Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    The two Starks are different verisons of the same character, and the verison of him in the cartoon is another version as is the Ultimate Tony Stark. Doing that would mean Lucasfilm is making their movies and EU continuities seperate, which would be a big change from the way they are currently doing things, it also doesn't stop the EU from being stomped on, infact it probably facilitates it. It gives Lucas, Arndt, Kennedy, Abrams etc... basically a clean slate from which to work, they can shape and change their Jaina to what they need her to be, which is what I've been saying they will want to and need to give themselves.

    It would established that "Jaina IS the daughter of Han and Leia" but also established that novels and movies are completely seperate because Jaina in the novels is a Jedi Knight, Pilot, married to Jag and killed her twin while the movie Jaina is at hte start of Episode VII (for example, one way they could go) a politican and socialite, never had a brother, younger, and single.
    Last edited by fenton, Mar 27, 2013
  2. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    Not to mention Herbert.
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  3. jasman Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 1998
    star 4
    I defy anyone to continue reading EU crap after reading some really good sci fi. Read the Riverworld Trilogy by Phil Farmer, Ringworld by Larry Niven, the Foundation series by Asimov, Time Enough For Love or Stanger in a Strange Land by Heinlein, 2001: A Space Odyssey or Rendezvous with Rama by Clarke, or Dune by Frank Herbert, and you will see by comparison what kind of drivel and hack crap the EU "novels" are. :p
    Last edited by jasman, Mar 27, 2013
  4. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    I can't believe I'm saying this, but *choke* It's not nice to call the EU 'Hack Crap' - *gasp*



    [face_sick]


    [face_coffee]

    *rinses mouth* ;)

    Anyway, I'm sure people who read the EU also read other books - Not a big fan of a lot of true 'Science' fiction unless it's in bite sized chunks - like the Hugo winners - "Or All the Seas with Oysters" is a science fiction short story by Avram Davidson is an all time favorite...
    Last edited by DarthBreezy, Mar 27, 2013
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  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I switch back and forth between the two. I'd have probably never have read or even heard of Matthew Stover if it weren't for the ROTS novel and Traitor....and not discovering Acts Of Caine would have been a great pity.
    Robimus likes this.
  6. run_luke_run Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2004
    star 3
    I think it's the thirst for more Star Wars that drives the EU, not "good writing". Some of it is decent in a Harry Potter sense (Labyrinth of Evil, etc.), and some is just...well...dreadful.

    Much like no one expects top-caliber acting in a Star Wars film (at least I certainly do not...perhaps that will change under a new guard), I have a hard time believing people are reading the EU for the top-notch award-winning writing.

    I think it's just fun. I have not read much EU at all...maybe 2% of what's out there, but it's always been for one thing...fun, and I have to admit it's typically accomplished that, just like all 6 films have done for me.
    Last edited by run_luke_run, Mar 27, 2013
  7. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Star Wars to me is fun. I don't expect Class A movies or books. I want fun. Lightsabers, Starfighters, bounty hunters, smugglers, aliens, jedi, sith, other force users, etc. The Bantam era books for the most part aren't amazing but they were fun. They are extremely nostalgic for me.
  8. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    See, I'm not sure this is true. We might consider them the giants of SF history, but I think the literati tend to view a lot of them as not really being SF writers in the first place. I still think the film industry is a lot more accepting of the idea that "genre" works can be classics than literary criticism is.

    (Not that I think the EU would be considered classic anyway - although there's certainly some good and a couple of great authors in it).

    On another note, and related to some of the discussion above, I read somewhere once that a lot of the reason for why media tie-ins sell may not be so much the way that they appeal to established fanbases as it is the way that they fall into a category of pure "adventure" science fiction that has less original works written for it these days. There's certainly been a big upswing in both the quantity and quality of space operas released lately, but there's still a niche for stuff that's just - as Force Smuggler said - "fun" to be filled. I think the EU, and similar works like Star Trek novels (which have also undergone an upshot in quality lately, IMO) owe a lot of their success to it.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Mar 27, 2013
  9. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    This is kinda like guitar players in rock n roll vs "real" musicians. Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, and Eddie Van Halen are considered gods by their fans, but most musicians who are classically trained scoff at the thought of them because to them they do not play "serious" music.

    This is also the same type of mindset that prevents films like Star Wars from winning Best Picture at Oscar time.
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Mar 27, 2013
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  10. jedimikey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2012
    star 2
    Comparing apples to oranges, eh? Not convincing...why don't you compare Howard's "Conan" books to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings while you're at it?

    I've read all those books, plus thousands more, and I STILL enjoy my SW pulp fiction space opera. Niven's Ringworld is great, but I find most of Clarke's stuff to be pretty boring...don't forget that Heinlein also wrote Have Spacesuit, Will Travel...

    Apples to oranges...
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  11. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I'm fine with other SW fans embracing the EU, but I can't get into it. I've read five SW novels, and while they were OK they weren't compelling enough to make me want to go any further. Plus, the summaries I've read of a lot of the others let me know they just wouldn't be for me (IMO some of them just sound really silly).

    I never actually considered myself a fan of SF novels in general, but if some of those authors mentioned above (Arthur Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Philip K. Dick, H. G. Wells, Ray Bradbury, Aldous Huxley, George Orwell) are considered SF than I guess I am to a certain degree; some of their stuff is great, and miles above anything I've seen from the SW EU, to be honest.
  12. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I'm kinda curious how many actually consider Star Wars Science Fiction?

    It is really not menat to come across as such. Just look at what Lucas drew inspiration from to make the films in the first place, pulpy stuff like Flash Gordon and Spagetti Westerns. Religious mythos and things like Buhddism - More like Fantasy in Sci Fi trappings than the authors that are being mentioned.

    Even some of the most well recieved works, like Stover's stuff, have almost nothing to do with pure Science Fiction and are far more about the metaphisical mumbo jumbo Lucas himself seems to enjoy.

    Thats kinda like defying people to go back and watch a Star Wars film after watching films with top quality writing, brilliant dialog and amazing preformances. I mean I watched Hugo, that doesn't mean that I suddenly don't want to ever see a Men in Black film again.
    Last edited by Robimus, Mar 28, 2013
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  13. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Thats how the EU has always worked. His death would be changed, and the fact that he isn't in the next 40 plus books affects nothing. He's just not there, just like Aurra Sing isn't(well she is in one book, but you get the idea), or Bossk isn't. Same as how Boba Fett got adjusted.

    Again though, if they include a 73 year old Harrison Ford as Han Solo they will have to do that. Not Allana specifically of course, but in a general sense. They can't explain on screen everything that has gone in in these characters lives since 1983 without asking the veiwers to accept a few things. No one is going to believe that Han Solo sat around for thirty years doing nothing. That would be bad story telling.
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  14. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    "Chewie" just isn't there is a bad and laughable excuse, and if they want their continuity to have any credibilty at all, they'll restart it or seperate it from the movies rather then try to sell that to people.

    Its clear, Robimus, you don't understand storytelling, and this "SOMETHING had to happen between RotJ and Episode VII" is just a bad excuse for people, and extreme argument which hold zero weight because no one is saying NOTHING happens between the movies. Take Luke at the start of ANH. Clearly he lived 18 years worth of life on Tatoonie. He learned to fly and got pretty good at it, was friends with Biggs, heard stories (at least) about Crazy old Ben, learned to farm etc... He didn't just sit in his room for 18 years and wait for hte Jawa's to deliever R2 and 3PO. Between ANH and ESB Luke was clearly fighting with the Rebellion, became a commander, joined a fighter squad etc... Anakin and Obi-wan between TPM and AotC clearly did stuff in those 10 years, Anakin learned how to use the force, built a lightsaber, did things without telling Obi-wan because he could feel they'd work - "I hate it when he does that" - had some kind of adventures (they refer to them in passing) etc... But there is a huge difference between Obi-wan saying "I haven't felt you this tense since we fell into that nest of Gundarks" and Han saying something like "It was a blow to all of us, when your wife Mara, was killed by my son when he became a Sith, Luke". One statements just establishs that the characters in question have been travelling around and having adventures, the other says that THE main character got married and his wife was killed, which is something the audience would want to see and experience because of their investment in Luke as a character.

    BUT neither Luke or Anakin in the time before/between movies did major, story point, character defining things because those things are better shown on screen. Luke didn't lose his aunt and uncle (basically his parents) before ANH started, he didn't train with Yoda before ESB. Luke didn't have to kill Biggs evil twin brother to save Tatoonie. Anakin didn't marry Padme between movies or discover the clone army. You don't have major character defining moments like losing a wife or a son, or having a son turn to the dark side and your other child killing them, a major character die, the parent of a main character etc... die off screen and deal with it in a quick line of dialog or two. The set up for Episode VII to fill in the time between RotJ and EPisode VII will be largely uneventful when it comes to big, major events like that, and those events will happen on screen so the audience can see them and experience them. Han and Leia will probably a child/children, but they won't be heroes who played major roles in several wars/conflicts and turned into Sith, for example.

    People, many more people then the ones who read EU, like and are invested in the OT characters and they are going to go the theater to see their story/adventures continue, not have all these major events hinted at or briefly mentioned
    Last edited by fenton, Mar 28, 2013
  15. JediMara77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    You mean like rebuilding the Jedi Order, taking back the Galactic capital, defeating all the leftover Imperials, and starting a New Republic? Or will there be no Jedi in Episode VII and the Rebellion will still be on the run?
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  16. JediMara77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    Also, in regards to storytelling, characters with no background are boring.
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  17. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    All thats clear to me is that you don't understand how the Star Wars Expanded Universe has worked for the past two plus decades.

    You not liking how it worked is a non factor in this discussion.
    Last edited by Robimus, Mar 28, 2013
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  18. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    I love how fenton keeps pointing out how major thing cant happen off screen... you know, like Ahsoka. :p
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
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  19. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Did you even the post? Things will have happened, but not character defining moments. Obi-wan and Anakin feel into a nest of Gundarks between TPM and AotC, but Anakin didn't marry Padme. See the difference?

    I've read quite a bit of it and enjoyed some of it (some of the stuff is complete trash), but I also know that it won't factor in the new movies for the reasons I mentioned.
    Last edited by fenton, Mar 28, 2013
  20. JediMara77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yes, I read the post. I just find your definition of character defining the moments a little confusing, since I'd consider Luke rebuilding the Jedi Order, as well as Han and Leia getting married and having kids, to be pretty character defining.
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  21. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    How are Luke rebuilding the Jedi Order, Han and Leia getting married and having kids, and then Luke getting married and having a kid not character defining moments? You can't keep using your own examples and moving the goalposts when someone points out a matching instance in the Expanded Universe.
  22. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Had someone offered me the chance to go and watch Men in Black halfway through Hugo, I probably would have taken them up on the offer...

    ... but I see your point anyway.

    In regards to backstory that can and can't happen offscreen, I'd say a good metric is to say "could someone with no knowledge of the EU, but who has seen all the films, guess that this could have happened?". In other words, talking to a bunch of movie-only fans and asking what they think has happened since RotJ.

    I could see them saying:

    Luke starts training new Jedi
    Han and Leia get married
    The Rebels conclusively defeat the Empire and form a new government

    I can't see them saying:

    Luke's wife (a former Imperial assassin) was killed by Han and Leia's son, who had become a Sith Lord
    Chewbacca was killed by a moon, which had been engineered to crash into the planet by a race of Force-less aliens from outside the galaxy

    That's an exaggeration, yes, but these are monumental events that your average filmgoer is going to feel cheated out of not seeing.
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  23. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    And the screenwriters are under no obligation to use every single detail and every single element from the Expanded Universe. They can take the Clone Wars approach and pick and choose elements from the EU that are interesting and would work well in the primary canon. There are interesting things to choose from and there IS precedence for it happening. This isn't nor has it ever been an all-or-nothing proposition.

    They don't have to and shouldn't have to carry over things like Chewie's death into the new films. They can, however, select specific EU elements and adapt them to the film universe. Marvel managed to do this with their 616 and film universes, there's absolutely zero reason to think that Lucasfilm can't do the same.
    Last edited by Lane_Winree, Mar 28, 2013
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  24. MillionthVoice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 1
    Excellent example but probably of the opposite to your intention.
    Ahsoka is so universally loved a character? And everyone is pleased with her position in the story? Nobody complains about her?
    The existence of an Episode VII that takes place 30-50 years after the OT means precisely that
    - stuff obviously happened (rebuilding republic, family stuff, whatever)
    - but the fact that it happened off-screen establishes with absolute certainty that it was less important than the events of the ST.
    The last point cannot be stressed enough. And wifes and kids death are the biggest events in a persons life. Ergo if they can happen off-screen they must have been uneventful.

    Mara died of natural causes might work. Killed by nephew - too big deal for off-screen.

    What's so hard to grasp? Storytelling has certain rules that must be followed otherwise we don't understand what's happening.
    It's a language.
    rules has Language follow for. also don't that we to intelligible be for that us to has to for rules Language

    If the story of VII somehow builds on EU events it could work but they cannot be incidental to the story because that will cause infinite suckiness. I know it is an unpalatable idea but if this were a franchise whose tie-in fiction you're not so invested in this discussion wouldn't even happen.
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  25. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Ah, but you see, it is. When Episode VII is released, it's either going to be similar enough to the current post-RotJ EU that a few retcons will fix everything, or it's going to be different enough to wipe all those books (or at least the vast majority) from canon.

    There is no middle ground on this. Either the EU carries on as is, or it's rebooted. There is no third option

    But that's not the point. So, let's say they include Mara Jade as Luke's wife. Great, an EU element has made it's way into the film!

    ... except she's still alive, which invalidates Legacy of the Force. And she and Luke have a daughter, not a son, which invalidates the New Jedi Order. And Luke is completely unaware of her ever having anything to do with Palpatine or the Empire, which invalidates the Thrawn Trilogy.

    Do you see what I mean? Either they follow the EU closely, or they ignore it. "Select[ing] specific EU elements and adapt[ing] them to the film universe" still wipes out the EU if the storylines don't match up.
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