Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.
I had forgotten about SotE, which was a fun story btw. However, considering TFU:
Only when the Sun Crusher Marries Luke Skywalker/ Has a unique connection to the Emperor/ Routinely Punks and makes Darth Vader jealous and has the Force itself make good, then and only then can you say it's a bigger Mary Sue
Sun Crusher piloted by Han Solo, Faster than the Falcon (sub-light confirmed, hyperdrive unknown but its at least 1.0), unique tie in to Tarkin and 'the this books Darth Vader' (Exar Kun) plus Kyp who was the wishfulment character of the book, more powerful than the Death Star both offensivly and defensivly, next to impossible backstory, so evil and powerful but only ever blew up bad guys (even going as far as blowing up bad guys who where about to blow up the most heavy populated world in the galaxy full of innocent (Corcusant when Dalla wanted to hyperdrive ram a Star Destroyer into it), a imperial brainwashing stromtrooper key production planet, then later helped kill a Death Star which was about to go blow stuff up... which puts Mara Jades only killing bad guys backstiry to shame they both did it but the suncrusher did it better and in a different kill bracket), this most evil and powerful technalogicial terror became the anti-hero Mary Sue (Kyp's) repemption as well as his cross to bare (but he black holed his cross so everything is awesome), can escape Star Destoryers by ramming them (its defensive is so powerful its offensive), implied to be Palpatines most perfect terror weapon ever, etc...
Now when you get down to it, Mary Sue (the original one) wasn't just a wishfulment character but also one that was just too good for this world. Mara Jade wasn't since she survived close to 50 books (next off half of her Sueism's came later) but the Sun Crusher lasted three (was a Mary Sue of the highest scale from its intro to long after its destruction) and its death was also use as a plot device to redeem a character who at the time was stated to be even more powerful than Luke Skywalker and bestest pals with Han Solo... and literally was the main target market demographic thrown onto the page (Mara Jade being the reverse, the eye candy to the main target market demographic... not saying one is worse, just stating what they where)
Mara Jade is a Mary Sue on the scales of Ahsoka Tano (a too perfect action girl tied to the main character, slight difference in book format using the saying she's amazing ad nausium trope vs tv format trope of showing only her ad nausium being able to do/see something) Star Wars has had dozens of such characters (Batsila Shan, Nomi Sunrider, Mirax (Corran's wife forget spelling was a female Han), all the love intresets in SWTOR, etc...).. however rarely has Star Wars ever gone the extra mile and had its Mary Sue also be the Its too good for this world trope too. Star Wars has always been about milking characters till a more important character/plot needs them to die, but a Mary Sue by its original role of being a wishfulment fanfiction plot device to get their dream into the plot but out again as quickly as possible to not interferre with it Star Wars almost has never done... one of the few exceptions was The Sun Crusher.
Hmm wouldn't Kyp be classed as a Gary Stu rather than Mary and was Kun the Vader ? he seemed more Palpatine, even the Artwork on the book covers have him look like Palpatine. Kyp seemed more similar to the Anakin Skywalker talked about in the OT. Strong in the force with much Anger, With Han being Obi-wan and Luke being a quasi Yoda the falling to the darkside etc.
As for Mary Sue
Below is what it says on Wikipedia and after reading it, how can you not say Mara is not a Mary Sue. She fits the profile perfectly. While the Sun Crusher seems more KJA's version of a Duexmachina, albiet and awful one.
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale":15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2. The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction. Such characters were generally original female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters. By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship."Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies" for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7
so Wesley Crusher was a Mary Sue?
"Korriban appears in the final episodes of Star Wars: The Clone Wars. George Lucas preferred the name "Moraband" to Korriban during story development, leading the episode "Sacrifice" to refer to the planet as Moraband. The episode guide's trivia gallery clarified the issue, stating that Korriban has had multiple names throughout its history. As Korriban is referred to as such in material that is later in terms of in-universe chronology, this article retains the planet's name of Korriban."
@fett 4 A deus ex machina is a literary plot device where a NEW all powerful character or object swoops in AT THE LAST MINUTE to radically alter the plot. Therefore the sun crusher being ever present in the JA trilogy can't be a deus ex machina. It was a popular plot device in ancient greece, but has become vastly hated now adays (example the hologram boy at the end of Mass Effect 3, sorry had to take that shot )
Next off a Gary Stu is a Mary Sue, its just some guys had to have a boys name instead. The real term therefore is still Mary Sue regardless of gender, race, or being living or not... as long as its wishfulment/self-insertion and has at least some personifaction to it, which the both the Falcon and sun crusher did, difference is the Falcon wasn't a Mary Sue since it failed on them half the time while the Sun Chrusher was practically immortal and the best at everything. Ships in Star Wars are often alluded to having personalities by the pilots in the series and the audience, so using character tropes can be accuracte.
Id also recommend you read tvtropes.com explaining Mary Sue, its far more detailed, filled with tons of examples of proper uses, multiple other ways to define it, and incorrect uses. I also love how you told me the term has radically altered its meaning then proceeded to tell me its original usage... which I had already alluded to.
Where/when did he say this? I'd love to burn some Trekkies with this.
Some time in the late 80's right before he died. It was a small part of a longer interview with a mag (so not on camera just text)... Due to it being in the 80s its obscure on the net so ill need some time to hunt it down again but to paraphrase he said star trek ships where exploration ships and in a smallersociety where star wars ships are meant for war in a much larger society with more ability to mass produce war ships. In short he admits that the title of the two series matter if the two societies ever duked it out, an exploration adventure story would be conquered by the industrial war story.
Don't forget though most trekies ignore this kinda thinking and just argue that Q can do anything (though now its been showen in TCW the Whills can pretty much create or destroy life at will too by simply touching it)... Or argue time travel (though being too dumb to realize their ships are too slow to get to a GFFA and whipe them out in the past).
Also remember Gene hated Wrath of Khan even more than Lucas hated Empire, Gene's vision of Star Trek is only really represented by the first two season of the original series and first 2 of TNG... He produced only a fraction of all the Star Trek material unlike George Lucas who even now still has vast influence even after he sold the rights. in other words Gene's vision of Trek isnt what most fansview it as even more so than OT fans disagreeing with the PT.
I pray to god there is no Jar Jar Binks!
For male characters its generally referred to as Gary Sue, and.......kinda but not really. I think he had 1-2 elements of a Gary Sue but not a tone of them
Wesley was a smart, capable kid, but he wasn't someone who became a full Star Fleet Officer at 15 years old, if I remember right he even flunked 1-2 tests to get into the acadmy early. He did save the day his fair share of times, but so did everyone else on the show, its not like every episode came down to Wesley figuring it out. There also wasn't much seperating him from everyone else, its not like he some fantastic piece of equipment or personal ability/skill that set him a part and above everyone else.
A great example of a Gary Sue is Corran Horn.
Please, Wesley Crusher is as big of a Sue as Corran Horn if not bigger... He was flat out fan insertion of the target market (in higher level canon) and he was far too 'star trek perfect' and his failures where endearing... He 'flunked' by flunk we mean second place because Star Fleet is like highlander 'there can only be one candidate' that gets through... And he failed cause he choose to selflessly help the other students in third and fouth place. He was so smart extra dimensional beings where more interested in him than all of Star Fleet... He is the definition of a Mary Sue/Marty Sue/Gary Stu.
He wasn't the focus of every show, didn't solve every problem, wasn't an expert in every field, he didn't have ANY redeeming physical attributes, wasn't the lady's man of the cast, etc.... He was certainly an annoying character and had Gary-Sue-ish moments (having a teenager figure stuff out the best the Federation had to offer) but he wasn't full on Gary-Sue.
Corran on the other hand was THE main character of all 3 of the X-Wing books that featured him, he covered pretty much every base on the team - best pilot, best commando, was the one in the centeral love story, only one with an interested and fleshed out past/backstory (if I remember correctly, that played in the X-Wing series). He had the best R2 unit etc... He was a Jedi, but not only a Jedi but the only Jedi with 1) A Silver Light Saber 2) A lightsaber that could change length. They took away 1 power but gave a special power to replace it that no one else has, that he can use to to access the power he doesn't have. There is no downside or negative or draw back or flaw to the character. Wesley wasn't THAT.
For Wesley Crusher, I think you are looking for "The Jar Jar Binks of Star Trek."
Many episode Wesley was the POV character, he saved the day in almost all of those episode and many he wasn't in. He dated a werewolf princess for an episode to mention one of many he dated. He was an attractive nerd and had a unique back story of serving under the man who killed his dad while his mom fell in love with him... He was accepted by the child hating captain to the point he might as well have adopted him. He saved the universe itself dozens of times and endangered it just as many... He built his own tractor beams, force field, nano tech, warp engines, etc...
He is a Mary Sue beyond any doubt... That said Mary Sues can be enjoyable to watch. Being a Mary Sue in of itself isnt always a crime but with Wesley it was and the actor who plays him admits it (he now hates Star Trek as much as Jake Lloyd hates Star Wars, the difference is he's funny about it, you can see his rants on youtube
Him and Tasha Yar
No he wasn't. Hell he left before the series was half over. There were issue with the character and I said it was silly that a 15-16 year old would/could save the day while the best the Federation had to offer was stumped, but he wasn't a Gary Sue.
And Picard eventually liking him is Gary-Sue-ish, its character development. Having him have love interests is different then being "the romantic lead" of a show etc... Every male character had love stories, even the robot who didn't have emotions.
Either you never watched the show or don't reall yknow what a Mary/Gary Sue is.
Either you never watched the show or don't really know what a Mary/Gary Sue is.
One doesn't have to be a main character of a series to be a Sue, you are wrong on that point. All one has to be is a self-insertion and being too perfect just seals the deal (again, Wesley is the physical manifestation of the target market and as even you admit just too knowledgable... case closed).
One doesn't have to be in every season to be a Sue, your counter argument is a strawman and invalid. Sue's often die young since they're just too perfect.
One doesn't have to be attractive to be one, though having a unique physical trait is often a factor of being one (in Wesley's case its being the attractive nerd, in Corran's case its looking just like his author with facial hair)
Wesley did get some girls dispite your previous denial... but its Star Trek so at the end of the day science is even more important (most Star Trek romances are so horrible even fans don't want them long term save for a few pairings)
Wesley is far too powerful (by science knowledge) and had way too much effect on the universe... even more than Corran did (best he did was liberate a single planets a few times)
yeah, you don't need to be present in every episode to be a M(G)ary Sue
Corran wasn't a Gary Sue. He wasn't the best pilot in the x-wing series and struggled to lean any amount of telekinesis. He didn't start out as an expert duelist and used his cleverness to invent a dual phase blade to win in a fight. Stackpole also had Corran flick his blade on and off to pass though a parry. I found both of these strategies to be interesting uses of cleverness to defeat otherwise superior foes.
Some characters were just great at everything like the kyle katarns, kyp durrons etc, but Corran, tionne and cighal all has weakness.
Kyp wasn't perfect at everything, at least not in NJO. He has the diplomatic skills of a wampa and the sleazy charm of a snail. He was also arrogant, thinking himself superior to Luke Skywalker when it comes to force powers.
He was also one of the few characters who actually made any goddamn sense in this force forsaken series and was interesting enough that I wanted to know more about him, but that's not his fault.
He is the defination of a Gary-Sue. He absolutely was the best pilot in the series (the first part of the first book is all about him trying to prove it to everyone). And the fact that he struggles to learn it doesn't change the fact that even the "flaw" that was susposed to make up for the ultra rare power he has, is meaningless. So Corran is an expert duelist, but also so clever that he can beat any opponent even when they are better and more skilled then him...........
I get that Corran is popular, but his popularity comes from being a Gary Sue. Mary/Gary Sues are often the way they are because they are the author's avatar and/or favorite character in the story. Mara Jade would be another Mary Sue, clearly Zahns favorite, pet character. Corran ticks pretty much every box that fans have about who they'd want to be if they were in Star Wars (mostly because he is basically Han and Luke merged together). Great pilot, Powerful Jedi, has an R2 unit with personality, comes from a line of Jedi, is Correllian, is/can be a scoundrel, has an awesome love interest, knows and interacts with the characters from the movies (going so far as to explain the Dark Side to Luke.......).
There is nothing wrong with like a Gary/Mary Sue character if thats what you like.
Interesting read on the subject - http://bittersweetfountain.blogspot.ca/2013/07/corran-horn-rogue-9-jedi-and-mary-sue.html
I've never heard of the "Mary Sue" term until I came to these boards and I've learned to dislike it with a passion. A rather overused "argument".
Hey one of my best friends is named "Mary Sue"! You take that back!
what about Peggy Sue?