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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

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  1. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Gungi from the Clone Wars would've made more sense to mention imho. Lumpy is still forever mocked due to his ugly faceand assocation with the Chirstmas Special.
     
  2. Darth_Henning

    Darth_Henning Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Gungi didn't exist when The Unifying Force was written. And why would a random wookiee take over Chewie's life debt? It makes much more sense for his son and nephew to. (And since Lowie is a Jedi, is essentially a modern version of Gungi)
     
  3. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Chewie would have to be dead, Luke would have to have a kid, Han and Leia have to have 3 kids, they would have had to had fought off an invasion that changed the landscape of the central power centre of the galaxy. What if the filmmakers don't want to do that? That's restrictive if they have to be beholden to the idea that other writers have set out before them. If they want Luke living in a cave for 4 decades medidating and Han and Leia never had kids, they can't do that because it didn't happen in the novels. There's too many things that happened. And, even if Luke has a kid, they have to make the wife Mara Jade, etc. And then take that character's entire history into account. It's too much backstory for the filmmakers to take into consideration if they want to write their own storyline. Dropping moons on Wookies in a tie-in novel do not make for a cohesive universe that filmmakers can play in decades later.

    Anything that happened in the novels which has to be held to in the films is, by definition, a restriction to their creative process. Because all they should be concerned with is what ideas they have for after the credits rolled in ROTJ. Not the other stuff. Not their job.
     
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  4. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Lowie and Lumpy... two forever mocked EU wookies. One set up by the Chistmas Special, the other by an author who was his own Chistmas Special... sorry but Kevin J Anderson is arguably one of the worst EU authors ever. Lowie has barely been used... Fate of the Jedi choose instead to add in a new master Jedi Wookiee just to avoid using Lowie too much due to fan disstain over him. Next off why would Cheweis life debt need to be taken over... and what if this Han Solo origin film retcons the lifedebt?

    Sorry but I highly doubt the entirity of the EU will be kept, Disney's CEO stated the EU's characters, planets, and 20k year timeline would be used to inspire new stories by their writers. Not that they'd write around the EU. Note: he never stated stories would be used... only planets (locations), characters (likely including some general back history and/or tone but in new stories), and long history (likely implying KotOR time period and its kind)... if The Clone Wars is any hint ship designs will carry over too and all its EU characters that made it in that show where modified quite a bit, in many cases overriding EU novels. They made Barris Offee into a liberal terrorist bomber after all...

    As an EU fan I appricate the effort you put into your idea to keep the EU alive on atleast some level but sadly I don't see keeping Lowie or Lumpy as making them any more money than they would already nor any writer worth his weight in salt being inspired to write a story about those two. I do however see other characters from the EU making them money (like Gungi who was very well received in his 5ish episodes)... but Chewie being dead, yeah that will likely lose them money (he's too iconic to just get a death mention and replacement in the same scene, I can see diehard Chewie fans walking out of the theater if that happens followed by internet raging for the next 10 years and swearing its all Disney's fault, especially movie only Chewie fans). On top of all this some EU stories are just horrible and deserve to be retconned...
     
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  5. Darth_Henning

    Darth_Henning Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2007
    So it determines who married who and who has how many kids. Oh and one wookiee is dead.

    That's not exactly limiting any actual plot outside of family relationships. Its not actually all that much to take into consideration. A ten minute meeting would cover everything that's relevant to being able to the backstories.



    And I can honestly say that that's the first time I've ever heard of any disdain for Lowie. Most people I've seen comment actually continuously ask why he's not used more. Lumpy gets jokes from the name, but as a character who's never appeared outside of the Christmas special, kinda hard to define.

    That aside, I fail to see why its hard for people to accept that in the space of 20-30 years...a character may have died. GASP! (and Chewie's presence or absence I doubt will make a whit of difference in ticket sales. Nor a significant dent in toy or spin-off merch sales.)

    And that work-around didn't take any actual 'effort' to figure out. It took 30 seconds of looking at a timeline, and thinking "oh well look at that". Nor would it take much effort to competently write around.
     
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  6. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Yeah, that is, by definition, a restriction against what story they want to tell. Because those events have to had happened. They already have to work inside the framework of the Star Wars movies, they shouldn't have to work inside the tie-in novel framework as well.
     
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  7. Darth_Henning

    Darth_Henning Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2007
    A pretty minimal restriction. And one that (other than the dead wookiee) is one that will probably be followed anyway.

    There is no logical reason why they couldn't work within the novel framework other than a simple unwillingness to accept that other people's work and vision may be as valid as their own. You could make an argument for Lucas having ultimate creative decision as he created the universe (though I personally feel he lost that right once he allowed other people to write in it) but now that that's no longer the case, there's no argument for it other than hubris on the part of the writers that their idea is by necessity the best possible one.

    Star Wars has been the only multi-author franchise that has managed to have a single, mostly-coherent timeline for an extended period of time without time travel, alternate universes, reboots, etc. To lose that over simple profit motive and hubris, when it is easy to maintain that rather unique standing truly disgusts me. When someone can come up with a solution in their spare time that allows 30 years of history to coexist with something new, it amazes me that the people who are paid to do this are unwilling or incapable of doing the same.

    I recognize that its most likely that hubris and profit will win out (and I will have precisely zero interest in any of the 'new' continuity), but I feel that someone should point out that it is in no way necessary and actually quite easy to avoid.
     
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  8. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

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    Nov 12, 2012
    Well, they have to believe the story they're telling is the next step for these characters . And it would be way beyond minimal if, theoretically, if they want to tell a story where Chewbacca being alive is central to the plot, Han and Leia never had kids, and Luke has a 17 year old daughter, they simply can't do that because novels.
     
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  9. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004

    Except that the ST is Lucas's idea, not some random writers'. Lucas never acknowledged the EU as being a part of the universe he created, and there's no reason that he should lose the right to his own ideas just because he let other people tell stories in a universe that's related to but not his own. There's no hubris involved in not wanting to be restricted by the works of other (read: lesser) authors, and how you can claim the EU wouldn't be a restriction is beyond me. Simply put, far too much has happened in the galaxy and in the lives of these characters to just write off in a couple of throwaway lines.
     
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  10. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Its not a question of rationality or acceptance of possibility. Its a question of capitalzing on an iconic character for profit beyond what could already be made from just VII and selling to peoples irrational passion for these characters via merchandice after the film.

    Disney, like Lucas before them, is here for profit. They know new timelines are accepted with just about everyother franchise and Star Wars has already had two full blown reboots (Marvel comics and Prequals changing things) not to mention the Clone Wars also messing with things here and there too. So why now will the EU remain as it is?

    Logically a fan with a lot of passion for an iconic character would be upset with an offscreen death and what they will view as brush off replacement. These fans will logically demand what's the point of this, there is more movie fans than EU fans... let them deal with Chewie being alive instead of us dealing with him being dead. Any argument counter to agreeing to them will be ignored and viewed with distain.

    Now as to EU fans we where always warned we where lower in the continuity heiracry. The EU version Boba Fett was already massivly changed after Attack of the Clones just turned him into a clone. We dwelt with it and, mostly, have moved on... and still buy the product. At the end of the day minor EU characters (and for Lowie who hasnt been important since the Young Jedi Knights when you get down to it) have less impact than a Movie character who's arguably one of the top ten... replacing Chewie with Lowie is bad business... at least it they do it right away and say Chewie died 20 years ago. Best to replace him, if they're going to, far later in the trilogy (either though his death or just fading away after Han dies).

    Look, I want EU characters in the ST... I love tons of them. However killing Chewie off before VII ever begins is foolhardy... and why is Peter getting his knees replaced just to be in VII again if Chewie isn't in it... (not to mention the casting all for a 7'3" actor just a week after he went into surgery)
     
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  11. Darth_Henning

    Darth_Henning Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Those weren't reboots though. But anyway. I give up. It seems everyone is committed to the idea "ignore everything thats been done and pick and choose whatever the writers feel fits their creative vision".

    I can't abide it, don't agree with it, and will not support it financially if that's the direction taken. But I'm just one voice.

    So I've seen.
     
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  12. Ryus

    Ryus Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 25, 2013


    Yes, they where EU reboots at the time they where retconned (especially with the Marvel comics)... its just that the continuity people made as much as they could cannon again later and your looking through it from that perspective, the Marvel comics retconned themselves after Empire to make Vader into Lukes dad for crying out loud. With the prequals they actually forbid novels till after the movies to prevent further overrides (though a good amount did reboot that was written prior) like what happened to the Marvel comics.

    The Marvel Comics are S-class cannon to non cannon. Except specfic moments referenced in higher cannon. Just as all plot points in conflict with the prequals are where made non cannon, unless made to fit again later.

    The difference between now and then though is that Disney doesn't want to be limited to one major project at a time but instead multiple projects at once including a trilogy, 2-3 spin-off films, at least one tv show, plus Darth Vader TV specials. One project at a time allows them to slowly overwrites cannon but at the same time connect what they can behind it shortly later. Now however with all these projects is that even possible? Disney is doing too much to simply make everything work, especially when all previous major projects never tried to accomidate the EU too much though a few bones where thrown at the EU (such as Corsucant in name only being the capital, when its description was entirly changed)

    If your being snide from your point of view perhaps this is true... if you want to go down that road tough there is a flipside that paints your reaction in much the same light.

    However my general comment was geared at examples of the Revan/Exile fans reacting to their much lessoned role in TOR going from champ to chumps, or Mara Jade fans to her death that made no sense to the prophecy from their pov, or Boba Fett fans pointing at Lucas admitting he in hindesight would have more capitaized on his character had he realized his popularity. Think on that last one for a bit, then Chewie...
     
  13. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Poor Chewie. All his life in self-chosen bondage. I would like to think that after ROTJ he has fulfilled his life-debt.
     
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  14. Darth_Henning

    Darth_Henning Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2007
    That's not a reboot though. Its not saying that "Ok, nothing we did before counted, and we're starting over from complete scratch. If we like something we'll use it, otherwise its dead." it was saying "ok, these parts of it didn't work with what's been done now, so they don't count, but the general storyline still does." Less so with Marvel in the modern EU, but still not a hard reboot. A reboot is like the new batman trilogy is to the old 80s and 90s movies, or the new bonds. Sadly there's no comparable example to what the EU did.

    There is plenty of ability to do multiple projects while maintaining continuity. That's why Leland Chee and the Holocron exist in the first place. So the writers can say "hey, has X been done or doe it work" and he can give them enough background information to go back to work and do their thing. Not to mention Pablo and others who are similarly informed on the subject of canon. The story team will have multiple people on it who know about the existing EU canon, and if they're going to refer to them to approve all future projects and make sure they all fit together, what difference is there in making sure they fit with all the past projects as well other than a sightly longer meeting?

    What happens 20 years from now when the spin-off material from Episodes VII-IX is too overwhelming and the guys writing Episode X-XII decide "oh lets just scrap that and start over again because no one paid too much attention to that spin-off universe either.

    I admit that was frustration speaking. It seems like many fans are assuming that its a necessity to overwrite the existing EU to get people to watch the sequel trilogy. It isn't in any way shape or form. Its a choice.

    New fans who have never seen Star Wars won't notice any difference in the films either way. Film-only fans will only marginally notice a difference, and probably ignore it anyway unless they know the EU. The EU fans are the only ones who are actually affected by the decision, and have something taken away from them by overwriting the material. No one gains anything from it. If the writers can't craft a good story with some minor limitations, I doubt they'll be able to craft a good one without limitations.

    Really. Are people going to boycott the movie because Chewie isn't in it? Somehow I very much doubt that. Are viewers going to be up in arms because Luke married Mara and Han and Leia have three kids and one died? Not likely. Will at least some portion of EU fans avoid the movie and future EU if they reboot? At least one, and I suspect others. Disney will gain the same number of fans regardless of whether they try to work around the EU or not; people who haven't read it won't even be aware of the difference. But they will lose fans by not doing so.

    Again though, increasing details about characters and their evolution isn't the same as saying "nope that never happened, THIS did instead because....i like it better" Which is really what this comes down to.
     
  15. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Chosen One star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004

    It's a bit more complicated than that though, isn't it? Chewy died, one child died, another turned to the Dark Side and killed Mara Jade. The entire galaxy has changed after an extragalactic invasion, etc. That's a lot for anyone to process, and watching the saga from 1-9, it becomes a drastic departure in the storytelling method to have missed out on that many momentous events.
     
  16. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Yes. There's simply zero chance any of that stuff carries over into the ST.

    And also: the ST will not be losing fans. It will be gaining a whole new generation of fans. And the new EU will as well. Any loss in unhappy old-EU fans will be miniscule to the amount picked up by ST, Rebels, and new games and books.
     
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  17. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 4, 2012
    I don't really think a life debt can be fulfilled, but I certainly think that it does not really require a proud warrior to stoop down to being a nanny for little kids.
    I'm pretty sure Chewbacca will be back. I just don't see them killing him off-screen and having the crawl say "Oh and yeah, by the way, a moon kind of fell on Chewie's head so he's not in this one."
     
  18. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Maybe Chewie gets it in the ST, but I even find that improbable. More likely one of the human Big 4 will get it. Probably Han. Lando can't die he drinks too much good liquor. Killing Leia is like offing your grandma. Luke may die, but not until the end.

    Han dead by E8? Bet on it.

    Killing someone who can't speak just seems cruel (gronk!).
     
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  19. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    As a writer myself, all I can say is this: if you insist that a writer must create his story within the storytelling bounds created by other writers who worked from the assumption that story would never exist, or else he's doing something wrong ... actually, I'm honestly not certain what to say to that, because it's pretty bizarre. Certainly not constraints I'd ever either want to work with or force someone else to work with.
     
  20. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    This is one of the rare ocassions where I will use the "general audience" argument, since 99% of the EU is not known to them. Like it or not, we dedicated fans are a minority and those who would be genuinely upset if EU was thrown out the door are a minority within a minority.
    Not a lot of people are going to be bothered by the fact that a portion of a fictional universe is now more fictional than it used to be, since it's not canon or whatever.
    I know I won't be upset in the slightest. I've had my fun with the EU while growing up, I don't consider these dozens of SW books and comics on my shelves to have been a waste of money. I enjoyed them immensely, but I really don't see myself ever opening any of those novels again.
     
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  21. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Yeah, I share this sentiment. Although I've enjoyed my fair share of EU books, I've always considered them a lower level of fictional reality to the movies. They're a fun distraction, but that's all. In no way would I ever want the movies to tie themselves to the events created there. Because the movies are the primary form for Star Wars. That will never change.
     
  22. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    I would also argue that it is quite possible that new material, which might be considered EU, will continue to emerge only in the form of animated or live action series, various shorts and features.
    Comics and books will continue to exist, of course, but they will take the back seat.
     
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  23. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Aw, how can you not love this face?
    [​IMG]
    [face_love]
     
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  24. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    [​IMG]
    Your EU is dead son. Accept it.
     
  25. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    If I had enough socks, I would like this post a hundred times.

    Having him be the nanny is just wrong.

    But even more wrong were the Noghri bodyguards. That was all kinds of messed up and not what I'd expect from Leia Organa.
     
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