoda took over till obi-wan was ready for the trials. Either that or Lucas is making it up as he goes along

Doesn`t everyone cal Yoda master anyway, regardless of rank?

 

The news that Dooku taught Qui-Gon Jinn interested me. I think
it tells us something useful about Qui-Gon Jinn.

Dooku turned to the Dark Side, so it's questionable if his heart
was ever wholly in the right place. Maybe he was just a highly
competent Jedi who followed all the rules, but didn't really care
for people deep down. This seems credible, because Dooku is a
very deceitful guy.

If so, that seems to me to be a good reason why Qui-Gon Jinn
would develop as a man who felt a tension between following
his heart and following his superiors.

I don't mean that Qui-Gon Jinn sensed Dooku was a bad guy. I
only mean he could not respond to Dooku as one perfectly
straightforward guy to another. When Qui-Gon Jinn was
frustrated with the Jedi for not doing what seemed to Qui-Gon
Jinn to be "good stuff", Dooku would have been in a bad
position to reassure him that in the long run the rules served a
higher compassion. Coming from Dooku, that sort of thing could
only be more smooth recitations of the party line, with no heart
behind them.

Following your heart seems to have a high status in Star Wars.
For example, Senator Amidals remains on the landing platform,
a sitting duck for a follow-up assassination attempt, because she
cares about her decoy. We see that she's doing the wrong thing,
but that she's the right kind of person. Such mistakes are
inevitable and forgivable, from people whose hearts are in the
right place. That is how Star Wars morality works. (And on this,
I agree with it.)

I think Qui-Gon Jinn exemplifies that fallible good-heartedness
at the Jedi level. This makes him a very attractive character.

 

I don't think Qui-Gon Jinn was ever in league with the Sith, or
that Dooku could have recruited him. I have three reasons for
this belief:

* The Sith have nothing to offer Qui-Gon Jinn. He doesn't want
power. He's not angry. He doesn't want revenge. Etcetera. He
just likes to help people, and he's already got that job.

* Qui-Gon Jinn couldn't get away with it if he wanted to. Obi-
Wan Kenobi was more perceptive than he was. (If you want to
see an expert deciever in action, albeit in a good cause, look at
what Obi-Wan Kenobi did to Luke.) Also, Qui-Gon Jinn doesn't
show the skills he would need for effective treachery. he stands
in front of the Jedi Council and pushes ideas that they want
nothing to do with. That's suicidal behaviour if he feared
having his motives questioned. Great deceivers like Palpatine
and Dooku work with the preconceptions of their victims rather
than antagonising them.

* Since Qui-Gon Jinn was a rebel, and strongly inclined to go his
own way, it's doubtful if Dooku could talk him into anything.

Obi-Wan Kenobi is disturbed by what Dooku says in general, and
Yoda more or less tells him: "Forget it, kid. He's just messing
with your head." I think that's exactly right.

 

Bluetuna is onto something here. The insight provided me with a grand answer to our question. A JEDI has to die peacefully in order to come back as a spirit.

Think about it, Obi-Wan knew he could leave in peace once he saw that Luke got a glimpse of Darth Vader, Yoda was of age, and Anakin Skywalker (Darth without Helmet) died of natural causes since his life-support system was damaged, and he was not in his meditation chamber, which would have allowed him to breathe without his helmet.

Despite what you all may think, I believe Ben passed on seconds before Vader could swing on him. Vader saw Ben fading away and thought he was stiking down someone who was still alive, but Obi-Wan was already in process of disappearing just like Yoda.

How does that sound. That is the only explanation I have that will allow me to rest since GL won't explain to anyone.


Well, remember that in ANH, after Vader strikes down Obi-Wan, he looks perplexed at the fallen cloak, and starts to stomp around on top of it, looking for the body.

Vader had no idea that Jedi could just disappear like that.
-----signature-----

http://www.bleutuna.com | http://gamefellas.com | http://whisperwire.com
"It's all in my head, the rest is just scribbling and bibbling, bibbling and scribbling.

 

"Qui-Gon definitely would've joined his master against the Republic and Sidious, but he probably wouldn't have ever turned, and thus, Dooku probably would have killed him at some point. Because there's no way Qui-Gon could have handled Dooku after the way he got his ass kicked against Maul."

Now with the whole thing of dooku vs quigon, i believe that quigon wouldnt get his ass kicked, as being his apprentence would mean quigon is fammiliar with his master's fighting style and know what to do. with maul, he had (assumingly) never fought a sith before, so hes just wingin it untill he gets the feel of it, and didnt get it in time.

now on the subject of the anakin anakin nooo, this may have something to do with how when obi-wan died, luke didnt actually SEE obi's spirit till ESB, but he could hear obi-wan within a minute of obi's death. this could just be something that GL decided to do differently in ESB or it could be a plot point. but it could mean something.

 

Check out PAGE 6 or 7 "Disappearing Jedi"

My obligatory post on the subject?

>>>> Has anyone considered the fact that disappearing at death and retaining identity after death may not be at all connected?

That?s what I think, and here?s why:

Jedi Ghosts



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When Star Wars became a hit and I had a chance to make the other movies, I had to figure out a way to bring Ben back, but a lot of issues he had to deal with were carried by Yoda. In a sense, I combined Yoda with the spirit of Ben. I wanted Ben to have some kind of influence, but I didn?t want it to be a direct influence where he could help Luke. So Ben has managed to keep his identity after he became one with the Force. One of the things he was doing on Tatooine besides watching over Luke was learning how to keep his identity after he became part of the Force.

?George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
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Lucas says that Ben managed to keep his identity after becoming one with the Force, which implies that every Jedi becomes one with the Force when they die. What?s more, it seems every life form becomes one with the Force upon death:



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. . . The Force was discussed in great detail. In the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] George Lucas defined the Force as follows: The act of living generates a force field, an energy. That energy surrounds us; when we die, that energy joins with all the other energy. . . . We are part of the Force because we generate the power that makes the Force live. When we die, we become part of that Force, so we never really die; we continue as part of the Force.

?Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
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Here you have the indication that as far back as the story meetings for TESB (which took place in November 1977) that George fleshed out the concept of the Living Force?a Force that ?grows? and ?lives? as a result of Life in the Star wars universe. And according to TPM?s screenplay, Qui-Gon became one with the Force:



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He [Qui-Gon] is one with the Force, Anakin? You must let go.

?Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
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So just like every other life form, apparently every Jedi dies and becomes one with the Force. Only a few, however, know how to come back as a spirit. Kenobi, apparently, is one of the privileged:



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One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere in between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don?t ever get to see how he does it, but the idea of retaining your identity after you?ve passed on is something that Ben learned as a Jedi.

?George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
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Taken literally, the above passage maintains that Yoda informs Obi-Wan that it is possible not to lose all identity after becoming one with the Force. And during the many years Kenobi lives in isolation on Tatooine, he learns how to retain his identity. Abstractly understood, however, it?s possible that Obi-Wan picks up this discipline from Qui-Gon, since Qui-Gon is of Yoda?s direct Jedi lineage. What I mean is, because Dooku was Yoda?s Padawan, Yoda could have passed the knowledge of retaining one?s identity on to Dooku, and Dooku could?ve passed this knowledge on to Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon said in T

 

Qui-Gon's ghost remaining with Obi-Wan in his hutt on tatooine? That seems too out there. It sounds like a plot from a droid and ewoks hour episode.

 

After seeing Attack of the Clones a few times, I remembered reading somewhere that Epsode II would reveal why Qui-Gon didn't disappear when he died, unlike Obi-Wan and Yoda, or became a ghost unlike Obi-Wan, Yoda, or Anakin. However, seeing it last night, I was struck when Anakin said that someday maybe he could stop people from dying. Could he have done something that allowed remaining Jedi to become ghosts when they die, unlike Qui-Gon?

 

[I offer the following not as definitive proof, but merely as another piece in the puzzle. Certainly we know that George has reserved the right to change his mind in the past!]

In THE ANNOTATED SCREENPLAYS, Lucas, being interviewed by the book's author/editor, says:

"One of the things that will never get explained in the films is how Ben was able to retain his identity, because it happened somewhere in between the third and fourth movies. I set up that this is a discipline that he learned from Yoda; Yoda told him how to do that. We don't ever get to see how he does it, but the idea of retaining your identity after you've passed on is something Ben learned as a Jedi."

So, there you go. Maybe this helps a little, maybe it only confuses things; maybe someone has mentioned it before. But there it is!

 

Qui-Gon also knows how to retain his identidty. Remeber him yelling Anakin nooo! in AOTC??? Maybe we will see him in spirit form yelling to anakin in the DVD version.

 

I think whoever said that it was Luke becoming stronger in the Force could be on the right track.


I have wondered a few times myself if it was Yoda's strength in the Force, not Qui-Gon's, that allowed him to hear Qui-Gon's voice during his meditation.

 

Hey Vortigern,

What's the date on that. It may make a difference because at one point GL did say that it WOULD get explained. It would help if you could find out, thanks.

 

"I think whoever said that it was Luke becoming stronger in the Force could be on the right track."


It was I in my above post.

That was the impression I used to be under. Although Luke started his training aboard Han Solo's ship, he already had strength in the Force without any training at all. So, when Ben was killed by Anakin on the DeathStar I, Luke was able to hear him immediately just after he died(Run, Luke, run!).

A lot has something to do with a Jedi being able to retain their consciousness after a phyiscal death with a combination of strength that another Jedi may have in the Force.

Now I'm going to talk a little Exanded Universe here, but when I read Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn nine years ago, I remember Luke Skywalker telling Artoo-Deetoo The following: You never knew, but right after Ben was cut down- back on the first DeathStar- I found out that I could sometimes hear his voice in the back of my mind. By the time the Alliance was driven to Hoth, I could see him to......And even right after the Battle of Endor, I was able to see not only Ben, but Yoda and my father too. Though the other two never spoke, and I never saw them again. My guess is that there's some way for a dying Jedi to- oh, I don't know; to somehow anchor himself to another Jedi who's close by.

When Anakin Skywalker is acting up in the Tuskin Raider's village, Qui-Gon Jinn hollers at him beyond the grave. Yoda, according to the AOTC novel, was able to hear Qui-Gon Jinn and he wasn't mistaken that it was Master Qui-Gon's voice. Yoda knew that it was Qui-Gon and Master Yoda wondered how Qui-Gon was able to retain his consciousness after death.


My guess is Qui-Gon Jinn, with his knowledge of the Living Force that no other Jedi ever talks about but him, is able to anchor himself to the Chosen One and perhaps to other Jedi who he has learned from and even taught via Obi-Wan, Master Yoda, and Anakin since they are the only other Jedi to retain consciousness after death. But in addition to this, I also suppose that one's strength in the Force could determine whether a Jedi can see and talk to a ghostly Jedi or not but that dead Jedi would have to be anchored to those particular living Jedi to make their continued existence known.

 

Gan-Jar-Tin, Ben tells Luke to go to Dagobah to find Yoda, the jedi master who instructed him. We all just assumed that meant that Yoda was his direct master. But, as seen in AOTC, Yoda instructs many younglings/initiates, and I'm sure that all the advice Yoda gives to the order in general would count as instruction.

 

up!

 

"And the card attached would say thank you for being a friend"

 

Some day I'll wish upon a star and wake up where the clouds are far behind meeee
Where troubles melt like lemondrops somewhere above the chimney tops thats where you'll find meeee...

Sooommme wheeeeeeere over the rainbow blue birds fly....birds flow over the rainbow, why then oh why can't Iiiiiiiiiiiiii..

 

I believe Anakin does find out how to stop people from dying. Yet, after he gets involved in the fight between Obi-Wan he has two choices

Summon the dark side of the force to gain immediate satisfaction. The ability to keep his physical form albeit a shadow of his former self

or

Choose the light side of the force. Become one with the force and re-join his mother...yet he wouldnt accomplish revenge. Something which he revels in as can be seen when he slays the Tusken Raiders.


In ANH when Obi-Wan disappears he prods his foot at Kenobis cloak as if to say "they DID it"
Then again, Obi-wan does say "I will become more powerful than you can possible imagine.
damn! hurry up george and finish episode 3! i want to see how this goes!

One thing to add.....I wouldnt put it past Lucas to add some sound bytes of Qui-Gonn to the original films. Remember he could film NEW sequences with darth vader because Hayden Christiensen or anyone else who's big and can walk upstraight could fill the suit...hmmmmmm.

 

Up

 

I think it's fairly simple, the whole disappering trick. They live in special times. Only Jedi that had a direct influence or were very close to the Chosen One (or in Luke's case the One that would push the Chosen One to complete the prophecy) could return and it was a trick they had to learn.

They could only come back to guide the Chosen One or his son so that the prophecy would be complete.

It's not a "Any Jedi can come back from the dead and talk to anyone". Which is why I'd bet money if Qui-Gon returns in Episode III, he'll be talking to Anakin again.