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ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

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  1. Circular Logic

    Circular Logic Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2013
    From Matt Stover's description of the Vader suiting scene in the RotS novel (this passage is written in the second person, referring to Vader):
    It appears that Vader has indeed lost a lot of his potential power (perhaps from the loss of some midichlorians, though that's speculation, for the most part), and cannot hurt Sidious with his Force Scream even if he wanted to; hence, I don't think it's just psychological. Knowing this, he probably decided it best to serve the Emperor so that he could learn more about the Dark Side and become more powerful, hoping to one day overthrow him (that opportunity would come in the form of Luke in TESB).

    I agree to some extent that Palpatine essentially was a father figure to Vader, albeit in a twisted, abusive way. After Padme's death, Vader lost most of what made him formerly Anakin Skywalker and became fully immersed in the persona of Darth Vader. As to why he would stick with Palpatine despite loathing the man after learning of Padme's demise (besides the desire to grow more powerful explanation), I think Vader is suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome (which may explain the Ghost Prison incident), as Palpatine is the only person he has left who could be considered a "father" to him.
     
  2. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Yet Sidious doesn't think so in Dark Lord, he thinks Vaders problems are purely psychological, and Sidious is an authority on the Dark Side.
    Sources are simply put conflicting. The EU itself doesn't know how Midis work. However I will go with the opinion of two expert darksiders, not some n00b.
    Besides, RotS does fit together with DL because in the beginning of DL Vader was obviously suffering from a severe depression (later during the events of Lost Command he almost committed suicide as well). That's the real reason why he thought his injuries crippled his force power. Remember that RotS includes unreliable narrators.

    Anakins relationship with Palps was far better then the one with Obi-Wan as he was arguing constantly with his master and whining about him when his back was turned. He didn't like the council. He also owes Sidious his life. He thinks that everyone betrayed him 'cept for Sidious. He and Sidious are also incredibly similar, they think alike. They have similar views on how to govern the galaxy. Palpatine buys him all these toys like the executor and grants him a lot of power.

    There is little actual reason for him to hate Sidious.
     
  3. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Vader was broken after Mustafar. He had no one else but Palpatine. No Padme, no children etc. Overthrow Palpatine? So what, he had nothing. Palpatine was his only link to sanity. He was broken. He wasn't going to turn on Palpatine without something major happening which was Luke. Palpatine being the twisted devil that he is would act all friendly still and blame his actions, the suit on Obi-Wan and the Jedi. Vader knows that the Rebels would never let him join.
     
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Yes, he was indeed broken after Mustafar. He had to rebuild himself after all the traumatic things that happened to him. But he was successful. Sure he was twisted and evil and insane, but he found a reason to live (the empire) and strength to go on. Palpatine remained one of his few friends (I think he regarded men like Jixton, Veers or Jir as sorta friends too).

    However, the rebels would definitely let him join. They would be extremely foolish not to as with Vader joining they almost instantly win the war. Of course they'd watch him very, very closely and put him on trial after the empire is defeated.

    The option to turn on Palpatine and even kill him was always there for Vader. But he willingly chose not to.
     
  5. VanishingReality

    VanishingReality Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2013
    While he despises all Jedi - That does not mean he had an amicable relationship with his master. In fact, I’d say Vader was the most unruly and contentious of all Sidious’ apprentices.

    What way do they think alike? Sidious sits around and delegates everything despite being All-Powerful, enjoys using super-weapons like the Death Star and corrupt politicians (All of which annoys Vader). Sidious is like a puppet-master but Vader does everything in person and is far more direct. To me their personalities are polar opposite. The only way they are alike that I can see is that they both hate Jedi.

    Also, how does he owe Sidious his life? The suit is a fate worse than death imo

    WhileVader single-handedly keeps the empire afloat with how much he contributes, that’s not the same as power. As long as Sidious is alive, Vader is just being used as a front man. Also I think Sidious punishes his apprentice severely for failure (Likely using Sith Lightning, etc). I can't see the former slave being content with being bought toys, in exchange for being bossed around day in and out, but rather be his own master.

    And just by virtue of Sith, it's kind of a given they would try to kill one another.
     
  6. newdawn12

    newdawn12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2013
    A change in topic, since we now know that filming will stsrt early next year, which means we'll be getting
    news about the fate of the eu, if it gets Bulldozed, what will you miss?
    will you reaD new eu, with alll new characters, and which characters will you miss, and which ones will you not miss?
     
  7. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    That's for sure. Vader has an "impossible to deal with" personality. :p
    Palpatine is pretty much the only one who could keep him in check for a long period of time.

    Vader is a superb manipulator, though. How he dealt with Palpatine in TESB was quite genius. Like Sidious, he is well aware how useful lying, misdirection and manipulation are. His looks, impatience and pride however keep him from being a good diplomat. He hates playing nice with anyone he views as inferior or slimy.
    That said, they disagree on quite a few issues. Keeping slime like Xizor around is one. Or superweapons. However, they still mostly want similar things. Rule through military power, order and the death of the Jedi.

    What about sitting in a wheel chair or being blind? Vader still can do most things normal humans can do. He is disabled but disability doesn't mean your life is over. He choses to live, therefore he obviously still enjoys life in some way. Wouldn't be difficult for him to commit suicide if he wanted to.

    We've never seen any of these supposed punishments in the movies. On the other hand, Palpatine calls him "friend". Why would he do that if he tortures Vader? No, Palpatine is more crafty than you give him credit. He knows well that you can control someone as willful as eccentric Vader only through bribes and playing friendly. Vader of course knows it is only an act. But he doesn't care... In his mind everyone is a potential traitor anyways.

    To your second point: If your frontman defects you are in deep trouble. Vader was popular with the troops. If he ever left the empire mass defections would follow. The emperor and his empire would be seen as weak and that is something a military dictatorship can't deal with. Without the fear of the masses they are nothing.

    And Vader did grow frustrated with Palps leadership, plus he got greedy.
     
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  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Actually, he did.

    The Zabrak, too, had a slightly higher-than-normal midi-chlorian count, but not high enough to make him Force-sensitive.
     
  9. Lord Nikon

    Lord Nikon Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 2, 2012
    I think if I'm honest I'll say that what the EU has done over the years (yes even during the years when the PT was being made and released) was keep us all really into the fates, activities, and familial trials of the OT characters. It was a beacon of light during the dark times (before and after the PT), and a nice side-running selection of tales during the PT.

    Even if they jettison most of it, I won't ever consider it wasted time. I thoroughly enjoyed a number of the novels and stories, was annoyed by filler in others, and was a little floored by certain events...

    I don't think I'm willing to trade those memories.

    That said, those books will still exist if they jettison the EU in favor of the movie world....but just like other series, the two can run in tandem Alt Universes.

    Best examples I can think of for this are Jim Butcher's Dresden files. The short-lived TV show changed a vast number of things and the books have always been arguably better and more immersive....but Butcher himself had said that a proper "homage" to the source material can co-exist with it's other-media counterpart as long as fans can enjoy both.

    "Canon" is temperamental at the best of times. Why not learn to enjoy things for what they are, good stories.

    If good stories that take place in a fictional universe, the same fictional universe, conflict...I think I'm going to be just fine imagining that they are splinter universes of each other where time and events simply flowed differently.

    In that vein I'd kind of love to see some nod in the movies to a massive trigger event that made the EU exist as we knew it (post-ROTJ), be avoided (Ala the Trek '09 reboot) and thus creating a whole splintered timeline where the new films can progress in totally different ways without negating all that came before.

    But yeah, we don't have to dismiss the books and stories we enjoyed just because the films take a different path. Let's enjoy what we had, and look forward to what we'll get instead. :)
     
  10. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Somebody needs to track JJ Abrams down and ask him cause this "To EU or not to EU" debate is getting crazy. Though most likely his response will be "I can't say" and we'll all go crazy but still...its a start.
     
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  11. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2000
    He's got more important things to do like make a movie :p
     
  12. Darth Claire

    Darth Claire Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 21, 2012
    He has time to answer questions. He's been doing a lot of interviews lately...but I guess its the interviewers who have more important things to ask than whether an EU (which they may or may not even know exists) will be included.
     
  13. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Instead of making sure that he nails reintroducing Luke, Leia, Han, and their crew into the saga spotlessly we, instead, have him reading up on Vergere...
     
  14. themetresgained

    themetresgained Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2013
    *gigglesnort*

    Yeah look I care more about whether or not he captures the spirit of the saga more than EU stuff. As much as I love the EU.
     
  15. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Agreed. Regardless of any "extra" material that I am, in fact, a fan of... the ONLY thing they cannot screw up is going seemlessly from ROTJ into 7. The rest is either bonus or casualties.
     
  16. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    They will only actively be running in tandem if the 'B' universe gets new material.

    He will just follow Disney's lead of ignoring the fans. That's the easiest way to insert Ironman into the ST.
     
  17. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Maybe some guys at Disney are still debating what exactly should happen to the EU?

    Another theory is that they plan to ditch it but want to keep it a secret for now as to not hurt DHs sales.

    In any case Abrams is not the go-to guy for questions about the EU. That would be Kathy.
     
  18. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Exactly.
     
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  19. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    Kathy Kennedy is not writing the script for the film. Nor is she directing the film. Why would she have any say at all?
     
  20. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    She is the one deciding what happens with the EU, whether we will get parallel universes or a cutoff or whatever. Abrams however has NO say on the matter.
     
  21. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Kennedy wanted Abrams so bad he could easily re-write EP7 so in fact Arndt has spent the last 4 months doing re-writes so the EU will stay intact :D.....
     
  22. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    I detect much optimism in this one. :p
     
  23. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    Agreed. To fit his optimistic appraisal, I only need edit one word...

    :p
     
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  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Vader's OT midichlorian count would be the same as it was in TPM. A hypothesized loss of power/potential from physical injury doesn't have to be the result of lost midichlorians, and in fact there is no source which specifically establishes that a drop in "total midichlorians" causes a loss of power. As far as not being able to hurt Palpatine, I find that the novelization's "you do not even want to" reads like a hedge. Perhaps Palpatine is simply strong enough in the Force to protect himself against such an attack. We may recall Obi-Wan's Force push standoff with Anakin, who had a higher midichlorian count. I find it notable that the only thing not wrecked in the surgical center just happened to be a Sith Master.
     
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  25. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Yes, the midichlorian counts they discuss are per cell. We are not told that adding up all the midichlorians from each cell equates to any meaningful number. Besides, Yoda is stronger with the Force than other Force sensitive beings that are much larger than him. Obi-Wan: "Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high." Qui-Gon: "No one does."
     
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