Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Unfortunately. :rolleyes:
    Agreed, though I will say it was a well executed bad idea. I enjoyed the show for the most part despite this huge jumping of the shark moment.
  2. TheBBP Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 4
    I wasn't on board when I first learned about it either, but they really did a great job of executing the arc. Especially with Maul being driven absolutely insane over it. I really ended up enjoying it. I REALLY enjoy the part where we last see Maul ( no spoilers).
  3. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I still wish they hadn't done it, but I agree that it was probably as well executed as possible with that plotline. I enjoyed it despite my distaste for the idea.
  4. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Loved the Clone Wars. Pretty much what I wanted the PT to be.

    The great thing about narrative, especially fantasy narrative, is that it doesn't need to obey realist rules. If you have a great villain that was underutilized, you can bring them back. The way the SW universe is built makes almost any sort of return plausible.
  5. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Not to me.
    Last edited by Pro Scoundrel, Feb 2, 2014
  6. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    To me, that's the problem. It may not have to be realistic, but a good story still has to obey the laws of the universe in which it takes place.

    Bringing back Darth Maul after the writer of Episode 1 - you know, a guy named George Lucas - clearly intended Maul to be killed is pretty lame. It makes the whole concept of death in the GFFA a joke. If you can bring back a guy who got chopped in half and fell down that shaft, then you can bring anyone back. Mace Windu? Bring him back! Palpatine? No problem! He landed in an escape pod and escaped the Death Star before it blew up. Tyranus? Just put his head in one of those jars and give him a robot body.

    Heck, do we really know Anakin died at the end of E6? Maybe Padme is alive too! Perfectly plausible she survived considering that, you know, she wasn't chopped in half.
    Last edited by Beezer, Feb 2, 2014
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  7. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    I think a lot of people enjoy importing rules of our reality into non-realistic genres. If that's what you enjoy, cool. I don't watch fantasy for strict adherence to realism.

    Speculative fiction (sci-fi, fantasy) is meant to stretch our notions of possibility.
    Last edited by Dra---, Feb 2, 2014
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  8. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    Ah, talking about Star Wars: The Clone Wars brings back fond memories.

    One of my favorite parts was when Cad Bane kicked Quinlan Vos's ass.

    [IMG]

    Literally.
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  9. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    Not the same thing. What @Beezer and I are talking about is that hokey resurrections not only rob the narrative of it's original impact, but it creates a situation where there are no consequences, or tension, or finality. I now know that I can't believe anything I see on screen because it can simply be undone through some random deus ex machina.
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  10. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Cad Bane was great. Would have been great for the PT!

    @Pro Scoundrel:

    I disagree. You have certain expectations for narrative. These are based on traditional notions of reality. Since I don't approach SW with those expectations, I'm just as interested in things that seem impossible as you are in things that seem probable.

    Finality is a value that you hold, and that's fine. I think there are consequences, and the fact that there is no finality has to do with what we accept as possible. So that a villain can come back doesn't bother me because I know it's possible in this world. I expect it. It still creates tension for me because I think its scary that Evil can keep finding a way to return.


    But in SW, these things aren't necessarily out of some random box -- they are a natural consequence of the world (the Force; tech that is similar to magic). They are probable instead of improbable. What makes them improbable for some is that they bring certain values with them into the narrative, although the narrative itself has different values.
    Last edited by Dra---, Feb 2, 2014
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  11. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    It isn't a matter of demanding that things be realistic. But fact is, if we accept the lameness of the EU, then we've set up a situation where someone got chopped in half and fell down some shaft, but came back. If Maul could come back, then why not Qui-Gon? He took a lightsaber through the gut, but certainly that's not as bad as being chopped in half and falling down a huge shaft. There's 2 problems with the whole Darth Maul resurrection:

    1) Lucas himself clearly intended for Maul to have been killed when he made E1. There really was absolutely zero ambiguity. I would be far more accepting if Lucas' plan all along was to make it seem like Maul was killed but then bring him back. However, when making the prequel trilogy, it is obvious the Lucas' intent was that Maul died at the end of E1, end of story.

    2) It makes a mockery of the entire concept of death. If you can bring back a guy that got chopped in half then why can't they bring back Padme or Anakin or Qui-Gon? Qui-Gon certainly didn't suffer as bad of a wound as Maul in that same duel. How can we, as fans of the GFFA, accept death as a possibility when such ridiculous resurrections have taken place? It reduces the drama and the tension in any situation when you consider the ridiculous extents to which someone can be wounded and still come back.
    Last edited by Beezer, Feb 2, 2014
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  12. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Qui-Gon has returned as a Force Ghost.

    Oh, see my Edited response above.

    Some people might think that fantasy creates a "mockery" of death. I think it stretches our notion of what death is. Gets us to think (and speculate) about what it really is instead of just accepting a particular notion of it.

    I find it interesting that some beings in SW are powerful enough to return. Non-Jedi and non-Sith don't return. That would surprise me.
  13. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    If I had a problem excepting the fantastical in stories I wouldn't be a Star Wars fan. The point is that it's already been established that being cut in half in the GFFA kills you. Maul being cut in half by Obi-Wan was supposed to be symmetrical with Obi-Wan being cut in half by Vader. I accepted Obi-Wan as a force ghost because it had been foreshadowed in dialogue. "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". If Maul had said "You can't kill me jedi, I have learned the secrets of life and death", then I would have no problem with his return. But, If a writer doesn't establish this possiblity beforehand then it's a deus ex machina cheat.
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  14. Spork111 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 2
    ^This is just the old comic book problem where nobody really dies in a comic, because later the writers always change their minds and want to bring the character back. With Maul, clearly Lucas regretted killing him off in TPM so, voila, he's not really dead! So, you either find some really contrived explanation, or you just say "screw it" and throw continuity out the window. I tend to agree with Beezer, though - I believe a writer should think long and hard before killing off a character. Don't do it unless you really mean it.
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  15. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    The thing is, your example of Obi-Wan being cut down by Darth Vader doesn't count. First off, Obi-Wan is a Jedi; he accepts death. Darth Maul is a Sith; therefore, he doesn't accept death. Maul used his hatred to survive. One of the things I love about Maul's survival is that it ties in well with Sith lore.

    In addition, I would just like to point that before the prequels, if you had told people that Darth Vader was some Chosen One destined to bring down the Sith (whoever those people are), they'd call bullshit. Same thing with the Midi-chlorians. Just because it wasn't mentioned before on-screen doesn't mean it isn't possible.

    I think that Maul's survival was a good and bold move for the people at LucasFilm because he was under-used and shouldn't have died in his duel with Obi-Wan. Maul says it best, "I could have been... so much more." With his survival, he was more.
    Last edited by InterestingLurker, Feb 2, 2014
  16. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    True. So has Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda. Clearly a "force ghost" return-from-beyond was part of Lucas' vision when he made the OT and the PT. But, just as clearly, a full resurrection of a character who was chopped in half then neither seen nor mentioned in either of the subsequent movies, was not.
    Well then I have some bad news for you because there was a non-Jedi, non-Sith character who clearly died in the movies but came back in the EU. His name is Boba Fett. It was clearly the intent in E6 to have killed him off but, like Maul, since he was such a popular villain and you need popular villains to sell books and drive up ratings, a ridiculous explanation had to be given to bring them back.
    Last edited by Beezer, Feb 2, 2014
  17. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    I respect your view. I guess I would just point out that writers sometimes make mistakes in killing someone off too soon. The great thing about fiction is you can change mistakes.

    If it was a story about WW2, it would bother me. When it comes to SW or even comics in general, I like the freedom irrealist genres open up. I guess I just care less about a deus ex machina in these kinds of genres than I do more realistic ones. As long as the plot device is fun and interesting, it can actually add to the story. I think this is true in Maul's case: that his hate was so strong he was able to keep on living says something interesting and pathetic about the Sith. The Jedi would never approach death this way, so it adds to themes of the narrative.
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  18. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, and Sherlock Holmes should have stayed dead too :p
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  19. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I totally agree that neither Maul nor Sherlock Holmes should have been killed in the first place.
  20. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    If Darth Plagueis is in ST, then there's one group of people I would like to see as his personal army (or one of his personal armies).

    [IMG]


    The Sun Guard.

    They're basically a deeply religious group that worship the Sith. One of the things I liked about the OT and PT was all the historical parables they had to them. With that said, I think that the Sun Guard would be a nice parable for religious fundamentalism. Better yet, don't portray them as a Sith cult but a group that's loyal to Plagueis (like they were in James Luceno's novel) because they think that obeying him will eventually help them spread their religion.

    I know it's unlikely yet nevertheless, I wouldn't mind seeing them in ST.
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  21. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 3
    it sucks that this time next year during the super bowl there will be no trailer for Star Wars :(
  22. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    What makes you so sure?
  23. Odolwa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    Seems like the perfect time for the trailer.
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  24. Krueger Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2004
    star 4
    Surely it would be too far out? Almost a year.
  25. mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    star 3
    i feel like disney is really trying to make all of the star wars fans really suffer.
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