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Discussion Official Sequel Trilogy / Legends / Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

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  1. cronedoggy

    cronedoggy Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    What terrible news. I might buy the rest of the books that I'm missing before they go out of print.

    p.s. Regarding the darth maul argument, was no one convinced by my link showing that people in real life sometimes do survive being severed in half?
     
  2. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Not to start up the argument again, but that guy had his legs severed, he wasn't cut in half from the ribcage down. Losing limbs is very different from severed spine and the loss of several major organs.
     
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  3. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    So I think we're actually agreeing, but saying it in different ways. I'm saying that fantastic events are just fine in the fantasy genre as long as there are good narrative (not realist) reasons for them. You're saying the same thing, but seem to want to argue that the measuring stick isn't a good story, but for the sake of realism.

    Ultimately what we're both arguing for is that the world should be believable. But here's where we may part company -- what's believable is a function of the fantasy world logic, not a real world logic (American, Western), and the SW world logic (its general laws of reality, its metaphysics) is fundamentally different from ours. What's realistic in the GFFA is different from what's realistic in contemporary America.

    So what's unrealistic in SW? Something that works against SW logic. Anything that works against SW logic would be bad storytelling.

    Let's look at Maul as an example. SW logic tells us that Sith can survive catastrophic bodily injury if their hate is powerful enough. It also tells us that technology is such that it equates almost to magic (see General Grievous; see bacta tanks; see Darth Vader's cyborg body). These factors defy our real world logic, but they're consistent with SW logic.

    Even more important, once Maul was resurrected (so to speak), most people (imo) thought his story on TCW was powerful. To me, that's the ultimate justification in storytelling, especially fantasy: is the story that results good enough to warrant the fantastic event?

    So to answer Pro Scoundrel's question: for me, it's acceptable to bring characters back in SW if 1) it's consistent with SW logic and 2) if the story that results is worth telling. That probably rules out resurrecting every single person who's ever died because that story eventually becomes harder to make interesting or fun. But those should be the qualities we're interested in. Not whether something might happen in America 2014. That's a different genre.
     
  4. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I totally agree with this, I simply disagree that Maul's survival was consistent with SW logic. Example : Vader needs cybernetics to survive. Vader was rescued immediately after he received his injuries. If the same had happened with Maul I would have less trouble accepting his survival. Maul, however, had far worse injuries than Vader, and never received medical help for over a decade. He simply created spider legs from junk (they aren't cybernetic according to Filoni) and willed himself to live. That shouldn't be possible unless he's Darth Plagueis. And even then it's debatable whether it's possible.

    The point is that no one had returned from an injury that extreme in the films or TCW before. Only the EU had done things like that, and I didn't like it there either.
     
  5. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2012
  6. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Maybe he is Plagueis... Dun... Dun... Dun!!! [face_hypnotized]:p
     
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  7. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Well, then that explains everything! :D
     
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  8. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2012
    There are more odd things that are canon in the Star Wars universe than Darth Maul surviving...

    Dengar lived with a computer that replaced his hypothalamus gland. Among with other things in the Star Wars universe not even including the Dark Side of the force, it is not all that unlikely that Darth Maul could have been surgically junked back together and was able to live. B'omarr Monks literally had themselves (their brains) surgically detached from the rest of their body because they found their body as useless and lived on for centuries in jars.
     
  9. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    I don't think we've been told exactly how Maul survived his injuries. And frankly, I wouldn't want a technical reason. One could always be invented, but that's missing the point IMO. The point is that this is fantasy, and in fantasy, all we need to know is that his hate allowed him to survive. To me, that's powerful narrative logic that trumps the trivial details. After all, this isn't a How To manual; it's Star Wars.
     
  10. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    But, he wasn't. The examples you're giving are like Grevious, medical procedures that people had done to them. According to Filoni, Mauls spider half isn't cybernetic. He received no medical or technological assistance in over a decade. [face_dunno]
     
  11. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Amazing what hate can do.:cool:
     
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  12. TheBBP

    TheBBP Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2012
    We don't know if he has had medical procedures or not. For all we know, he has enough knowledge in physiology to tie up the necessary parts to get by.
     
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  13. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    He might have knowledge to do it, but that's exactly the wrong way to approach this imo (and yours too probably). :) That's giving in to this unnecessary desire for realism when all we need to say is it was hate and the darkside. That's so much more interesting that Maul was a Dr.
     
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  14. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    That's why I said "The point is that no one had returned from an injury that extreme in the films or TCW before. Only the EU had done things like that, and I didn't like it there either."
    They talk about it some in the TCW special features. Now you're going back to the "It's fantasy, anything goes" argument. That's the opposite of narrative logic, it's narrative Deus Ex Machina. Logic IS the "trivial details".
     
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  15. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    It's not anything goes. It goes exactly with SW logic.

    Trivial details are importing in unnecessary details from our world when the SW logic is enough.
     
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  16. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Lawgiver & Casual Flyer star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I'm sorry Dra---, but it doesn't go with SW logic, IMO. If so then Vader shouldn't need the suit, Dooku should have survived, Darth Plagueis is nothing special, etc. If Maul can survive an injury like that, with no help, then no sith should ever die, ever. And that hasn't been the case, and doesn't interest me.

    Regardless, we're never going to see eye to eye on this issue, but that's cool. To each their own. Star Wars gives different things to different people. :)
     
  17. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Star Wars logic or not I thought Maul's survival was a terrible idea and executed even worse. I'm fine with Plagueis being able to manipulate midi-chlorians in order to keep himself alive but a Sith Lord shouldn't be able to survive a catastrophic injury through hate. If a Sith can keep himself alive through hate while a Jedi can only manage becoming Force ghosts then forget the light side I'm gonna be a Sith Lord, baby! [face_devil]:cool:
     
  18. Krueger

    Krueger Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2004
    I disagree, partly. To this day I still don't think Maul should ever have been bought back. So I agree that his return was wrong and should never have happened. However, I will say that his return gave us, IMO, some of the best arcs and, on the whole, was handled rather well. So, in short, it was a well executed bad idea. IMO, of course.
     
  19. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    When I say it's executed poorly I'm referring to the means of his survival. I agree with that in almost all other respects it was a very well written and enjoyable arc. I just wish they had used a different character.
     
  20. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    I appreciate the friendly disagreement. And I do agree that the Maul resurrection was extreme, even in SW. I just happen to like it.

    :)
     
  21. Mystery Roach

    Mystery Roach Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2004
    I admit that I still have mixed feelings about Maul's return in TCW. There's a part of me that doesn't like it just on principle, since they went to such great lengths to indicate that he was definitively dead in TPM (having him split apart while falling was a last-minute addition to drive the point home). However it was handled pretty well in the show so ultimately I really don't have a problem with it. Plus despite the even ground of continuity, somehow I'll accept things in an animated TV show that would be harder to swallow in a live-action movie.
     
  22. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    Wait -- why would anyone want to return like Maul did? It's disgusting and pathetic. Vader too.

    I don't admire any of these Sith Lords and their unnatural and techie ways of returning. That's why I like the Maul return -- his body is grotesque.
     
  23. Immortiss

    Immortiss Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Great conversation. I would just add one thing. I, too, was disappointed with Maul's return, but enjoyed the arcs. I know TCW is canon, but I like to think of it as supporting canon, in that it helps to fill out the real story in the live-action films. TCW was/is very interesting in many respects, but when it comes to the saga, it's filler. The story was never about the Clone Wars as a sequence of events, it was merely the backdrop to Anakin's fall from grace and Palaptine's orchestrations. In the scheme of things TCW supports and fills out that narrative. That's all. It's an appropriate place for Maul's return, but that's where it should be left and I think that's what's been done or will be done. If Maul turns up sometime later in a live-action saga film, I'll be extremely disappointed, but I doubt it will ever happen.
     
  24. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    I'm placing bets on Maul in Rebels. Maybe if they ever delve into the late PT/OT era for spin-off films he might be still around to use. But I highly doubt we'll see Darth Maul drop-kicking and double-bladded lightsabering his way through the ST. I would also think that if they brought him back and go so much cool stuff outta him in TCW just leaving him there to never be touched again would be a waste of a character who actually got *more* interesting on the show.
     
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  25. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    I hope they don't bring Maul into Rebels. We already have the Inquisitor's doublebladed lightsaber thing. Seems redundant.

    I am interested to know what happened to Maul in TCW though.
     
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