Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. darthzac14 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 3
    If what your saying is true about the EU, Ben won't be killed off without "mating" for one reason alone: Cade Skywalker.
  2. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    I doubt we'll have Jaina as the main character... she's already a Jedi Master and what, thirty years old by 40 ABY? She's too old to be the protagonist about to go on a hero's journey. She could be an older mentor for the Protagonist like Obi-wan in the PT or an older hardened type like Han Solo in the OT but she can't really be the Protagonist. If anything the Sword of the Jedi story will end her character's main arc (not kill her but relegate her to those that have 'finished' their careers as it were).
  3. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Yes, but a retcon can only go so far. What if Han and Leia have a son and a daughter, twins, but who aren't called Jacen and Jaina? What if they've never had a third child (Anakin) at all? What if Luke hasn't got a son or a wife? How can these things be retconned? Granted, I am speaking hypothetically, but it’s also a reasonable thought that at least some of these things may come to pass.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EU has pretty much gone off and has been allowed to run wild for far too long now. So much has happened. Big things, too, we're not just talking one-off little stories. Too much has happened for a simple retcon here and there to be of any use. If, for example, Han and Leia have a son and a daughter who are not called Jacen and Jaina, I can’t see a retcon, but instead an obliteration of any story, or at least large chunks of any story, that have ever included Jacen or Jaina Skywalker.

    Things will no doubt be retconned that are seen as salvageable in some shape or form. I can also see many other things going the way of the dodo and, TBH, I think the majority of them will centre around Han, Leia and Luke’s offspring and their adventures.
    Last edited by Krueger, Jan 2, 2013
    Winged_Jedi likes this.
  4. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    I doubt they'll go so far as to change the names of the Solo twins, as that's something that goes back to the very first stories of the modern EU (They're in the Thrawn Trilogy as macguffins), but I have to agree that retcons can only go so far... and we have seen stories obliterated. Especially with the emergence of higher canon material (The Clone Wars took a blunt hatchet to a number of EU stories set in the era... compressed the time frame of those stories, totally overwrote large sections of the Mandalorian's backstory and so forth). Will we see everything in the post-RoTJ environment obliterated? Probably not... will we see large sections obliterated though? Probably... almost definitely.

    In this case the EU's adherence to a single overriding storyline is actually it's own worst enemy, obliterating one element will take down others. Kruegar is quite right when he says the post-RoTJ EU has been allowed to run wild... we've seen Chewie's death, the downfall of the New Republic, the reemergence of the Sith, the fall of a Solo to the dark side, the fall of a Solo in battle, the death of Luke's wife, and so forth. Those are enormous events in the lives of any character... so I expect some pretty harsh treatment of the Del Rey books as they are the greatest offenders in this regard and many of those stories to be obliterated as a result. I do however expect some parts of it to survive.

    Ben Skywalker is an easy to use element (He'd be teenaged by 40 ABY... around 20 by 45 ABY unless they move his birth to some time closer to Luke and Mara's marriage, for example: 21-22 ABY would give them an 18-19 year old at 40 ABY). I expect there to be a Skywalker child as the name has become iconic... we're always following the male Skywalker line as the protagonists in the films so I'd expect it to be Luke's son... Leia's children would be secondary or supporting figures (Obi-wan or Han Solo type role models perhaps). Just using Ben would be sensible, but it is possible they may make another character... which would throw out a lot.

    Changing who mom is would throw out even more.

    So yeah... I expect things to be obliterated. I expect the canon authority people will be very busy after the films come out figuring out what fits and what doesn't. I'd almost expect a sweeping N-Canon statement until they figure it out or something.
  5. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    I do get the feeling that Jania will be in it, just cuz way way back when the story first broke it was mentioned there would be a female protagonist and that's the first thing that popped into my head. Jania as a spry 20-something new Jedi! (using the surname Skywalker just for market branding) Sliding timescale is a big word here. Same deal why Peter Parker is in his early 20s at Marvel although he was just a teenager in the 60s. It's also quite possible there won't be a "It's been XXX years since the destruction of the Second Death Star", it'll just kick off with Old Jedi Master Luke Skywalker and not quite nail down a specific date. So if the ST kicks off post-novels, and Luke has like a dozen Jedi under his wing max and there's no mention of Ben or Mara or Jacen or Anakin, it ain't that hard to retcon. Hello "NJO Jedi Die Lots!" novel, Luke never talks about his wife and now-dead son. Nobody mentioned Jacen or Anakin Solo because it was too painful, etc.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Jan 2, 2013
  6. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    The fundamental problem the ST has with the EU is that the the films, by definition have to be about the biggest, most important, and life changing events for the characters after RoTJ. Which is kind of hard to do when the galaxy has suffered an intergalactic invasion that utterly destroyed most of the galaxy, knocked down a galactic government, terraformed Coruscant, and so forth...

    So... yeah, the EU is in trouble. I hope that the character are used, but could care less about the plot of the post-RoTJ EU.
    kainee, El_Machete12 and Krueger like this.
  7. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    That's it, exactly. Spot on.

    Let's take the fall and death of Jacen as an example. How on earth are the films meant to dance around that? They have four choices:

    1. The ST is set after his death. So the mass audience are immediately confronted with backstory about Han and Leia having a dead Sith Lord son. Try explaining that in the opening crawl.

    2. The ST is set before his death. So he stars in three films before his fall to the darkside and his death (i.e. the biggest developments of his character arc) take place in a relatively obscure and poorly-received book series that was published over a decade prior to Episode IX.

    3. The ST adapts that book series, thus covering the events of his death.

    4. The ST wipes that section of continuity from the record, either by canceling out Jacen's death, or erasing the character of Jacen completely.

    Now considering that mainstream audiences may be turned off by Options 1, 2 and 3, while the hardcore fans are going to watch the new films no matter what, it's pretty obvious which option Disney has the most incentive to pursue. It's a shame that so much effort went in over the years to building Post-ROTJ continuity, but they should have known a Sequel Trilogy was always going to be a possibility.
    Last edited by Winged_Jedi, Jan 3, 2013
  8. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    How could they when George said it wasn't happening and approved them writing stories in that time period? The publishers take their cue from LucasFilm.
  9. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    George says a lot of things. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it, just that they should have always been aware, at the back of their minds, that a ST might happen in future. It's not like it matters in material terms- the authors were all paid long ago and the books sold- but if they wanted to preserve continuity for the future they could have tried to carve out a space for a potential ST.

    For example, the state of both the galaxy and main cast at the start of the NJO was just about a perfect place to let things rest for a while. Instead they tried to cram in as many major, galaxy-changing, character-killing events as possible. It's not like it was necessary in order to sell- they could have simply left the Skywalker/Solo clan there, and jumped way back or way ahead in the timeline, and still sold well. The success of the KOTOR and Legacy eras proves that.
    Last edited by Winged_Jedi, Jan 3, 2013
  10. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    It was still LFL's responsibility to tell them that, though. If Lucas thought even for an instant that there might be an ST then he should have let them know. Otherwise, they have no reason not to explore those characters and that time period for as long as people want to read about them.
  11. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    That's true, that's true. I'm not blaming them so much as I am saying that it's a shame they didn't give the era some breathing space. They had the opportunity to explore other eras in a 20,000 year timeline, and they chose to cram as much as possible into the post-ROTJ period for no apparent reason (like I say, the KOTOR era is at least as profitable if not more so). So if that huge chunk of continuity gets wiped out, the damage is going to be a lot worse than it would have been if they had shown some restraint.
    Last edited by Winged_Jedi, Jan 3, 2013
  12. chris hayes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    star 4
    No need to erase Jacen Solo....he just will not be mentioned....neither will Anakin....Mara Jade might be mentioned in passing....the only thing they have to explain is Chewbacca's death .
  13. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, they really packed the events in after Return of the Jedi... there was the whole commercial thought that more stories about Luke, Leia, and Han would sell better then other things... unfortunately they decided to go the epic 'lets blow up the universe' route instead of the more sensible 'well here's this small isolated crisis story' route. In short, they decided to go big... with only a few examples of the opposite happening like Survivor's Quest and the newest X-wing books.

    It'll mean major retcons/decanonizations... I mean I realized that the moment I heard about a ST. Sometimes you just have to grin and bear it when stuff like this happens. I mean, that's just the way it goes.
    Jedi Merkurian and Winged_Jedi like this.
  14. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    I think it's quite possible to go through the entire ST without a single mention of Jacen or Anakin. It's not as if all they would do is talk about their dead kids. Or at all. I think the real short version is, if Jania is in it, it happened. If she ain't, it didn't.
  15. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Also, conspiracy theory time: the only reason the only sole standing Solo kid is female is because she can be slotted into the role of "the other" as mentioned by Yoda in ESB back when the Saga was supposed to end at part 9 but basically part 6-9 got crammed together into ROTJ. But the plot for 7-9 is still out there, female protagonist and all!

    Heck, the only reason the Solo's have 3 kids is because in Dark Empire Leia was supposed to be pregnant because that was the story they came up with but "Heir" had already had Leia pregnant with twins, which was set a year before. The twins only show up in a single panel, basically, in the 3rd issue of Dark Empire to cover that.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Jan 3, 2013
  16. Krueger Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    A lot of people who say this are really missing the point. All those things you've just listed are faaaaar too big not to be mentioned. It’s as simple as that. So Leia and Han had a son who became a Darth no less (!), was killed by his sister before Episode 7, and all the characters just make no mention of it whatsoever? The same as their other son who also died before the film? So it’s alright to talk about Chewbacca's death, but not their two sons’? I'm sorry, but your "just don't mention" policy wouldn't work. I think it’s small-minded to think that that would be a credible way of keeping the whole of the EU intact. You really have to look at the bigger picture here. To have all those major things just brushed under the carpet? No, that wouldn't cut it. That's sloppy storytelling and it would also tie the filmmaker's hands like you wouldn't believe. I’m sure the team they pick to make Episode 7 will be a very talented one. They shouldn’t, under any circumstances, be made to become slaves of the EU. Maybe not directly, but that's definitely what you're suggesting should happen.
    Last edited by Krueger, Jan 3, 2013
  17. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Won't work man... if they take Jaina as she is in 45 ABY she's... 36 years old, probably about to marry Jagged Fel, and already a Jedi Master. All that means she will not be and cannot be the Protagonist. 40 ABY isn't much better.

    For a protagonist you need a teenage or 20 year old hero that's about to venture out into the universe... The only EU member of the Skywalker-Solo families that fits would be Ben. They could make a new Skywalker family member and trash a lot of the previous EU (it probably would be trashed anyway) but that's the only one that fits at the moment. If they use Jaina it will be either as the Lancer (Veteran friend/confident of the protagonist) or support.
  18. BigAl6ft6 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Sliding timescale, people. Learn it, live it, love it. Compress the back-end of Jania and Jacen's story into their early 20s. Stretch out the pre-Heir era to about the first 20 years. This is assuming that the story will be set at 40 ABY (which seems like a nice-round number since Ep. 7 will be out about 2 years short of Ep. 4 40th anniversary).
  19. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, I'm wondering if we'll start getting more books in the KOTOR era now that the ST has been announced. Maybe they'll tie up the post-ROTJ era stories and take a hiatus. At least, until they know how things are going to be affected.
  20. startravellerearth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2012
    star 1
    Ben, Jaina & Jacen are needed. Besides, without a sith, there won't be any lightsaber duels. And there needs more jedi & sith!
  21. May the Horse be with you Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Remember, though, the ST is only one aspect of the new films we are likely to see from Disney/LFL. Therefore, the potential for ALL continuity to be damaged/erased is always going to be present. Imagine a movie set c.3650 BBY and there is no immortal Sith Emperor, for example. If GL thought there were too many Anakins with Anakin Solo, how do you think TPTB will view the general audiences acceptance of more than one Sith Emperor - or more than one Empire for that matter?
  22. chris hayes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2012
    star 4
    To get the big 3 back & Disney won't have anything less....then EP7 must be set 35 to 45 ABY to be age appropriate THEN EP7 will have to much explaining to do if the EU is intact if it's not intact then what the hell went on after ROTJ for 30yrs ....you have to at some point not mention some stuff as there would be to much to explain .... the no mention policy means .... it did happen in the EU & EU fans have knowledge of it but to the none EU fans that no nothing then they go on oblivious & you get on and tell a new story with what you have at 45ABY the big 3 , Ben , Jaina etc ...
    Last edited by chris hayes, Jan 4, 2013
  23. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 4
    I dunno, could something like this work? If they'll time it to actual actor scale and have the big three be older?

    All Star Wars installments were noticeable for starting out in the middle of somewhere, so can't they just do that for this too?
  24. Winged_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    This indeed a problem looking beyond the ST. However, I don't think it's as serious, for a few reasons:

    1. The timeline isn't as crowded in other eras. If they want to do ancient Sith versus ancient Jedi, then there's literally dozens of places they can slot in an entire trilogy without touching anything.

    2. The timeline is more easily retconned in other eras, because there's less material to have to alter.

    3. Regarding the TOR era specifically, it's the highest-profile EU launch that there's ever been, and everyone seemed to be cool with having more than one Emperor and more than one Empire. The only people really complaining were the hardcore fans who felt it was a lazy retread of old designs.

    4. The film characters aren't around in those eras. The Big Three are the major problem, because there is a colossal financial incentive to make films about them, and zero incentive to use any of their complex and depressing continuity (though Shadows of Mindor is a glorious exception- I wish I could sneak that onto Kathleen Kennedy's bedside table). Once the Big Three are out of the picture, they'll go to the other film characters for spinoffs, Fett being the obvious choice. Again, that's post-ROTJ canon that will take a kicking.

    But once every avenue related to the original films has been exhausted, they don't have any obvious hooks except for the inherent appeal of the universe itself. At that point I'd say it's more likely that they'll preserve certain elements of EU, by seeing if the most popular stories will work on the masses e.g. Revan's redemption or Cade's journey.
    Krueger likes this.
  25. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    I really don't understand why they are going with post ROTJ events. It's a galaxy that has about 20000 years of existence documented and they can take whatever part of it and make new movies on it. Also, if the movies will be after ROTJ they will be compared with the original trilogy which by default it will mean that they are destined to fail. If they make movies somewhere else, well they will be viewed as standalone movies and they won't be compared with the past movies.

    Also, I think that the events of Kotor and Tor games could well adapted as movies and have stories that are very good, probably even better than the original movies, and also have some of the most intriguing characters in the entire SW, while not forgetting millions of fans. Or make a story about Darth Bane, we always heard that there were only 2 Sith, here we understand why. Or probably even better, go 2 thousand years after the movies and make completely new stories with completely new characters.

    The idea of making movies past ROTJ doesn't sound good to me. Destroying the canon is also a bad financial thing. All those books, novels and toys generates a lot of money for LucasArts. If they destroy it, then I can't see many authors doing stuff in SW universe, and also not a lot of people buying those products. Why should I buy a book if that will not be canon. How would feel those who read Thrawn Trilogy if LucasArts will overrite Leia's twins and say that they never existed. I can see many fans of SW which buy a lot of products from SW to not continue doing it anymore.