Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I don't think you know what a Gary Stu is.

    You can think the Chairman and CEO of Disney, a multi Billion dollar company that opperates world wide, who has a Science Degree and ran ABC before and after Disney bought and then moved up, and whos salary is large based on bonuses based on on well the entire company does is worried about the holonet and the EU, but you'd be wrong. He is worried about making Disney profitable. Kennedy, not Iger, is going to take an interest in Star Wars creative. Iger is the CEO, he has much bigger and more important things he has to deal with everyday then the holonet and whether or not Mara Jade will be in Episode VII or if the new Cartoon series his animation department is working on, and projects to be profitable for Disney conflicts with a novel Zahn wrote in the early 90's.

    But fine, take my comments out of it. Iger never once said the EU would be a source of inspiration for his writers, he said the history, characters and planets provided infinate inspiration and oppertunities, and that Star Wars would continue on as movies, tv shows, theme part attractions and consume products. Thats not even close to saying "my writers are going to mine the EU for ideas". We do however have the new head of Lucasfilm saying they don't have a book series to serve as a template (not basis, template), the director saying - "Disney is not going to feel bound by what has been established in the expanded universe, they will come up with their own take on what happens."- . Plus Lucasfilms ALWAYS taken the position that the EU will not limit what can be done in the movies. You have the people involved in production saying the EU isn't going to be used, and Bob Iger never said the EU would be the inspiration for projects Disney was moving forward with.
    Last edited by fenton, Apr 10, 2013
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  2. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    More speculation and definitive statements about things we don't have the answer to.
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  3. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Even Lucas, when he was running Lucasfilm, didn't keep up or care about the EU and how everything fit together, and he said as much many, many times.

    But you think the non-creative, who didn't create Star Wars, who's company is much bigger is going to care?

    And as I said, which you decided to ignore - Iger never said the EU was going to be a source of insipration for Disney writers, and the Producer AND Director of hte films have said they aren't using the EU. So why are people still saying the EU will/could/should be used?
  4. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    A TV series after ROTJ could actually lessen anticipation for the movies because we already got to see what happens to Luke and co. on a screen (not the big screen, but still) before the movies start rolling. Also the production window is awfully small. 2015 is not very far away. Is it even possible to squeeze in the post-ROTJ series before the ST rolls around?
  6. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    I don't think it would lessen anticipation. 2 Ironman movies, a Thor and Cap movie, a cartoon series and the comics didn't lessen anticipation for the Avengers film. The series doesn't have to lead up to the movies, it could be 5 years after RotJ while Episode VII is 35 years after. Or it could not tie into the movie at all, Earth's Mightiest Heroes has nothing to do with Avengers.

    As for how quick they could turn it around, I dunno. I've heard rumors/reports that Lucasfilm was already in development of a cartoon series when Disney bought them, that series could be a post RotJ series or easly adapted to one. Scott Mossier was working with Disney for a while on a cartoon series, and apparently Disney isknown for having a longer development period that anyone else in the business, but that was a new property and a Star Wars series might be developed much quicker.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I think one main draw of these movies will be that there is no respectable material on the Big Three out there. Books and comics okay but many people don't read nowadays and only stuff on the screen matters to them. For them, the ST will be the first opportunity ever to see the Big Three in action again.

    But if you make a tv-show first people will already know whether Luke has founded a Jedi academy and what kids Han & Leia have. Those questions will be answered before Episode VII.

    I think they will want to keep all the character developments in-between trilogies a secret just so that the hunger for knowing the answers to these questions becomes greater and greater until anticipation is at a maximum. The more speculation there is about the future of the big three, the better for Disney.

    On your other point I guess you could be right that production already started for the new series. But when TCW was canceled, Filoni seemed really sad about it as if he didn't anticipate it. He wouldn't have been as surprised if he already knew a new horse was coming into the stable.
  8. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Who is saying that it will be used? Another fiction.

    Could be used, or should be used, those are opinion based.

    I'd love to see it used, but I'm not going to come in here and make up false claims about it being used to try and further my own opinion. We do not know at this point if Disney is going to contradict the EU. I would say that is the main issue. Sure, people involved have made comments - but we don't know the definitive answer as yet. Arndt or Abrams not feeling bound by the EU isn't the same as saying they are going to eliminate it.

    Iger does specifically mention the EU when he talks about the library of 17,000 characters, it doesn't mean they will be getting used at all. Could be he wants to create 17,000 new characters - but it is a clear sign that he is aware of the Expanded Universe. He might not use it, but if he doesn't care about it(or know about it) then why mention it?

    Your basically rewriting quotes to get the answer you are looking for, when we actually don't have any answers right now. Just a lot of questions and speculation.
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  9. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    ^
    [IMG]

    I can think of about 15 different definitions of the term. That's the problem. It ranges from 'a character so perfect as to be annoying' to 'lacking any realism' to 'stupid names that are just meant to add to their awesome factor', etc...

    Fact is though, Corran in FotJ was anything but perfect, got his ass kicked, was on the verge of emotionally breaking down and not unrealistically. For crying out loud he didnt even really use his double phase saber and with all the rare force abilities in that arc his ability to absorb energy was rather mild (and more used by his son than him)

    The problem here is actually the term itself, since it could be applied to about 2/3rd of all named Jedi in the EU... including Luke and Leia in several books. The term is very aribitrary and subjective, often just being used to insult characters in non constructive fashions. Next off, it brings to question author writting styles so character a in one authors book might be a Gary Stu but in the next book by a new author that same character a may bot be any more. However it seems some people dont recognize this and keep looking for ways said character must still be a Gary Stu since in there mind they are forevermore such a character, which brings up the next issue, everyone interpurets things differently. So you may see a Gary Stu, I might see a realist hurt father who can absorb energy but didnt do it this arc, or you may see a realistic Jedi but I might see a cliched character that is a clone of _____ from _____…

    Sorry but I see your arguments about Gary Stu's as attempts to strawman the convo against the EU by proclaiming 'looking Gary Stu here Mary Sue here, burn it with fire'. Imho though, things are not so simplistic nor are they so clear cut. I just prefer to look at the characters concept than a writer not being some master of the art and having a flaw here or there.
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 10, 2013
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  10. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    First, I don't think it matters if people know Luke founded a Jedi academy (for example) before they see the movie. They'll probably know that after the first trailer 6 months before they see the movie anyway. Second, as I said, they could set the series years before the movie or not have it be related to the movie at all.

    Filoni might not have expected TCW to be cancelled and still known a new series was coming.

    That is the kind of comment I'm talking about. The director of the movie has said they aren't going to be bound by the EU and come up with their own take on what happened (why only listen to half of what he said?), and you aren't accepting it, its "well maybe, we don't know".

    Its a sign that whoever wrote that statement for Iger is aware of the EU, and that Disney bought a HUGE franchise.
    Last edited by fenton, Apr 10, 2013
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Have you seen the trailers for into the darkness? They only told me that the baddy wanted revenge for something and that earth is in danger.
    This is JJ Abrams. We won't get much information on what the Skywalkers did all those years before the movie. We also won't know anything about political situation like whether the Empire is around or not.

    Also, there's now a Vader sized hole in the franchise = not enough Vader. That must be fixed as Vader is the most popular villain in entire franchise. So we'll either get a Vader spinoff, a series including Vader or both.
    And no, the PT didn't satisfy our appetite for Vader because the real and cool Vader we love was barely in it.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 10, 2013
  12. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    So no, you dont' really know what a gary stu is. Crying over a child doesn't make a character not a gary-stu.

    You can like a Gary Stu, lots of people do. The term isn't an insult at all, and if you read it that way, wel thats on you. If they weren't popular characters they wouldn't exist. Lots of people like them because they are how many readers put themselves in the world they are engaging in, because thats how many people like to see/think of themselves in a fantasy setting. No one fantaises about being in Star Wars but being flawed and average. Everyone thinks/dreams about being a great pilot, a Jedi, fighting Sith, the smartest smuggler out ther etc... and then bringing something of themselves to it as well which would also make them unique and special.
  13. jedimikey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2012
    star 2
    Ryus...stop feeding the rancor, buddy. Use the ignore button! It's pointless to attend a debate with someone who is incapable of contemplating your POV.

    Think of the ignore button as the big blast door that crushes the rancor's head. Sticking bones in its mouth (or jelly babies) doesn't work.
  14. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's one of my problems with the PT. No engaging in your face villain. 3 subpar villains. Palpatine was a behind the scenes villain.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    If the ST doesn't have a better villain than a Palpatine expy I'll be disappointed.
  16. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    For cryout loud... there is no officially accepted definition for the terms Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's fenton. Even Tvtropes says this. There is only a complied list of common traits they have. No one can know the definition to a term that doesnt have a agreed upon definition, might as well ask me to define life then say Im not using the right definition.

    Next off I never said there was anything wrong with liking a character that is such, I said its a term often used to strawman against such characters by pointing out their 'flaws' then taking a moral high ground in an argument against said character. You are misrepresenting what I posted.

    Finally, yes, one of the terms commonly associated with Gary Stu's is them being a vessel for either the writter or reader to imagine themselves as (since he was barely in the arc not sure even this can be applied to him that arc), however it's also about 14 other possible traits too. Do you want me to draw out a big list for you, that that atm seems the only way I'll get you to drop accusing me of not knowing a term which has no agreed upon absolute definition.. At the end of the day its an ambigious term, no matter what you claim.
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 10, 2013
  17. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
  18. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
  19. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 7
    "Now, that's more like it"!
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  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    And how do you know their own take will contradict the EU? Isn't it possible that Arndt and Abrams take ends up pretty compatible with previous EU? Even by coincidence? There probably will be some contradictions, but to what extent? How much damage will be done? Will the EU survive relatively intact? Will it end up as a torn and tattered shadow of its former self? Or will it be completely wiped out?

    We don't know. Until we get more specifics, we won't know for certain.

    Personally, I think the entirety of the post-ROTJ EU will be wiped out, but I could be wrong. Even if Abrams blasts through the EU as much as he possibly can, LFL has continuity obsessed employees who might jump through hoops to piece it all back together, they've done it before, so they might do it again.

    Disney might decide this whole "canon/continuity" thing is a good way to make money, so they might pay it lip service just like LFL did.

    What retcon? Waru is all things, including a 4 foot tall vampire Jawa.
  21. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Yes I have, and I have a pretty goo idea of the plot of that movie, were its set etc... I don't know all of it, but I'm not starting at ground zero either.

    We probably won't get much info on what the skywalkers did in all those years in the movie either. And all there needs to be in a trailer is Leia standing in the middle of a senator or Luke with several Jedi around him - and people will get the idea. I agree they won't leak lots of story elements or surprises. But Luke re-starting the Jedi or a Senate being there etc... that stuff will be well known by those fans who are interested before they seet he movie.

    ANd as I said, a series could be set 30 years before Episode VII and not touch on ANY of that stuff at all, or be completely unrelated.

    They don't need more Vader. Sometimes less is more. Keep the fans wanting more.
  22. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    What retcon? Waru is all things, including a 4 foot tall vampire Jawa.[/quote]

    We haven't seen the EU be in this position, to this extent before.

    I don't know what the end result is going to be, personally I think we going to get a Marvel like situation after this, but I do know that the EU isn't going to be followed because the people involved have said so.
  23. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    [IMG]
    Elaborate or suffer everyones facepalm you will.
    I suspect Darth Claire will be calling in Disney snipers very soon too. :p
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 10, 2013
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  24. fenton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 3
    Potential Spoilers a head, though just watch the trailer its all there.

    It starts with Kirk and Bones on a primitave planet running from Natives while Spock do something in a vulcano (probably trying to save the people on the planet. Then back on earth Sherlock attacks Star Fleet HQ, Kirk wants to go after him and after some serious talk and yelling he does. They go to the Klingon homeword and capture Sherlock (or so it all part of his plan?), they bring him back to Earth were he escapes and we get a ship crashing into the San Fransico Harbour and chase through the streets.

    I don't know all the details of the movie, but from the trailers I know the basic plot, I know Kirk is getting a reputation as a commander who takes risks with his crews lives, I know Sherlock is pissed at Star Fleet for something they did, I know Kirk takes it personally. Its not hard to get a pretty good idea of what is going on in that movie just from the trailers.

    As I said, Luke being the leader of a Jedi order/council or there being another Senate is info that will most likely be in the trailers or production photo's.
  25. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Oh, lolz... misread what you meant thought you where referring to episode VII since everything else you stated their was about VII not Into Darkness... yeah I saw the 10 minute intro of ST:ID too and read other spoilers, however you still dont know why he's being chased or his motivation beyond the tiny tid bits we've gotten.
    Last edited by Ryus, Apr 10, 2013