Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    Yes there is and it's already an official option as described in the Essential Reader's Companion. The Expanded Universe as we know it exists as a parallel canon to the film universe. This is per Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo and is the official stand on it. It can continue on EXACTLY as it is right now because it's not beholden to the films like the films aren't beholden to it. Again, Marvel. Other IPs have figured this out. Other IPs that Disney owns.

    Claiming that the new films are going to "wipe out" the EU is just fearmongering. The EU as it exists now isn't going away.

    Your mistake is assuming that the EU and the film universe are the same canon when they are, in reality, parallel canons as described above.
  2. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    MillionthVoice first off I see your point but have to point out just because something happened on screen doesnt make it more important than other events (so stating everything that happens off screen is less important is misleading since we know not all events are equally important), take for example the pod races in ep I or Luke killing the Rancor since those events didnt really need to happen or at least be focused on as much as they where. Now yes, since movies are the highest level cannon its super easy to state Ahsoka isnt as important but take her exile and Anakins reaction to it into account and suddenly Anakin going ds and seeing the Jedi as evil felt incredibly less forced and a far more natual progression. She is a very important character in most regards.

    Next off I agree with your statement about Mara, but I said that all a long too. Episode VII can easily take The Clone Wars tv show appoach to the EU by keeping what they liked and editing the rest of it with its own new stories.Plus you have to take into account this new TV show, if it is a retelling of the EU mixed with new stories just like TCW show than they could easily have Mara killed off by her nephew if they so choose to go that route... I still doubt it though but mainly since Jacen's fall was really just a fanboy/girls wish list of what Anakin's fall should have been like and think they'd rather explore something new there. Especially since it would demeen Anakin and Palpatine's actions by having an angry war tortured victim almost replacting what they achieved in decades worth of planning while Jacen did it in two years.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
    kubricklynch likes this.
  3. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    People know what a wedding is. It would be nice to see, and if Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher were 25 years younger, you wouldn't make a movie without showing it, but jumping that far forward and not showing hte wedding isn't as bad as Hans son becoming a Sith and almost destorying the Galaxy because people know what a wedding is and came out of RotJ knowing/assuming they'd get married. Introducing a new character who had to kill her own twin, or who was killed by her nephew isn't how to suck new audiences into the story.

    Ahsoka was a bad example, which is why I ignored it, because she wasn't created in 2005 to reference or ignore. If the cartoon had aired between AotC and RotS, she would have been mentioned or seen in the movie.

    Lets use Abrams movie for another example - do we believe Nero just sat in space doing nothing for 25 years? Of course not, but he didn't go and destroy Vulcan off-screen.
    There is a 3rd option - it continues on but is no longer connected to the movies the way it is now.
    kubricklynch likes this.
  4. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    I don't think anyone's saying they can't use ANY EU elements, just that the continuity can't be saved.
  5. Lane_Winree Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 4
    There are plenty of people in this thread who are opposed to using EU elements.

    And what continuity is there to save? It's a parallel canon. The EU can carry on its own way because it's not beholden to the new films just like the new films isn't beholden to it. The EU can certainly draw from the new films but it won't be a slave to it.

    I'm getting the impression there's a disconnect over what "adapt EU elements" means. When someone talks about bringing an EU character in, it's not bringing that EU character in and every little detail about their backstory. It's bringing the character and their fundamental personality in. If Jacen Solo shows up in the new films, the Jacen in the film universe might have many of the same personality characteristics and mannerisms, but hasn't gone all Sith and started a Civil War.

    Kind of like how the Tony Stark in the Marvel film universe is a charismatic genius billionaire but doesn't have the 50 years of story baggage from the comics universe.
    Last edited by Lane_Winree, Mar 28, 2013
    Ryus likes this.
  6. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Fenton... actually Nero did do next to nothing for 35 years because he was stuck waiting for future Spock to arrive there but didnt know when he'd show up yet knew where he'd arrive, so he was stuck just waiting at that location for all that time. Once he did show up then he acted out his insane plan of revenge that he plotted during those 35 years. Bad example.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
  7. MillionthVoice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 2
    ^Ryus no of course everything that happens on screen isn't more important, what we're shown is a sequence of events that as a whole is more important.
    My argument is rather that all that happens off-screen is less important
    ie: the intervening 30-50 years worth of events are less important and less character-defining than what we're about to see in VII
    fenton likes this.
  8. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    I'm not saying people aren't personally opposed to using EU elements, but that's not what the main argument is.

    I agree that its a parallel canon, but try telling that to some people...
    Last edited by kubricklynch, Mar 28, 2013
  9. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    While it's nice that you accept that the ST is unlikely to conform to the details of the EU, I'm afraid to say that I think you're drastically wrong about a lot of other things. For a start, Pablo's quote in the ERC exists to maker the point that the films (and TV shows like The Clone Wars) are not, and have never been, beholden to the continuity of the EU. The EU, on the other hand, has always changed to conform to the films (which I will cover below).

    Really? After AotC, the EU showed us George Lucas's version of the Clone Wars, not Timothy Zahn's, or the version from the old Marvel comics. I can't think of a single example where the EU has ignored something established in a film because it clashed with something in a previous EU work. Retconned to hell yes, but always to match the films.

    I'm sorry that what you think I'm doing is fearmongering. I assure you, that isn't my intention.

    However, I strongly believe that the current post-RotJ is for the chop if Episode VII doesn't match up to it. As I've said, it's just past-precedent. If Episode VII features Nomi Skywalker and Gavin Solo, Disney/Lucasfilm aren't going to keep churning out books about Ben and Jaina. Sadly, the profit in it is minimal compared to books that will capture fans of the new films, and others who feel that anything not canon "doesn't count".

    I apologise if that sounds pessimistic, but I genuinely believe the writing is on the wall, and saying otherwise is only setting people up for massive disappointment.

    It's not a mistake. Lucasfilm have never continued storylines contradicted by the films. They retcon them away and pretend everything always matched. Now we are, for the first time ever, in a situation where major events and irreversible character development could be written over, and I will be gobsmacked if this doesn't mean an EU reboot.
    eht13, Darth_Pevra and kubricklynch like this.
  10. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Clarification: So are you arguing that the need to see the entire pod race was more important than Ahsoka's influence on Anakin's fall just due to one being in the movie and the other not?

    Look I get that Anakin's fall was a completed arc in ep III, Im just saying Ahsoka does a very nice job making Anakin's transition for episode II to his fall in III a much more completed character arc. As such I view it as far more important to his character then his pod racing rivalry with Selbulba as a child, it takes a rather open debate of Obiwan failing as a teacher and where it stems to make that event rather important especially vs Ahsoka's exile and Anakin' reaction to it in his disillusionment of the Jedi Order being the good guys.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
  11. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    Yeah, there's no way Disney would keep publishing books in the old EU. That would not only be financially stupid, but goes against their modus operandi so far.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  12. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    This is a really bad example. Ever since TCW was announced, fans have complained that Ahsoka being Anakin's apprentice was too important to not be mentioned in the films.

    If anything, it proves that some things are too big for the EU.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Mar 28, 2013
    fenton likes this.
  13. MillionthVoice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 2
    @Ryus: No, i'm not arguing that the entire pod race was more important, but I am, to hold with the same example, arguing that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon meeting and getting Anakin off Tatooine is more important than Anakin tutoring Ahsoka. It's a matter of granularity. You could argue that Luke dragging Vader's body to the shuttle in RotJ is more important than Leia and Han's wedding. And it isn't. But it's a part of a chain of events that as a whole was more important.
    @Jedi Comedian: My point exactly
    Last edited by MillionthVoice, Mar 28, 2013
  14. run_luke_run Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2004
    star 4
    Who in the hell is Ahsoka?
    Last edited by run_luke_run, Mar 28, 2013
  15. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Actually that isn't true, he got captured by Klingons and spent the 25 years or so in a prison, and they did know when future Spock would arrive and were there waiting for him, the scenes were just cut from the movie.

    But you don't need to know that to follow and enjoy the movie, all you need to know is he is kicking around/hiding somewhere waiting for Spock. But you avoided the point nicely - it would be kinda bad storytelling if you here in passing the Nero had destroyed Vulcan off screen in that 25 year gap, no?

    Yes, but that also begs the term "EU elements" to be defined. If they use the name Jaina but changed everything about her, is that really an EU character/element being
    used?

    You don't need know anything Ahsoka to get and follow Anakins fall to the darkside. She wasn't even created when RotS came out. The podrace and Anakin's ability to compete in it is how Qui-Gon discovers he is a potential Jedi, without that Qui-Gon has no reason to believe Anakin can use the force and no means by to free him and get the parts they need to leave the planet.

    I dunno. Marvel is able to maintain multi. continuities and timelines and versions of their characters without creating consumer confusion. They are able to aim different products at different audiences. People who want more material are able to search it out and figure out the differences while those who only want one just get the material that interests them. I could see Lucasfilm and Disney following Marvels example.
  16. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    I don't know if it's logical to compare SW to Marvel. The SW EU is built around the films. For Marvel, comics are the original medium. And multiple continuities are accepted in comics. SW has been "one continuity" (at least ostensibly) the whole time.

    IMO, it would be waste of Disney's resources to publish novels and comics that aren't going to be promoting the ST.

    EDIT: Most people got into EU because it was a continuation of the films. People read comics just cause they like the comics.
    Last edited by kubricklynch, Mar 28, 2013
    lbr789 and DarthPoppy like this.
  17. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    This same logic applies to several other instance in star wars history too, yet they exsist and we must deal with it. These events include Star Wars becoming episode VI, The making of the PT, The EU, All the shows, and the upcoming spinoff movies. MillionthVoice I agree Anakin becoming a jedi and getting offTatooine is more important in Anakins history then anyother event in his life save father twins and falling to the ds (so more important than Ahsoka) but the fact remains though that TCW and the EU are cannon. You can say all you want that the movies are the only important thing and in one aspect you are correct but it is only correct in a narrow sense and starts misdirecting the point that you are narrowly defining the chain of events of what is important. We, in this instance arent arguing if cannon in the EU will survive as such but something else entirely. Fact is Ahsoka is part of the chain of events at Lucas's own command. We can agree Star Wars should never have been told out of order and with endless edits to the chain of events but it would be crying over spilt blue milk.

    Fenton, sigh, really a deleted sceen. Dont know how it works in Star Trek but in Star Wars deleted scenes are offically Non-Cannon unless other wise referenced by another work, an example of this is Red Leader aka Garven Dreis flying with Anakin Skywalker... so until such time as that deleted scene gets referenced its non-cannon in my book.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
  18. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Are ion cannons canon?
    kubricklynch likes this.
  19. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    She is, well now was, Anakin Skywalkers jedi padawan in the Clone Wars tv show which takes place between episode II and III. Season 5 ended with her getting exiled from the jedi order for a crime she didnt commit, Anakin knew the truth and hated the council for making the wrong call. Later her innocense was proven and was offered a chance to rejoin the order but she declined saying she she had become too disillusioned with the order after that. Anakin seemed to be feeling that thought too.

    She also had seen many visions of Anakins fall to the dark side...
    run_luke_run likes this.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's referenced in the novelization, if we consider novel Blue Leader to be synonymous with Red Leader.

    Dreis flying with Anakin is also referenced in other media:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Garven_Dreis
  21. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    And if you're asking "wait, why would any show think it makes sense to give Anakin a padawan?"... well, good question.
  22. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Lolz... I know... I just said he was an instance of a deleted scene BECOMING cannon, not that it wasnt. [face_laugh]

    Sorry if it wasnt clear... trying to multitask here.
    Last edited by Ryus, Mar 28, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I getcha.

    There's probably a few others as well.
  24. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Marvel was built around the books and expanded into the movies, no real difference. And it started with 1 continuity and they added more when they were needed. No reason Star Wars can't do that as well.

    Ryus - do you constantly miss the point on purpose or do you just not understand things? WHO CARES if it was deleted scene or a novel or nothing at all. The POINT is Nero did things in that 25 years, they didn't just sit there waiting for Spock to show up (just think logically, after destroying a ship, they'd HAVE to be on the move and hide because we are told they haven't been seen since the start of the movie, but he didn't go and destroy Vulcan because that actually matters. Han and Leia getting married doesn't need to be seen, its set up at the end of RotJ - chewie dying, matters, it would need to be seen (for example).
  25. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    "Marvel was built around the books and expanded into the movies, no real difference. And it started with 1 continuity and they added more when they were needed. No reason Star Wars can't do that as well. "

    The difference is the movies are their own continuity, they aren't an EU to the comics. You don't need to read the comics to watch the movies or vice versa. But hardly anyone (I assume) reads SW EU that isn't a big fan of the movies. Not saying the two are completely different, but there are some key differences.