ST Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Canon tweet from Pablo, it makes you think we should have a combined Saga/TV forum

https://twitter.com/infinata/status/408628496756264960

 

I agree 100%.

The movies will be aimed at casual fans, who are not vested in the EU and focus only on the movies, TCW and games. Majority, if not all, post ROTJ EU will be ignored. Disney might use characters and locations, but not back stories.

 

No. Just because he said movies and TV shows are all canon doesn't mean we should have a combined Saga/TV forum. It would be too much in one place.

 

Pablo Hidalgo ?Infinata 12 Sep
@StarWarsJedinyt Hadn't heard that before. The heart of the canon is Episodes I-VI and TCW.

TCW will not be thrown out, it along with Rebels, is considered equal to the movies, and Pablo is the one in charge of coordinating stories, and canon, now, and in the future.

TCW will not be ignored, because it's not EU

 

I'm assuming TFU is not considered cannon, then.

 

In the future though stories from one will lead, into, or have an impact on the other, say someone wants to discuss that thread, should they discussit, in bothe the TV, and Saga forums? Sat an adventure from a TV series, has an impact, on something in a movie, where do we discuss it, TV Forum, or Saga fprum?
Or do we discuss it, in both, Disney will want to have multiple series on the air, netflix, as well network shows for ABC, DisneyXD, with the movies eventually matching the Marvel output.

 

Also, please remember, that when they will set Episode VII 30-40 years after RotJ, and they will ignore current EU, they will probably tell new stories set in those times. SOMETHING happened off-screen, it's just their decision if they want to take what was written already, or create something new that will fit new Trilogy.

I grew up with Jaina Solo and I don't want her to be erased from Star Wars universe...

But the story of TFU is created by George Lucas, so it should be G-canon, right?

 

Quite.

But Lucas is no longer running the show.

 

TFU is not G-canon. Only the six main episodes and official statements by Lucas are G-canon. Games are C-canon, or continuity canon, the same canon level as most EU novels.

 

He's just the one who wrote the treatments, and he's admitted that he doesn't read the books, or comics, when he wrote the new treatments, he used Leland, and Pablo, as references for characters, planets, companies, and so on, the story would still be his story, Arndt would have expanded the treatment, and JJ, and Kasdan, are polishing up the shooting script, but it's still George's story.

George Lucas on TCW

"This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK, seemingly implying that the events of Clone Wars are top canon, which makes some sense considering how closely Lucas himself has been working on the series.

"This is Star Wars, and I don’t make a distinction between [Clone Wars] and the films," Lucas said in an interview released by SciFiNow - a science-fiction enthusiast magazine based in the UK, seemingly implying that the events of Clone Wars are top canon, which makes some sense considering how closely Lucas himself has been working on the series.
-Mike

 

I specifically suggested setting this after NJO and before LOTF for two reasons - age of actors matches almost exactly, and really LOTF and FOTJ are impossible to explain. Even to EU fans who haven't read the books. (the place of those in a film-dominated future even I concede is extremely difficult to manage, and though I actually didn't mind them, would consider if that was all of the EU that was over-ruled to at least be a reasonable concession)

Explaining that chewie and one son died during a war isn't really all that complicated. In fact, touching on Han's grief would add an interesting depth of character to show how he's matured with time.(The Invasion I grant is a difficult subject, but the subject can be mostly be avoided simply by showing the rebuilding of coruscant post-war, without detailed specifics)

Storytelling doesn't become any different really. No more so than if you see the PT first than the OT. Somehow the senate was dissolved, all the clones disappeared, now there's a rebellion with soldiers? when did all this happen?

The mistake that a lot of people assume is that the casual viewers have to be told every detail about what happened between the OT and now. They don't. Whether they invent a new EU or go with the old one, some implication that "something happened the last 30 years" has to be made. Just like in Ep IV Obi-wan didn't need a half-hour exposition dump to explain "years ago you fought for my father in the clone wars" we don't need that for the ST to reference the EU either.

No event has to be explained from the EU - not Thrawn, Daala, Thracken Sal-solo, or even the Vong (beyond perhaps a sentence about Coruscant's terraforming). No non-skywalker character is required appear - more diversity is good anyway. The only details from there that must jump to the screen are the makeup of the Skywalker/Solo family and Chewie being dead. With that done, you have a pretty much blank galaxy that's now a peace where a threat can come from....wherever the writers so choose in any way shape or form.

And new fans of the ST and EU will come regardless of whether or not the EU is kept or gotten rid of. Which brings the point - what's to gain by getting rid of it?

The General Audience is a fair argument. One that I think actually runs the other way. Since 99% of people aren't aware of what happened in the EU, they aren't going to notice any difference between and Ep VII which doesn't conflict the EU and one that doesn't, other than Chewie being dead.

And really, despite the fact that Chewie is a loveable character, he's never been a necessary character to the plot. Look at his appearances and what happens if there's no Chewie:

EP III - any wookiee could have filled the role he had, other than a funny "oh hey that guy" there's no need for him

EP IV - in the cantina, Obiwan could just meet Han - no need for a co-pilot to be present
- escaping tatooine - have the ship already running when Luke/Obi arrive, and the scene plays the same
- Admittedly we lose the "let the wookiee win" bit, but that's no plot changer
- Death Star - have Han or luke as a stormtrooper escorting the other as a prisoner, they open fire on arriving to the detention blocks -plays exactly the same all the way through their escape to Yavin
- Death Star battle - Han has an attack of conscience w/o copilot influence, and same scene. (Heck same medal ceremony)

EP V - everything on hoth occurs exactly the same way, except a rebel tech is helping han fix the falcon instead
- Nothing on the way to Cloud City changes, other than han doing more hands-on repair
- Cloud City plays out almost exactly the same way, other than rather than chewie finding the blasted 3PO, Lando drops it off and says "isn't this your droid" or something
- similarly the escape from cloud city plays almost the same with leia rather than chewie flying

EP VI - rather than bringing in chewie for bounty, Leia shows up at jabba's looking for work as Bussh
- sarlacc plays the same
- on Endor, rather than him pulling on the carcass, someone trips on a rope to spring the trap
- pretty much the rest of the movie plays the same.
- the SOLE exception where he serves as a vital plot point is when he captures the AT-ST. And since there's a couple dozen rebel commandos there who disappear as soon as the battle starts I'm pretty sure a few of them could accomplish the same thing.

Yes. Chewie is a cool character to have, and I'm glad he was part of the OT and much of the EU and was saddened by his death. But he is not essential to the plot, and if his absence causes that plot to collapse...there' probably something wrong.

Similarly, if the plot of the sequel trilogy would actually be damaged by who's married to whom and who has how many kids (which is all of the EU that has to be directly addressed on screen) that's either one really weak and fragile plot to begin with, or has one heck of a lot of soap opera in it.

A name without the backstory is NOT the same character.

(emphasis mine)

Which in theory still means that the story could be written as to how he envisioned the future of the characters while still not directly contradicting the EU because he has people working for him who's job it is to figure that out.







I'm not claiming that a reboot is not a creative choice, but it is just that: a CHOICE, not a necessity to be able to write a good sequel trilogy.

If a reboot is done, the entire new tie-in EU will not be mentioned (other than who's related to who and who's alive) in the movies because it doesn't exist. Similarly, if basing it off the existing EU, the only part that needs to be addressed is who's related to who and who's alive. It works out the same in every other detail.

Given that, there is no actual need to overwrite the EU.

 

The Senate was dissolved in Episode IV, and if you're watching them in order, the logical assumption is that the stormtroopers are the clones. As for the rebellion, that's mentioned in the opening crawl, not to mention set up in Episode III when Sidious says "If the Jedi are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end." Well the Jedi aren't all destroyed, and lo and behold the first words in the opening crawl of Episode IV are "It is a period of civil war." Of course this would be the case with or without the Jedi, but it's still all there. And if nothing else, it's a perfectly logical extrapolation of the situation in which the previous movie ended, not just random huge events that happened in the mean time, and that's the big difference between that and the things you're referring to.

And yes, it is a CHOICE to tell a good story rather than be hindered by bad ones. When making new movies, every decision is a choice, so I don't know why you insist on repeating this as if it means anything. It also happens to be the right choice.

 

Except (once again), it's not that simple. Using the EU doesn't just make the writers have to use a certain number of kids, but also forces characters and dynamics upon them. What if they want Luke to be single, or have a different personality and backstory in mind for his spouse? What if they want his child to be female? What if they want to have Solo twins, but also to give them completely different characterization from Jaina and Jacen in the EU?

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with those characters, but the EU imposes a lot more constraints on the creative team than your strawman assumes.

 

I go back to the "imagine the Spike TV Marathon" argument. You can go between Ep. 3 & Ep. 4 rather smoothly, there's nothing big that happens in between those movies. If you slap the EU in the middle, the dead kid/Wookie/Intergalatic invasion history in between Ep. 6 & 7, there's no flow there. It's discordant and jarring. Heck, if you wanted to watch the entire Star Wars saga, you'd have to set aside a few months to read the entire Post ROTJ EU to hit those major beats. Who the heck has that kind of time?!

 

Yes, I didn't address character personalities, I'll grant you that. Those may suggest how the characters might react to whatever's being done, but has no affect on he actual plot or direction of the story that's being written. If the story hinges around whether Luke's child is a boy or a girl, or the kid's personalities...that's a pretty weak story.

But again, while we may need to touch on the dead wookiee, there's no need to know every detail of HOW it happened, or even address in the movies that there was an invasion to the point where anyone watching would be significantly jarred by it. Yes, seeing Han mourn his best friend will be a bit of a surprise, but in a well plotted movie, I somehow doubt that the audience would have fit wondering how it happened if his grief is properly scripted.

Unless the ST is set while the rebellion is still fighting the Empire after Palpatine's death, there's going to be major changes between the OT and the ST - new government, rebuilt jedi, etc. Not seeing one supporting character, +/- the returning cast mourning his death shouldn't be enough to make people unable to watch the movie. And if it is, there's probably troubles on other fronts.

 

One dead wookie is too much in between movies considering the last time we saw him he was sitting at a campfire and literally Lando is clapping with happiness and then Ep. 7 rolls and the Wookie is dead and Han is in mourning. That's an awful transition from the end of the last movie and tossing in Sith Lord kids and grandkids and invasions that is way too much stuff that happened off screen. There's a huge difference between a rebuilt Jedi Order, some kids, and a new government vs. a gigantic war that happened off screen and killed major characters in these people's lives. There is absolutely no way it would work in conjunction with the end of Episode 6. Too much happened. It unfairly places the onus on the viewer to go find out how/what/why these things happened, to go do homework, which is a terrible place to put the audience, the writers, and to make the movie work as a singular cinematic experience. Which is exactly what they're supposed to be.

 

Yes, because we all know how characterization is so irrelevant to good writing, don't we?

I cannot help but be intrigued by yet another correlation between avocation of keeping the old post-ROTJ EU and arrogant incomprehension of what makes for a "well-plotted movie".

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that then. But I think you do a great disservice for the average viewer to assume they're unable to understand that something can occur during a 30 year gap between movies, and that people may die while fighting a war, and still be able to follow the story.

[quote="Vthuil, post: 51175366, member: 1377003]Yes, because we all know how characterization is so irrelevant to good writing, don't we?[/quote]

When did I ever say that characterization was irrelevant to writing quality? I said that characterization does not limit what is possible to occur with the plot. Yes, character motivation is something that has to be taken into account for pretty much every decision, but the writers are going to have to craft that anyway.

 

I can see it now...

Casual movie only fan enters the theater after a short 3 paragraph opening crawl we see a Star Destroyer in orbit over Corsucant. It pans down to the planet and we pass over a gaint coral growth left by the vong. Next we see a memorial to Luke's wife followed by Lowie and Lumpy fighting over who gets the copilot seat (when Leia isn't in it that is) in the Falcon now that Chewie died 20 years ago , then Hans daughter pregnant with the new Emperor's child and he's an allied member of the Galactic Alliance and her 10 year old neice is all happy about being an aunt but then we learn that her dad went ds after his brother anakin died and was killed by his sister ... and then the casual fan walking out the theater... with his friend running after him stating there's only minimium of 60 books to read to understand all that... casual fan disavows ever having liked Star Wars...

Now that said there is no reason LFL couldn't adapt in some EU characters or planets that work with what they want to do, if they felt like it... but there is just no way the entirity of the EU is kept intact.

 

I don't see how having a giant war take place completely off screen, wherein one of the most recognizable supporting characters in the franchise is killed off screen, would benefit the story of episode 7 in any way, nor would it make the film better by incorporating the history and characters from the novels. Also I don't see a logical reason to lock the filmmakers into the characters from ROTJ and have to use the next generation from the novels along with their backstory and make the movie fit around that. The only reason that would happen would be to appease a minority of fans. The majority of the minority who will still continue to purchase Star Wars products anyway despite the fact that the film franchise did not use characters from the novels in Episode 7. I mentioned back that the overall answer to why they shouldn't abide by the post ROTJ EU is because it's restrictive to their creative process. By saving "XYZ can't be done because XXY happened in this book" is literally the definition of restricting them. And there is no reason that a viewer should have to bone up on Star Wars publishing history if they want the complete story in a movie. That's just unfair to the audience.

 

Setting it after Crucible is indeed impossible to explain (as I've agreed before), setting it after NJO is actually quite doable:

Casual move only fan enters the theater after a short 3 paragraph opening crawl. We see a Star Destroyer flanked by a Mon Cal Cruiser in orbit over Coruscant. The Falcon flies beneath (much like the shuttle in ROTJ) and we see Han and Leia discussing landing at the rebuild Jedi Temple. Han comments "much easier than when Chewie and I used to sneak in back in..." trails off and Leia offers a sad smile and pats his arm. Wipe to Falcon landing at Jedi temple, construction droids working everywhere rebuilding metal around the temple (the coral having already been cleared and Jacen having had the world brain dial back the growth before the movie). Leia, Han and Jaina are greeted by Mara and Jacen (+/- Ben) and go into the temple for an emergency meeting with Grand Master Skywalker and Chief of State Omas. Wipe inside, Omas "Your family has fought and sacrificed for peace in this galaxy the last 30 years, so I hate to call on you again but..." and introduce central villain theme. Grand Master Skywalker charges Jaina with putting together a team to investigate (since the main is supposedly a female Solo decedent) and begin with trilogy plot...

(Anakin Solo may not even need to be mentioned in the entire film if not plot relevant)

Precisely zero part of that is hard for someone who's never read a novel to comprehend.

And unless they have a burning desire to know exactly what happened to Chewie (which can be explained with a line as simple as Han saying "he died to save my son" without even needing to explain which one at that point) there is no part of it that requires them to search any alternate material.

 

I would literally walk out if the movie opened like that.

 

The thing about that scenario is you've locked the people making the movie into all of that history and all of those characters. I don't see how or why that would make the movie better. By setting in stone using the novel backstory, the people crafting the movie story couldn't come up with an idea to have, say, Han kidnapped by aliens from beyond the moon after the Ewok party and Leia not having seen him for 3 decades or whatever.

The EU history could certainly be handwaved away in exposition (but not upon the effect it had on the characters and then writing those characters who lived through that history) but we're still set with the setup from the post ROTJ novels and I can't think why they should do that. Aside from making dozens of novel continuity-minded fans happy.