Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. DEATHCONQUEROR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2011
    star 1
    Here's an interesting theory I've been delving into...if one assumes that the recent leaked plot rumor about ep 7 is accurate, than here's an idea about who the rumored "disciple of palpatine" for ep 7 could be. Remember it's only a theory, but what if it's possible that Lucas bringing Darth Maul back and then leaving his story open ended in CW was no mere afterthought? We were left with the possibility that Maul was recruited back into Sidious' circle of servants/assassins at the end of the episode. While it sounds wierd that Maul would be about 90 years old by then, you could always fix that by having Maul master life-extension sorcery. Just a thought...
    InterestingLurker likes this.
  2. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    No.
    Ryus likes this.
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    If we can't trust the exposition, then nothing is set in stone, the very foundation of the story is put into question. That may work well in Mulholland Drive or Fight Club but it has no business being in a classical fantasy/adventure like Star Wars.

    Star Wars already presents an exotic world that is quite strange and hard to understand. People assume that what explanations they are given are the truth, they depend on them. If you turn around and suddenly ignore what was established before viewers are gonna feel rightfully cheated.

    If there's still Jedi, they could still act as mentors for a very powerful pupil and thus create a second Luke. How does that not screw with the intent of Yodas line?
    His line was straightforward enough and I don't see an actual reason to retcon its meaning into oblivion.

    Luke can easily have trained a bunch of force sensitives after Endor. Why screw with the OT when it is completely unnecessary?

    Realism is not that important in Star Wars, it certainly takes a backseat to dramaturgy. Everything takes a backseat to dramaturgy. Just like it should be.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 21, 2013
  4. newdawn12 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    How will the Authors keep up qith the changes each movie makes, since it takes between three months to a year to write it, then another year for publishing, marketing,, and distribution.
  5. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Boy, you must really hate Obi-Wan.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Jupp, I don't like that retcon much. But as far as I know, so do quite a few others. It's the main reason why Obi-Wan is often called a liar.
  7. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    As I recall, some are active within the Rebellion. Ylenic It'Kla, who dies on Alderaan, Ferus Olin, though what happens to him I couldn't say. There are a bunch of proto-Jedi in the SpecForces as well, like Kyle Katarn, Shira Brie and Corwin Tredway, who are finding their feet in the Force as Luke does. So... Even Luke undoubtedly realises he is the first of the new Order. And of course General Kota is about pre-Yavin too, though I imagine that he is killed off-screen if the Rebellion abandoning Dantooine is an indication.
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Apr 21, 2013
  8. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Some truths one should learn the hard way and/or are too poorly timed to tell then and there, being better learned once the student is further in their training.
  9. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I'm not saying we can't trust the exposition, just that we don't have to interpret every single line as being 100% literal unless it's directly contradicted.

    It's that line of thinking that led to ridiculous things like Yoda being exactly 900 years old when he died.

    Saying the Force isn't real cheats the audience. Saying there are some Jedi, but they've gone totally into hiding, to the extent when they're not even Jedi any more, is no big deal. The main outcome is still the same: Luke has to face Vader and the Emperor alone.

    Because they're hidden away and 20 years out of practice. Sure, they could come back into the fold, but it will take some looking. Luke will still be the driving force behind any New Jedi Order. If anything, getting advice and support from old school Jedi increases his legitimacy.

    And if they disagree with him... well, there's your "dramaturgy" right there. :D

    "Retcon to oblivion" is a massive overstatement. Maybe there are some other Jedi out there, but they're not contributing to the conflict, so they don't matter. Yoda is still correct in what he's saying.

    There always has to be a degree of realism in any work. Even in Star Wars. If Han could suddenly fly in Episode VII, then a lot of people would hate that. It's about striking a balance.

    Look, we just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I like things not to be absolute, black and white, as it makes the story richer and more believable for me. A literal reading of every line destroys the suspension of disbelief in the Saga. I get where you're coming from - Luke's importance to the story hinges on him being the only active Jedi in the galaxy. And I agree with that. I don't like games like Force Unleashed and Battlefront: Elite Squadron where Jedi are openly fighting for the Rebellion before Luke. But to treat characters as omniscient fonts of knowledge with no exaggeration or metaphor in the lines cheapens the films and undermines the dramatic effect.

    If you feel differently, fine. But it's a matter of opinion, not a contradiction of facts. The makers of the ST are well within their rights to bring back a small number of lost Jedi without it being a logical fallacy.
  10. DEATHCONQUEROR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2011
    star 1
    If not Maul, having Starkiller as the evil "disciple" sounds even more plausible and awesome in my opinion. They left his story open ended in Force Unleashed 2 and I can see a possibility of Vader getting rescued from Dantooine and then Starkiller finally turning to the dark side and becoming a Hand of Palpatine. I'm sure Sam Witwer would be psyched if he could have a role in episode 7, and even more so if he was his own character again. He has after all expressed interest in acting a Starkiller role in a future live action franchise...
    Arawn_Fenn likes this.
  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I've seen what happens when the lines are not taken 100% like their original intention. I don't like it. Imo fanfiction is a good place for that kind of thing (by the way, I like fanfiction), but not the movies.

    So why do we never see those Jedi? Why is Luke dependent on an Obi-Wan ghost appearing while he is dying to even get a chance of additional training? If there were more Jedi around, the story would work completely differently. Luke would go around trying to recruit those Jedi, band them together. Plus it feels really weird that Jedi, of all people, wouldn't fight with the rebellion. It is their stick to do hero-stuff.

    I like my OT to make sense and fit together, and I'd very much like it to fit with the ST as well. Because movie-canon is for me the real thing, this is important to me.

    And about the force not being real: Han Solo is a cynical gangster character. He is not portrayed as the all-knowing wise mentor type. Even in the scene afterwards it is shown that he is wrong.

    Yes, some degree of realism. But Star Wars includes sounds in space and desert planets with breathable air. Realism isn't really important, consistency however is (which would be the main reason why a flying Han would be dumb). Consistency which would be damaged by adding completely superfluous OT-survivor Jedi.

    Not all characters are all-knowing (Yoda didn't seem to know that Vader would be turned), but exposition in this kind of film is exposition. For Star Wars there are certain storytelling rules in place that it should follow.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 21, 2013
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  12. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Any new villain should work completely within the context of the films, without having to have read/watched/played any EU.

    Frankly, I can't see that working for Maul and Starkiller - there's too much baggage to explain them. Especially Maul. Imagine watching the films in order: Maul gets killed in the first film, then the plot goes off without him, and then six films later he's back.

    That said, the secret apprentice angle is a good one. I just think it would work better with a new character. The Skywalker legacy v the Palpatine legacy. Anakin's children (and, likely, grandchildren) against Palpatine's children.
  13. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Sam Witwer would be a great addition to the Episode VII ensemble cast. However, I think if he is ever involved in the movie, he should play a different character.

    But, there should definitely be a few references to TCW made in the film. Disney might as well toss a bone out to the fanbase.
    Circular_Logic likes this.
  14. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    @Darth_Pevra:

    I don't really want to get into this discussion again. You and I just have completely incompatible ideas about what is and isn't acceptable or desirable in storytelling. However, I do want to clarify one point.

    I wasn't actually referring to Han's line about not believing in the Force. You're right - the line is perfect for Han, and it's quickly established he's wrong.

    What I was referring to was a hypothetical revelation that the Force is non-existent, and that everything the Jedi and Sith said about it was a lie. That for me would be cheating the audience. Yoda using figures of speech based on the knowledge available to him is perfectly acceptable, even desirable.
  15. ChildOfWinds Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    I agree with you, Darth Pevra. I too feel that Luke should be the only Jedi as Yoda said he would be. Otherwise, it simply makes no sense why other Jedi didn't participate in the Rebellion. I think having Luke be the only Jedi as of RotJ makes Luke far more important than he would be if there are other Jedi in existence. If Luke is the only Jedi, he is the only one who can restore the Jedi Order. It also explains why Yoda and Ben thought that the Skywalker twins were so important that they needed to be hidden and protected.

    If there were other Jedi knights, others could have restored the Order. I really hope that we'll find in the ST that Luke was the only Jedi during RotJ, but that he will have trained others between Episode VI and VII.
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  16. DEATHCONQUEROR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2011
    star 1
    That is correct that there are a number of fans that know Starkiller's story. But it is also true, and an equally valid case could be made, that there are a great many number of star wars fans (particularly adults) that are unaware of the character, or even his existence or importance. He would technically be a new character to the actual films anyway, but a very profound one with a big impact. It is important to note that we don't necessarily know Starkillers whole story as an EU character for it to be worn out in a movie. They cut everything short and left many things unsolved at the end of TFU 2.Though he's not a Skywalker, Starkiller is at least canonically too important to crucial events revolving around Vader and the Emperor. His relationship with Vader in TFU1 and TFU2 is so captivating and powerful a story, that it would resonate nicely in full circle with events in ep 7. Starkiller and his story make him an awesome hero but it would also make him into an incredibly more dangerous and evil villain to deal with. Just a thought, but we'll just have to see what happens...
    Circular_Logic likes this.
  17. jedimikey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2012
    star 2
    X
    Hmmm. Seems like the same sort of debate and positions thereof that some involves wether there should be Sith or not around after RotJ.

    The other Knights were hiding, mostly from Vader. Most of those that Vader didn't assassinate were beneath Palpatine's notice. Numerous Jedi left the Order rather than fight in the Clone Wars long before the Purge, and many others went into hiding after Order 66. Vader kills many over the years, but the galaxy is a vast place and he couldn't have gotten them all.

    What Yoda said is basically true from his point of view. He was in exile...how could he possibly have known about Dass Jennir, for example, or anyone else? The only other survivor he was aware of was Obi-wan.
    Last edited by jedimikey, Apr 21, 2013
    Ryus and Circular_Logic like this.
  18. Toonimator Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2006
    star 3
    Adding to the discussion, the 'certain point of view' part is key, and enters the mix shortly after Yoda's statement that Luke is the last of the Jedi...

    Way back in 2005/2006, when the "Into the Unknown" arc that started the post-ROTS comic stories, the EU opened the door to Jedi surviving Order 66 and possibly all the way to the OT's time: Kai Hudorra tells the Padawan he was looking after to forget her training forget the Force, the Jedi, etc, start a new life, have a family, ignore pretty much everything she'd been taught, because now it didn't really matter. The military might of the Empire was turned against the Jedi. Public opinion was against the Jedi, thanks to Palpatine's claim that they attempted a coup.

    The galaxy had turned against the Jedi Order, backed by the SIth, a power only the Jedi had any kind of understanding of--and the fact that all that crap went down proved their understanding of the Sith was limited at best. Yoda, Obi-Wan... they had a plan, they knew of the Skywalker twins.

    Everyone else? Nope. Many are far less capable than Saesee, Agen, Kit, who fell in SECONDS to Sidious. What hope would most of them have, individually or in small groups, against the Empire? For the better part of two decades, the Rebellion was just talk and a small ragtag movement. Their FIRST major victory was immediately prior to ANH beginning, 19 years after the founding of the Empire. That was followed by a second, rapidly, the destruction of the Death Star. But 4 years later, while they had amassed a decent fleet and got some cool new ships, they were still looked at as a fairly small threat by the Emperor. Why would former Jedi, who'd had their whole worldview shattered, having to look over their shoulder for decades hoping they weren't recognized by some spacer who'd witnessed them doing Jedi things back during or before the war on some other planet, why would they risk everything for that? Most survivors may have felt they were the only ones left. The dark side clouded the Force. They may not have been able to sense anyone else out in the galaxy... not Yoda, Obi-Wan, or any others. Their hope would be gone. Best to try to survive, find a new path, and hope the dark times would pass.

    For another matter, despite guys like Dodonna saying "May the Force be with you" after briefings, some Jedi-in-hiding who'd long ago ditched his lightsaber wouldn't have any evidence that the Rebellion was any friendlier to Jedi than the rest of the galaxy. Sure, they were fighting the Empire, but that didn't mean they didn't believe the Emperor's lies about the Jedi Order. The Rebellion only gained momentum MANY years later, so it could've simply been a rebellion against the policies Palpatine's New Order put into place over time.

    Pretty much every Jedi that survived until the OT time is really no longer a Jedi. Any still acting as Jedi, even on a small scale, 19 years after Order 66, would only draw attention to themselves. If they're dumb enough to do that, the Emperor will send Vader or others after them. Just in case. But if they'd quit, then they're not important enough to hunt down--Obi-Wan & Yoda survived in hiding, as 'ex-Jedi', so maybe others did, too.

    And others wouldn't have Jedi pupils to train to diminish Luke's importance, because Luke was pretty much the strongest potential student out there... And any Younglings or Padawans that survived, or potentials the Jedi had never discovered before the end, probably didn't have nearly the strength of Luke, nor would some Jedi-in-hiding think "Hey, maybe if I train this kid, we can kick some butt!" without also realizing that the Empire would drop a Star Destroyer on them as soon as they started fighting 'em.

    Bottom line, there's plenty of easy ways to have Jedi survivors that DON'T diminish Luke's importance one bit, yet still satisfy Yoda's statement about Luke. These people could aid Luke, or become Jedi again with his guidance--Luke's gonna be the one to start the new Jedi, even if he has some old former Jedi to help out in some way. And that could lead to fun stories, if not in the ST, then in new media set between ROTJ and the ST.
  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Retroactively changing the meaning of what is said in a movie is the same as retconning it. You can go all "Oh, technically Yodas statement would still be right" but that doesn't change the fact that it's a retcon. It is a cheap thing to do just like the retcon of Obi-Wans statement about Lukes father in ANH was.

    Plus some of you should read Child of Winds post and my post on how the OTs story would change if Jedi be still around. It makes no sense that Luke wouldn't meet them in the Rebellion or at least try to find them at least if they still existed. Are you people seriously suggesting, that the Jedi(TM), protectors of good in the galaxy, all egotistically remain in their holes instead of helping the Rebellion? If that is the case, what kind of stupid order of arrogant and blind cowards is this and why does it deserve rescuing by Luke?

    That would be an inconsistency just like ignoring the messages and meanings of the movies would create inconsistencies.
  20. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I thought we were going to agree to let this drop, but apparently not.

    Some of them. The ones who fell into despair. The ones who looked into the Force and decided to play the long game. The ones who felt they could do more could protecting a small community instead of trying to save everyone. The ones who gave up the Jedi arts and took up, say, medicine, as a way to contribute good to the galaxy.

    The rest tried to be heroes and got killed pretty sharpish.

    Are you seriously suggesting that every single line said by a character has to be taken 100% completely literally at all times? No room for subtleties or interpretation, just "Yoda said it so it must be TEH TRUE guyz!".

    I mean, does every single Wookiee pull their opponent's arms out of their sockets when they lose any game?

    It's an example of an actual inconsistency, not getting hold of the words of a single fallible character conveying an emotional message to someone at a particular time and taking it as a universal constant that has to apply to a galaxy of billions of individuals.

    Besides, RotS. The Jedi beacons. Concrete film evidence that Obi-Wan and Yoda believe there are surviving Jedi, and that those Jedi have orders to run and hide. That's every bit as solid as Yoda's statement to Luke in RotJ.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The Empire stomps on small communities. Any Jedi worth his salt should realize (at least after Alderaans destruction) that there are no so-called safe hiding places against the Empire. Any hiding spot could turn into a second Alderaan anytime. Because that is how the Empire rolls.
    Your hypothetical Jedi are a bunch of fools or cowards or both.

    Joke =! expository dialogue
    You've now repeatedly brought examples that are clearly not exposition.

    Why would Yoda tell Luke he is the last of the Jedi if there are others around? Sensible thing would be to tell Luke to seek out the other hiding Jedi and with their help re-start the order, not totally mislead him. Way to go, Yoda!

    The Jedi who were saved with the beacon were killed during the Dark Times.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 22, 2013
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  22. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Seriously? The Empire is just going around randomly destroying planets left, right and centre? I think you and I watched different films.

    These Jedi may be so far removed from society that they have no idea Alderaan's been destroyed. You know, because they're in the middle of nowhere.

    So what?

    Again, we're back to the absolutes. Every single Jedi must be the height of wisdom and courage? They're more predisposed to it, of course, but to think there isn't a single foolish or cowardly Jedi in an order of 10,000 is ridiculous.

    And that's before you get into the strain the Clone Wars and Order 66 put on them. Even a Jedi could break after something like that.

    And you're just breaking lines into nit-picky categories to suit your point.

    Han's quote is very likely expository. I'm sure Wookiees have pulled people's arms from their sockets from time to time. Why must it be held at a different level to Yoda's quote? Because Han had an ulterior motive of frightening C-3PO? Again, so what? Yoda had an ulterior motive of inspiring Luke.

    OK, quick rundown: the galaxy is big. It's absolutely enormous. Thousands and thousands of habitable planets.

    These Jedi could be on any of these planets. And they're hiding. This means that they're trying not to be found.

    Oh, and Yoda doesn't know where they are. Or who they are. Or how many there are. Or if there are any Jedi left (like I said, I'm not a fan of absolutes - it's certainly possible there are no Jedi left, but not definite).

    And of course, once Luke starts the search for new Jedi, he can just put out the call on all the media for any Force sensitives to come forward. That should draw out any former Jedi in hiding.

    Seems pretty solid to me.

    Every single one? Not one Jedi, not a single one, got away?

    Oh, except for Obi-Wan. And Yoda. I mean, they were special though. No other Jedi could have possibly thought of going to a lonely house on a remote planet ... Oh, except we established they can't be fools. Now we're in a pickle.

    Frankly, I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. There's almost zero chance of us convincing each other of our viewpoint. To be completely honest, I find your view of the Star Wars universe completely dull and two-dimensional, and such an interpretation holds no interest for me. But obviously it does to you, and I don't think anything I could say could change that.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Apr 22, 2013
  23. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Actually that's exactly what they are doing in ANH. Destroying planets willy-nilly. It's one main reason why they must be stopped at any cost.

    Oh, now your hypothetical Jedi are so removed they don't know about Alderaan. I wonder what you are going to fabricate up next just to insert OT-surviving Jedi into the ST.

    No, they must not all be a fountain of wisdom. But a little bit of common sense should be expected.

    Oh, I don't doubt that Wookiees are strong enough to pull peoples arms out of their sockets. But Han was still messing around by claiming that Chewie would do it because of a game, made clear by his winning smile and smug facial expression.

    Now you are claiming Yoda is messing around with Lukes head telling him fabricated stories, abusing his trust. Don't you think that screws with the character?

    Do you understand what exposition is? It is about establishing the rules of the universe, explaining to the audience how things work and helping them understand where the story is going. You do not screw around with it unless you absolutely know what you are doing (Fight Club being an example with its unreliable narrator).
    Ignoring the rules of your own universe and doing 180s whenever it suits you is cheap hack writing.
    By the way this is exactly why the Star Wars EU is often criticized and disliked by many fans. Established facts are thrown outta the window willy-nilly because the authors of the tie-in novels apparently can't think of other ways to write engaging stories.

    By exposition established facts > realism anytime.

    The force was with them and we were shown in ROTS how they survived. Every other named Jedi character in ROTS was killed.

    I care for artistic integrity, you obviously don't.

    There are times when you can break your own established facts and even should, but a space fantasy-adventure isn't one of them.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 22, 2013
  24. jedimikey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2012
    star 2
    This IS the EU disccussion thread, is it not? This debate is the same as the Sith in the ST debate. The fact is, some Jedi DID survive the purge. Just like some Sith ARE still around. Like I said, there is no possible way Yoda could've known there were a few survivors, and as far as he's concerned Luke IS the last "official" Jedi.

    And then there is the Jedi Temple beacon. Obi-wan and Yoda OBVIOUSLY assume some Jedi MAY survive, oor at least, they hope so. But by the time ESB and RotJ rolls around, they have no idea if there are any or not.

    TFU is officially G-canon, and it shows some Jedi surviving Order 66...so I think it's safe to assume some lesser Jedi survive the purge.
    Ryus likes this.
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I point you to my last post. That there are no Jedi around was/is established fact in the OT. You can claim that Yoda didn't know all the facts but it still remains a retcon.

    The return of the Sith will also be a retcon but at least there is a damn good reason why this is done. Jedi survivors are not needed in the ST, Sith sort-of are (because any Star Wars movie has to involve lightsaber duels). If you sacrifice a stories consistency it should only happen because there is a very good reason.

    Approved by creative consultant George Lucas doesn't have the same weight it had a couple month ago.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Apr 22, 2013