Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    You're right that it's a much, much bigger problem than what I'm suggesting, but given the involvement of Kinberg in E7, the spinoffs and Rebels, the sense is that this is going to be a massive multimedia event over the next seven years. Seriously, it'll dwarf the current EU in terms of visibility by at least an order of magnitude. So if there's the Thrawn trilogy and a few of the more recent paperbacks in a corner somewhere, they'll be overshadowed by a huge display with the new E7 tie-in novel published by DPW.
  2. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    ...I don't see anything in this that's an actual reply to what I said. All the examples in the world of supposedly more cohesive continuities - not all of which are actually being supported - don't do anything to contradict the fact that an explicit Watsonian destruction of the old EU is not going to solve any problems and creates several.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Oct 3, 2013
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Maybe the post-ROTJ is now a holodrama set inside the real universe, the movieverse.
  4. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    erm you said "the nature of Star Wars continuity will be changed" and I said "I don't think the continuity scheme will be changed". Then provided examples of how single continuities are en vouge in multi-media franchises and therefore, by using examples, implying that it's not likely to be changed back to disconnected continuities by Star Wars. Since connected continuities are so popular now and all.

    I could go back and bold the first part if you want!
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Oct 3, 2013
  5. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Well, that's a fair point - though as you yourself mention, Amazing Spider-Man hasn't actually lived up to that, and, really, neither has Star Trek. But one thing we've explicitly been told several times is that Star Wars will have a much tighter continuity going forward. That doesn't sound like they're planning to really bother about keeping the old EU in-continuity, and certainly not by wiping out everything that happened in it.
  6. Artoo-Dion Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2009
    star 4
    I can't see there being an in-universe reboot if only because it'll make the continuity even more convoluted with no real payoff.
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  7. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    That is also entirely possible they'll just toss the old post ROTJ-EU but goes back to the "boo, angry fans!" hole they could be stepping in. And, yes, I do agree that all that Story Team jazz (also rumors of a "Rebels" character popping up in Ep. 7, there's your new EU right there) will keep the connected Star Wars continuity going forward. It's the Heir to the Empire onward portion (or the Truce at Bakrua portion forward if you wanna look at it as a Star Wars timeline) that, if it's not used, how is worked into the "single continuity" canon scheme? I don't see the disconnected continuity route happening at all.

    All that being said, I do expect to see the EU pop up in the ST era eventually but maybe a sideways backwards way. Like, say, Luke is married to a Mara Jade Skywalker but she's, like, a transgender Sullistan Sith Lord or something. But, hey, they called it Mara Jade! Stuff like that. Also, this is just a feeling, "Heir to the Empire" is pretty darn popular and I can seeing that eventually being adapted in some sort of medium in a few years. But what will the end result of it be to tie it towards Ep. 7 as opposed to the original founding of the post ROTJ EU.

    Meh, only payoff is, like at the core of all reboots, "It happened and then it didn't but the stuff you have still counts." that's the whole point of Abrams' Star Trek reboot and having Spock and Nero basically invade from the TNG era.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Oct 3, 2013
  8. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I'm utterly baffled as to why you seem to think that "splitting" the continuity is going to anger fans more than eradicating the old post-ROTJ EU. Speaking for myself, if it happens that, due to future films, Knights of the Old Republic (which I'm using as an example because I like a whole lot more then the post-ROTJ EU, the fate of which I regard with a "meh") becomes non-canon, that would be too bad. But it would be much worse to be told that, due to some event, the stuff I liked had literally been erased from existence in-universe than merely to be told "it didn't happen in this version of the story".

    Again, it's worth noting that all of your examples are not particularly concerned about working in the old continuity. Abrams Trek, for instance, may have spun off from the "original" reality in-universe, but while that continues to be a plot point no one really cares that much about making it strictly adhere to previous Trek except where time travel would have changed things. And note that Trek '09 was at some pains to indicate that the original timeline had not been wiped out of existence, despite this contradicting what we had usually seen before in Star Trek time travel. The one real case of the sort of thing you're arguing for is DC Comics, and they've been slowly declining in sales at least in part because of a long-lasting cycle of reboots.
  9. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Sorry in advanced for the tl;dr

    I think we'll see something like Marvel's multiverses... that will mostly focus on the new continuity created by the sequel trilogy. Not so much to preserve the old or publish new stuff for it, though that could happen on somethings I suppose, but to allow Disney the option of a future reboot 30-50 years from now if they need to take it. I hope, many old eu is allowed to continue, but not holding my breath

    I think this new universe will mostly do its own thing, but when it can it will incorporate the old EU (mostly characters, some plot points). So Jiana Solo might become Nomi Jiana Solo, she will be a mixture of Lucas's outline/draft(s) and Jiana from the EU; how they balance her mixture though will be the result of how detailed Lucas's draft of her was, how well she was written by him (if poorly or too another kinda poorly written/weak female character in typicial Star Wars fashion than Disney will want her more like the EUs Jiana than let's Lucas's Nomi (stab in the dark at the name)), and of course how conflicting the two general plots are with said two women (so if she goes ds in the films can that event be triggered by the death of a younger brother/loved one like it was in the EU, if so capitailize on it but if not than see if there is other ways to capitalize on the EUs Jiana like learning from Boba Fett or becoming know for her lightsaber/piloting skills etc...

    Good example, just finally got around to watching Arrow and realized that the main character (Green Arrow) has a sister who modeled after his comicbook forms second sidekick (an hiv positive girl nicknamed speedy). Now though this sister starts dating the first comicbook sidekick of Green Arrow, and he wants to track him down and become his side kick, so she in love with him decides to do so too not realizing she's looking for her brother... who nicknamed her speedy as a kid because she was impossible to catch/keep up with and her middle name is the original speedy's first name. So really she is just a mix of the old continuity character and an original character, so her origin is slightly different and she loses her hiv (though that could still happen) but end result is a huge nod to the old continuity but leaving the writers tons of room to do what they want. Yes, I realize Green Arrow is DC and not Marvel but its a great example of a book character and a tv show original character becoming one character.

    Clearly the closer we get to the Clone Wars the safer the EU will be due to Disney not focusing here and likely would rather just borrow from the EU as a basis of where to start a character then run their own way with said character in Rebels and potential spinoffs. Unless they choose to recast the OT characters for spinoffs focusing on the original big 3 vs the Empire than most Rebellion time period EU will receive the next least modifactions/reimaginings. And post RotJ on getting the most due to likely plot/time line conflicts. So characters like Mara Jade and Corran Horn will, if featured, have less modifactions the earlier in the timeline than say later in life which could be worlds apart.

    Where as the likely main protagonists (Jiana, Jacen, Anakin S, Ben, Allana) will be the most modified since things as simple as a new birth year can have huge EU changes. So let's say an extreme modifaction is needed to work these kids to becoming based on the EU since lets say Lucas wanted the Solo's to have two daughters and a son, like his kids (suppose now though its three daughters)... so Disney says great but notices one of these girls goes ds and the two girls are closer in age to each other than the brother, so she gets the Battlestar Galaticia Starbuck sex swap and modeled after Jacen and the EU twins both now become girls and the brother due to the girls being in their late teens becomes older than them, so Leia has the twins not as her first kids but second and third. So Jiana remains the oldest twin, the other twin is mostly modeled Jacen Solo, and the oldest kid is modeled after Anakin Solo being the confident hero type wanting to do right.

    They could also approach this big family method, let's say Lucas only wrote about two kids (one for Luke, and one for Leia/Han). Then a solution is simple, make it 4 kids for the Solo's (5 if you want to include Allana) and 2 for Luke, with the new ones being based on the EU children for the big 3. Simply then focus on the two Lucas wanted to as the protagonists and cameo the others as much as possible without being too intrusive... cause they'd make great spinoff characters, not to mention the freedom it would give the writers for the inevitable Post Sequel Trilogy.

    So, in short, I believe Disney will 'nuke' the EU timeline post RotJ but will borrow at times heavily from it, especially in the characters/planets/tech/ships department but not so much in the plot department beyond what they want to adapt in. I think book wise the post RotJ timeline is already toast and never coming back (wish some series had better ends though) comic wise I'm unsure since Darkhorse still has about 15 months left in their deal... I love Legacy series 2 though, will cry when/if it gets cut short of a full run. This maybe wishful thinking on my part though, since I do want the EU redone even though I love it, its just become too bloated in places with too many weaker authors tying the hands of better authors. I think characters will survive though from the old EU, no matter how changed they may become because characters in the end are what attract fans so the most popular EU ones will imho like for the most part all appear. Let's say Katarn just gets a face appearance till someone later chooses to adopt him in further since Disney decides a two decade old video game character doesn't need more and one of the protagonists is already the 'Solo with a lightsaber' so Katarn would be twos a crowd... where as Corran Horn might get afew whole minutes of screen time if the need a Jedi to help solve a murder or fly an X-wing or somesuch since his back story supports both options.

    I believe this since Disney is on record saying VII will be an original story but also said Star Wars' 16k characters would be used to inspire their writers, this supports both comments. I've also stated and believe Yoda's 'always in motion is the future' comment could make the old eu a what should have been alternate future... so the old EU gets legitimized but the new stories can mostly continue without issue
    Last edited by Ryus, Oct 3, 2013
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Actually, there's nothing specifically supporting this interpretation at the moment. Wait till Episode 7 comes out, then we'll know. But at the moment, Splinter is exactly on the same level of canon as any EU book, the Ewok movies are exactly the same level (C-canon) as the books, so is The Force Unleashed, and the Marvel comics are on a slightly lower level (S-canon) but still considered valid sources for the introduction of material into books.
  11. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5

    The Trek reboot does fit into the whole "Star Trek Universe" box (even though time travel in Trek wiped out timelines forevermore in earlier Trek series. That possible contradiction is explained away in a Trek novel, actually). Now they don't have to worry (mostly) about fitting into canon because it's disconnected on it's own, which is the freedom the time-travel reboot gave them. (Of course, a subset of this argument is Why-Is-Khan-White-British-Guy in Into Darkness since he wasn't that before Nero showed up but that's a whole nother kettle of fish... which is about to possibly be explained in the "Khan" IDW mini-series!)

    I can't speak for how larger fandom would react, only how it works for me. Comics do this stuff all the time and people are still there, and those reboot stories sell like hotcakes. It doesn't bother me that there's a story that erases it, that makes it all fit into the same box. Spiting into EU and Ep. 7 continuities I don't think is an option because I can't see the two separate lines continuing side by side. Gotta have that synergistic single continuity that people dig.

    It boils down to Star Wars has a single continuity. Star Wars, in the future, will continue to have a single continuity. There's that middle chunk which will not be used in Ep. 7. How does a single continuity hold together with those disparate elements? What about that middle chunk? How would it work in the grand continuity of Star Wars if the film series won't use it at all? What do you do about it? It won't continue. It can't. Movies say differently. There won't be Fresh Books that are different, the Fresh Books, comics, videogames, and TV series and so forth will work in lockstep with the ST. But the single continuity will be there in the future. How do you make these completely different things fit together?

    The reason just saying "Non-canon" I think it actually worse than "in universe reboot" is because Lucasfilm saying "non canon!" is a guy, on a website, posting something, saying "It's not canon" is not a part of the aforementioned fictional universe. That, to me, is more irritating because it breaks the reality of the story. Universe reboots have a reason that happen inside of that reality. That's why I like 'em. It's an acknowledgement of what came before, even though while also acknowledging it can no longer be sustained.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Oct 3, 2013
  12. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Well, I guess there's nothing more to say here. I think you're wrong in how fans would see it, and I certainly think it's not what Lucasfilm and Disney are going to do.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Oct 4, 2013
  13. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    OMG, that's the best thing I've read in a while! [face_laugh]
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  14. I Are The Internets Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I do hope Mara Jade goes away. She sounds like such a pest.
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  15. Vicarious Fan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2013
    star 1
    well the fans that actually read the comics and books are a very very small percentage of the total fan base, like 1%.

    Honestly if the new Sequel Trilogy is good then the majority of those fans won't care. Yes there will be a small percentage of that small percentage who rage about it but eventually they will get over it.

    Lucasfilm did it before when they made the Prequel trilogy and fans adjusted to it.

    Its like what Marvel did with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. There were some hardcore fans that absolutely hated it and probably will never buy another marvel comic again.

    But compared to the 1 billion that movie made at the box office alone it doesn't really matter.
    Last edited by Vicarious Fan, Oct 4, 2013
  16. I Are The Internets Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    You're from the future?! Who do I marry?
  17. Vicarious Fan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2013
    star 1
    Fixed it.
  18. I Are The Internets Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Aw man I liked the original comment better!
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  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Fans of other things aren't as passionate as Star Wars fans? LOL. Last time I checked Marvel and DC (for example) didn't through a dark time......

    So the marvel comics and Ewok movies aren't canon, so it isn't one big time line.......

    And you think there is a big retcon coming......but I thought Star Wars cared to much for that.......

    Why end it and start new? No reason to end it. No reason multi. continuities can't exist. They have trans media empires and products that don't share one continuity, whyw ould Star Wars be any different? If anything having multi/ continuities means they can make MORE money.
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  20. Vicarious Fan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2013
    star 1

    Yes with out a doubt Star Wars fans are the most passionate out there. Did you ever see a Marvel fan say Stan Lee ruined my childhood?

    The Ewok movies are canon. But yes it is still one big time line. If it doesn't fit into the time line its not canon. See Marvel, DC, Star Trek have multiple time lines and alternate realities and the such.

    When did I ever say that Star Wars cared too much for a retcon? I'm not sure you actually took the time to read what I wrote.

    "Multis" as you put it doesn't mean more money. Having one continuity allows them to sell more because those who want the whole story will buy it.

    And no there is no such thing as Trans media with out continuity. The definition of Trans media is telling one story over multiple mediums.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    At least one character from the Ewok movies (specifically, Cindel Towani) and many characters from the Marvel comics, have appeared in later novels.

    It's never been a case of "They were declared non-canon in the latest EU works".
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  22. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I'm well aware of that. What I've been saying is that those fans who do care about the EU are likely to be much more upset by a Crisis on Infinite Earths-style retcon that wipes out the whole thing in-universe than by it simply being declared non-canon. It's like the difference between canceling a TV series, and canceling it with everyone dying in the last episode.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Oct 4, 2013
  23. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    I dig those endings! It's like, "Hey, how did the show end?" "Eh, not much, it was cancelled" vs. "Hey, how did the show end?" "They all spontaneously combusted, it was the craziest thing I ever saw!"
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  24. Vicarious Fan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2013
    star 1
    It wouldn't be a crisis on infinate earths type retcon. They would just simple produce the new movie and say all the books and comics after ROTJ aren't canon. Kind of like how when they made the prequels a lot of stuff became non canon. They didn't come up with a weird story on how Boba Fetts back story changed they just did it.
  25. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    That's what I expect to happen. But BigAl6ft6 keeps arguing that they should do an in-universe story that retcons the old EU away in favor of the new one. That's what I've been arguing against.