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Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Forgive me your highness but I suffer from mild dyslexia and was mostly deaf as a child (not a fun combo) I was still being taught basic spelling (like spelling 'friend' correctly) in 5th grade and not doing too good even by then...I some times don't spell things correctly and mix them up even now 20 years later after long struggles trying to improve.

    Etymology of names is what I meant. ;)

    Lolz, but it really is just a man and his dog when you get down to it... he still lacked human compainionship.
    Last edited by Ryus, Jan 30, 2014
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  2. Odolwa Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2013
    star 3
    Both movies and EU have goofy names. Does anyone really care if they were to use Mara, Jacen, Jaina, Ben etc, Like really care? Would it make you not watch the movies?. If GL came up with those names there wouldn't be a problem. This just comes off as another Anti-EU rant.
    Last edited by Odolwa, Jan 30, 2014
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  3. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 6
    Generally, an argument that boils down to "if you don't like the name it's because you're too stupid to know it's awful" is not the best way to win people over to one's point.
    Last edited by BigAl6ft6, Jan 30, 2014
  4. Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 6
    Personally, I just don't like those names except for Ben but no it wouldn't make me not watch the films if they were used. However, it's not about being anti-EU for me (I like parts of it and parts of it I don't like) it's really about me wanting to see what Lucas can come up with for the names of the children of characters he created. The movies are his story and so I want to see his characters.
    Mystery Roach, Dra--- and Odolwa like this.
  5. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    I mean really, according to Dra we need prosody and English being a stress timed language we need a fairly consistant amount of stressed time between consecutive stressed syllables... though I find it ironically fitting that while Mara's two syllables fit that the word Jade ironically of all words breaks the pattern. I think the interuption actually stresses the meaning of Jade and gives her names meaning extra meaning. [face_tee_hee]
    Odolwa likes this.
  6. Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 5
    I understand prosody. Personally, I don't like the name "Mara Jade", but it's not up to me to tell others what is "good" and what's not. This same argument has been made against the PT. That it is objectively "bad" and that if you understood about film making and screen writing that you would perceive the problems. But, not everyone feels that way, so it comes across as if you're telling people they are stupid for not agreeing with you. (Which I know is not your intent)
    Totally agree with you here.
    Not to everyone. I happen to agree with you, but I have a good friend who considers the EU of equal importance. Just saying that Star Wars fans are a varied bunch. The OT is what got me into Star Wars, but for some it was the PT or the EU. Who gets to decide what "matters" more?
  7. Master Aizakku Rorensu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2013
    star 1
    I wasn't trying to read your mind or tell you what to think. I was speaking in general and worded my post as such, and it wasn't directed at you or any one specific poster in this thread. It was based on an overall view of the complaints that I've read here and elsewhere on the internet.

    And if you feel that because you spent money on EU novels then they should count, then that's your prerogative. Personally, I don't think that's a strong argument, but that's just me. And I can argue that I rejected the EU novels when they came out and chose not to spend my money on them, so they're the last thing I want them to count. Is my argument stronger? I don't know, it's probably weaker, but I don't know.

    Anyway, again, no, I wasn't trying to read your mind or tell you what to think. Sorry if you felt I was, but I was just speaking in general.
  8. Darth_Pevra Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 6
    I don't find Mara Jade so bad but then my mother tongue is german.
  9. Dra--- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    I never used the word stupid, and I never ever will. I'm just pointing out there are objective standards out there. Anyone can learn what they are if they're interested. Once you learn what they are, then the it's subjective argument makes more sense. That is, once people are operating from similar pools of knowledge, they can agree or disagree on these things based on taste. But the idea that there is no standard for art and entertainment is just not true. What I find arrogant is when people who operate from a small pool of knowledge argue that their view is just as authoritative because they turned the TV on and watched something. Those opinions are valid, but they carry less authority. But if you disagree then maybe you're comfortable with firing the professionals at Disney and LFL and hiring a team of non-professionals who simply like Star Wars to write the ST. I'm not.

    @Ryus:

    I'm sorry you had trouble growing up. A lot of us have, and still do. Everyone has some kind of trouble. I've never noticed any of these issues in your posts. :)

    As for etymology, that is a good point to raise. I'm not always a big fan of the technique. Often it's too overt, but we see that a lot in SW. I don't think that's a big problem with Mara Jade's name, however. I think the problem is how the soft consonant and vowel sounds in "Mara" undermine the trochaic rhythm. You don't have to agree with me, but I know I would have recommended to Zahn a rethink. It just doesn't evoke the intended toughness of the character. And it's banal.

    But if you like it because of the etymology, more power to you.

    Beyond the aesthetic griping, I think @Darth Chiznuk has made the key point. I'm a Lucas fan. I want to see his Star Wars, whether it succeeds or fails. When he's gone, I'll be more open to others stepping up.
  10. TtheForceHurts Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2010
    star 4
    What makes me wonder though, is that Chee and Hidalgo were publishers of that many guides and manuals, chronologies etc and now sweep away all their hard work... What makes this whole renaming and cleansing valid is the recent cancellation of the new Essential guide to characters. At the time that happened I thought: Why not publish this now and then a new one with the added ST characters later. Now it seems that they want to distance them as soon as possible from all that transpired before in the EU...
  11. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 8
    Your logic is most unwelcome here, sir.
    Dra--- likes this.
  12. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah I remember when that Essential Guide to characters got canceled. My first though was it would be redone with only I-VI, The Clone Wars, and maybe a few early Episode Rebels characters. I had already presumed the EU characters not being included was a given...

    Well, we'll just agree to disagree about Mara. However I will state that yes while her character is mostly a very strong character and the soft consonant and vowel sounds doesn't invoke the precieved toughness of the character by many, the difference is I don't view her as tough as she puts on either especially in TTT where internally and emotionally she was much weaker. So to me it fits. Again guess we just disagree.

    Now as to being a fan of Lucas I am too, that said I feel he's best as a story teller and not the writer... sorry but having read all the OT drafts if he wasn't helped to make Star Wars more main stream than we never would have gotten the prequels or even likely VII (odds are we would have gotten at least one sequel though due to Spliter of the Minds Eye) since while their was many great ideas and themes, the original draft was really just a mash up of Flash Gordon, Samurai tales, and Dune and B level stories at best. While the final product still had all these elements all the hands who helped reshape IV really helped make it more than that too... when its just George we still get something I love but many others don't agree and I want VII to again set the bar it set in 1977.

    So I want others stepping up now, that way they can learn from working with George about the story telling rather than just trying to mimic something he'd do later. No one can ever replace George, that said though now is the time for George to pass on what he's learned by letting them get their hands dirty in the ST too. It not only keeps the ST more main stream, thus giving it greater longevity, but allows some of Georges story telling methidology to get passed on just like how Jedi Masters teach their apprentices in the field and not in a class room only.

    That is part of the reason I want some EU characters in VII, regardless of if they're only in it to die. Since it shows the film makers are considering all the markets VII will appeal to, not just George Fans. Including just a few EU characters (names and basic arc type, not their whole story) shows an attempt at a grand comprimise between the 2 Star Wars universes George Lucas said he felt exsisted (his & EU, which I'll further break down to OT, PT, EU), this is a crisis point of which universe will win out about to hit the fan... which is really why its an opportunity for all 3 to work together. I feel this is the only way VII can set the bar again to even close to what it did in 1977 since now a days everyone is spoiled by special effects thus while Star Wars can again set the bar here it would be a fleeting bar it sets... and it can't do that story wise if the 3 Star Wars camps of core fans are in disagreement. We need at least a few peace offerings in the ST to which ever two universes will lose out or there will be hell to play between the groups that feel slighted.
    Last edited by Ryus, Jan 31, 2014
  13. Fastback Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2014
    star 1
    I believe that VII can be that bridge that ties in PT,OT and EU together. To me Lucas came up with the blue print but allowed others to add and expand beyond what he imagine. I grew up on OT and I wanted more so EU fed me but even that is not enough.
    Ryus likes this.
  14. newdawn12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
  15. Allana_Rey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I'd just rather have the actual characters from the EU in the ST. Plain and simple.
  16. Dra--- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    @Ryus: That's a strong response about the softer aspects of Mara Jade being suggested in the prosody of her name. That's a legit point. As you said though, we'll have to agree to disagree because I'd rather it evoke toughness more (and be a little less parodical).

    You also make a strong point about the next generation of SW creators stepping up. I agree absolutely. I just don't agree that this next generation necessarily has much to do with the post-ROTJ EU, but with allowing the new creators to run as freely as possible with their vision. That's an argument against using direct adaptations of Mara Jade and Thrawn.

    Anyway, I actually do like many aspects of EU. Particularly the origins of the Sith. I even like the idea of Palp clones! [face_devil]
  17. TheBBP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    Plain, simple, unoriginal and lazy. That's just my opinion though.
  18. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, and while we're at it let's time jump hundreds of years in the future with only new original characters since reusing Han, Luke, and Leia is predictable, unoriginal, defeats the purpose of the happy ending in RotJ, and lazy :rolleyes: . Might as well take the logic all the way... :p

    I mean really Agents of SHIELD was so much better [face_liarliar] before it started delving into the pool of Marvel characters... no matter the fact that 6 million people bailed on the show in part for that very reason (other being people not liking the new characters as much as the teir three minor heros in the Marvel universe). 8-}

    Why can't people realize that pandering to them isn't what lazy writers feel is worth the effort. Its not like fans prefer Arrow since it bring in tons of DC verse characters all the time (most of whom are totally reinvented minus the key aspects), its not like twitter exploded when Amanda Waller said she was forming 'a squad'... oh wait, never mind people do prefer Arrow to Agents of Shield and twitter did go nuts when just the mear mention of a squad being formed by Amanda Waller was brought up... just like every comments page on Star Wars news threads explodes when the EU is brought up vs Zac Efron.

    What would be lazy is reinventing the wheel just cause they don't feel like using EU characters but want to use charcaters just like them anyways. Not saying they are, clearly since no one knows anything yet, just if they do not going all the way and using their name would be the more foolish move. It would alienate a fan base just cause they don't feel like going into the script and changing a few names... fans get actors not always looking like their book/comic charcters, example Nick Fury now being black... but at least he still wears an eye patch.

    New fans get their walking into a franchise and universe worth of characters every time they walk into a franchise movie, they get charcters from alternative formats than movies might get introduced. However they don't care as long long as they enjoy them in the movie. Now franchise fans often do get very passionate if their charcters aren't in it or needlessly are written out of it. They get charcters being reworked or reinvented, many even prefer when they're taken in totally different directions.
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 1, 2014
  19. TheBBP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    Luke, Leia and Han are huge parts of the movie verse. It makes sense to bring them back. The "happy ending" of RoTJ evidently was not an ending considering the fact that new movies in the saga are moving forward. It was simply the end of a chapter. I enjoyed much of the EU, but I thank God every day that Uncle George considered it an alternate universe. I also thank God that every indication from Pablo Hidalgo and other official sources is that they are prepping for an entirely new and official canon.

    Disregarding the current EU for the movies does not make it any less enjoyable. It is just not part of the official canon. It is high-grade fan fiction.
    Mystery Roach likes this.
  20. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    as to the big three my tablet acted up and didn't post my full comment here is my intended reply to your previous comment..

    So yeah I get your comment but I view it as a double standard... your logic doesn't apply to one aspect of the Star Wars franchise but applies to the one you don't like. Sorry but I'll have to agree to disagee, I don't care if Lucas considers it an alternative universe or not. Fact is millions of EU fans did enjoy it and while they don't expect VII to be the EU they want some EU to be included at the very least since to them its been part of the magic of the Star Wars franchise. I personally view VII as an opportunity to get Lucas's universe and the EU to become one universe, mostly in line with Lucas but that still invites EU fans to enjoy it too. If Luke has a wife, their is no reason why to name name her Mara other than Lucas being stubbern. He didn't name Corcuscant what he wanted to because of the EU, so now fans expect that same treatment... he set a pressident for including the EU rather than ignoring all of it everytime and now he should live with it, he repeated this again with TCW where EU was borrowed from often. The name of the planet he wanted it to be is unimportant vs alienating lots of hard core Star Wars fans... he moved Mace Windu name around to tons of charcters in the drafts, no reason Nomi has to override Jaina just for the sake of it, just give Jaina a little sister or neice named Nomi or have her daughter in the next trilogy named Nomi instead. In fact I like that idea... its a great selling point for Lucas to start the story treatment of the next trilogy, he can now include everything that was cut from the previous 9 films names wise. That way we get at least 3 more films by george.

    Um... no... its being reported that the Story Group is approving offical canon, their is no indication as to what that intails to the EU... yet.


    What has been said is that Pablo Hidalgo being is being reported as to giving the other people working on Rebels ideas of charcters and locations from the EU when they asked for muscle for a character or good locations. So I can't help but wonder if your thanking is for naught... And I'm glad you thank god... but please if you're going to take the holier than though pov please make it funny and state thanking the Force instead ;)
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 1, 2014
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  21. TheBBP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    You are still assuming that the millions who enjoy the EU do not want original stories.

    To add to my desire for new and original stories and characters is the incidences in the EU where Karen Traviss took liberties over her own personal views. She all but hated Jedi, considered fans who questioned her about it to be akin to nazis and took it upon herself to kill off Mara Jade and Palleon. The EU is less than consistent on several levels.

    There is an absolute NEED for the EU to be disregarded as canon. It still makes fun fiction at times though.
    Dra--- likes this.
  22. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    First off I flat out said EU fans want original stories. Second off your assuming an original film can't have EU characters :rolleyes::oops:The Clone Wars was very original yet featured EU characters, Batman Begins was original but had old characters, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi was original but had an EU character. Your comment has no basis in reality. [face_tee_hee]

    Your assuming things about what I'm assuming that just isn't their. [face_talk_hand]

    I've flat out said tons of times, Burn the EU to the ground but just save a few EU characters and locations. I flat out agree tons of the EU likely will conflict with Lucas's story treatments, that said their is no reason why a Jedi healer in it couldn't become a female Mon Cal Jedi with the same name from the EU or Jedi who solves murders like a cop can't become Corran Horn. You really think Lucas in a 12 page storytreatment wrote about every jedi council member instead of focusing on the plot? There is plenty of opportunity to fit in EU that wouldn't hinder Lucas's treatements... and we all know based on Lucas's original treatments that Lucas sometimes needed to be taken by the reigns and helped a bit...
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 1, 2014
  23. newdawn12 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2013
    star 4
    What names do you think they'd come up with for the re imagined Mara Jade, Jacen, Jaina, and Ben, if the rumor's true.

    It's kind of like a reverse of khan, in into Darkness, where the character's name was Khan, but Cumberbach's was very different from Montalban's Khan.
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  24. Ryus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Exactly its the reverse of Khan... its a flatout opposite reactionary measure. Sadly its the wrong move. All Abrams had to do was admit, yeah he's Khan, you got me but I'm not admitting anything else... it was his hiding it that set off fans since it came off as him acting too cleaver, it set off fans even more than the reversing Spoke and Kirks roles with the reactor which was just the straw that broke the camels back.

    The right move is to call a spade a spade (Mara Jade = Mara Jade, Ben = Ben, Jaina = Jaina, Jacen = Jacen (though personally this one being changed wouldn't bother me in the slightest)), but then take the spade in a new direction rather than just reversing who did what. Simply put, admit who they are early but flat out warn fans they have new destines based on Lucas's treatments not the old EU which Lucas never wrote.
    Last edited by Ryus, Feb 1, 2014
  25. TheBBP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2012
    star 5
    So, in short, you want names re-used so that you can have a warm and fuzzy feeling? I have no doubt that side and minor details could and may be pulled from the EU and be used effectively. Main characters and the plots that go with them (Jade, the Solo siblings, Ben Skywalker and Chewbacca's Corpse)? Not so much.
    Dra--- likes this.