Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.
She got married.
Don't believe I said they have to be the main character. Wesley though is not a perfect character, lacks in several character traits, and if there is there for the audience not hte authory that isn't a Gary/Mary Sue.
If your'e talking about TNG as a story, and the character isn't around for even half the stories or any of the movies........He clearly isn't the one always solving the issue, saving the day, getting the girl etc....
I didn't say anything about being attractive, Wesley isn't/wasn't the romantic lead of the series. He never had a relationship that carry the show or was the center relationship. He wasn't the go to ladies man (that would be Riker). Getting a girl, or a couple doesn't = Gary Sue. Given how you talking about him, EVERY character on TNG was a Gary/Mary Sue.
Saving the world/galaxy doesn' t= Gary/Mary Sue. Fantasy and Sci-Fi stories often have that as an end goal. Thats a story element, not an aspect of a character.
It has been more than a decade since I've read the books but I got the impression that Wedge and Tycho were better pilots. Jace was a better pilot for the first several of the books.
Corran wasn't the best with the lightsaber in I, Jedi and had to come up with clever solutions to overcome superior opponents. Isn't this a mark of a well written chracter? Wouldn't a gary sue just be a better duelist from the start? Katarn before having any training could just out duel many experienced dark jedi. Corran had to go to the academy and train. Moreover he wasn't the most powerful character there either.
I thought it was Gary Stu? Not Sue?
lol... I put "marry" in the meme thingy. Oops.
No, Wedge MIGHT be a better pilot, but beyond that its Corran the whole way. By half way through the 1st book Corran has basically proved he is better then Jace.
Having to be cleaver doesn't = not a Gary Sue. If someone is so cleaver they can never loose thats a problem. The issue with Corran is he is great at everything he does with no flaws.
Like Force Jumping/Pushing/Pulling/Speed... oh, no wait a moment... he has none of those. He was also very hot headed early on and it got him in tons of trouble, it wasn't till post 'I, Jedi' that that trait started to phase out due to his Jedi training.
Corran has plently of weaknesses and messed up tons of times, the thing is he learns from all his mistakes. I'd call Corran one of the top ten pilots by NJO but early on (first 4 X-Wing books) barely top 50 and worked his way towards ton ten (most of the others where on his side due to the Empires attrition tatictis), though NJO on made it beyond made it clear the top two are Luke Skywalker followed by Jaina Solo and all others eat their fumes.
Corran Horn is a Mary Sue but he's one that works (mostly) and overall a great character. Yes, he had a special power that only a few had (Yoda, Vader, Luke, Jacen, etc...) but he had a weakness that almost no other force user had. Early on in his story he had the wishfulment angle of Sues but later has he grew wiser he lost that wishfulment story plotline but gained the wise master trope in its place looking at the new wishfulment Jedi in kinda a completeing the cycle moments (See his viewpoints on Kyp and Ganner). His silver saber was in the early EU days when everyone had one (example Mara getting the first purple saber and Kyle the first yellow saber etc...) and its two length mode he got just after Exar Kun got the first double bladed saber (but Corran's wasn't as useful). Yes his Sueisms wherent always perfectly countered out, but big attempts where made to... and I respect that about him. He's a character I feel LFL would be wise to consider adapting into more future stories.
The ONLY power Corran doesn't have is TK, and even that he can do because of his ultra great, ultra rare power absorb power.
And getting into trouble does = not a Stu. You really don't undrestand what a Stu is. Sure he gets in trouble, but hes AWESOME because of it. Its not a negative personality trait or a character flaw. Han is a criminal, but it just makes him cooler, its not a draw back. Its not a flaw. The fact that you really can't come up with a character flaw..........
Barely top 50 - LMAO, ya hes just the best pilot on Rogue Squardon besides Wedge (though he even does things Wedge doesn't like not turn side ways to go through a canyon). He does and can use TK, and the only other Jedi to show the power absorb is Yoda (who isn't nearly the pilot, investigator, have a special weapon or R2 unit etc... that Corran has).
Its ok to like the character, as I said he is basically wish forfillment for Stackpole, and he is created in such a way (a combo of Han and Luke basically) that he is that for MANY Star Wars fans. The reason so many people love Corran Horn is because thats who they'd want to be if they were int he Star Wars universe. ANd he still is that, he telsl LUke about hte force, not the other way around. He's become the equal of LUke and Han etc..., if not Superior.
I'd like to see Disney re-do some of the old EU stories, and X-Wing would be near the top of the list (an X-Wing cartoon series.....) but make Corran a REAL character, not a flawless Stu, and give some of his many many, many attributes to some of the other pilots to have a fully fleshed out cast. Its something Wraith Squadron did much better.
So, and how does this not apply to Kyp Durron as well? It's basically the same scenario, only that Kyp turned into a far more interesting character than Corran snore Horn could ever hope to be.
Sigh, why do I bother? Your lack of intelligent replies is really just legitimizing you, so I'll switch how I respond. You make a few accurate points but you're totally connecting them the wrong way.
First off the term Mary Sue is the accurate term (the fact the there are two terms for males: Marty Sue and Gary Stu proves this... its just that many guys can't handle a female term so two names that stuck where created to they wouldn't have to use the name mary and later sue too), second off it has dozens of 'qualifactions' according to some and terms no one agrees upon fully (again, check out Tvtropes write up on the term for examples), third its an over used term that often really means I just don't like ____ so I'll call it a Sue, fouth what makes someone awesome is subjective, fifth this is Star Wars where just about everyone is awesome in their own way, so your point again? Sixth, you're not even accuratly grasping my meaning, seventh I did too say his character was a Michael Stackpole wishfulment character so I fail to see how you too saying it makes you more right (that's a fallacy on your part), eight Corran can't force leap, pull, or speed either hence why him chasing his son in FotJ flat out said he couldn't and he never used those powers to chase him down (his son couldn't either, though his daughter can... apparently the midicholrans on the main side of his family is defective or something... and yes its canon (well was canon) that female offspring in his line of Jedi ancestors didn't share the weakness of the males)
Now did you just call Han a Sue? Or at least imply it...
As to Corran only being top 50... yes, Wedge said to all of them that there where better pilots out there and then prooved it with new additions such as Pash Cracken who joined later but was just as good. The whole point of the choosen characters in the novels was they weren't top ten yet, Wedge wanted to turn them into top ten material and train them how to survive as long as he had too. Yes, Wedge struck the jackpot by landing a force sensitive but Corran wasn't top ten material at introduction, by book 2 he was a contender Id say and books 3/4 solidified him. You can't forget about where he started his character journey.
Next off we BOTH previously said his character was pretty much Michael Stackpole inserting himself into the plot (he's even cosplayed as him)... so please don't mislead it as if only you previously said it. And one final point, no its not because 'it's what fans would do if in the story' since 'it's what they'd like to think it's what they would have done' sight but key difference.
We both agree that we both want some old EU stories adapted into the new canon and we both agree that X-Wing is near to the top of our wishlist. I too would prefer Corran not telling Luke about the force. Though I viewed it as an example of a student teaching a master, which does happen in rl, that while Corran was right kinda in said example he later learned the deeper meaning of Luke's lessons was more in line with the light side of the force and a greater long term lesson that needed teaching since Corrans 'right' choice lead to big risk of later going darkside since the choices he was making where far to aggressive... cause at the end of I, Jedi its just that Luke wasn't quite yet a wise enough master to fully articulate the full lesson but Corran learned it by the end (so many people miss that)... Now as stated though, I get the why it was done but wished they found a better way to do it. The point was both Corran and Luke growing in wisdom... I just wish that all Lukes understandings after Yodas passing in the EU didn't involve a student explaining it to him it got far overused (yes I do realize Luke learned a lot on his own too and I slightly oversold that).
As to Corran's power, Yoda did it in Ep II and III and many thought Vader did it in V (I forget if that has been stated to just be his robot hand absordbing the blast and for some reason not blowing up the hand or if its still like as Corran's back story stated Vader had that power too). In the EU Jacen Solo did it quite often and Satele Shan put even Yoda to shame by absorbing a Lightsaber that way (she too becomes a grandmaster of the Jedi order though and not a playable character, so at least its not too bad of a sin) she too then transforms that energy into a forceblast wave, which Corran could do to but I am failing to recall an example of him using it to force leap/speed or him ever absorbing a lightsaber plus all the times he used it where situational since he never carried a blaster just to shoot himself with so he could force push.
As stated though the term is overused, there are a few exceptions where I agree the character needs the labeling but Corran isn't one that needs the labeling because he's that glaringly a bad character. He is one that could benifit from a rewrite from a high quality writer/script writer who would reduce such Sueisms to make him less cliché... I would agree with that line of thinking. There can we move on to a new topic now? We both agree the core of his character and the plots he was in where good and we both would prefer it with sharper writing that removes some Sue traits from Corran... though thanks to TCW silver/white sabers are canon to the Jedi Order so Corran isn't alone with that anymore with it but the double phase saber has yet to be showen...
Corran didn't get away with murdering 25 million people for one when he threw a tempertantrum and blew up an entire solar system... unlike Kyp solely because Luke said he got better and therefore Mon Mothma forgave him (I'm assuming she must have pardoned him or something). That's not a crime a society should allow to be forgiven... Is this a trick question?
Now my dislike for Kyp is solely when KJA writes him. He makes Kyp ten times stronger than Luke in the force and has no shame about it... when any other author writing him just makes him become ten times more deluded (which I find really funny). In NJO I loved Kyp, he became the foil to Luke that Mara Jade used to be prior to marrying him (after which she only sometimes was :/ but I digress). Kyp is another character that imho needs adapting into any new stories, just with sharper writers who fix all the mistakes KJA did with him (just like I'd like Mara to have TZ's backstory of her not having killed any goodguys in the past even though she served the Emperor as his assassin... Id love a major long redemption arc for her, it would have been so much more fitting than having Luke just popping the question after pretending to date Lando for 3 years then the whole galaxy loves her and needs to watch holos of the wedding). Anyways back to Kyp, him being a slave and serving under Luke is a very interesting backstory that deserves a rewrite now that we know Anakin was one too, in a way it would be Luke's way of showing he can be a wiser and better master than Yoda was by not failing Kyp like Obi-wan/Yoda failed Anakin (from a certain pov)
Sorry double posted by accident when typing up a reply to Pevra... damn virtual key boards thinking I hit where I didn't
No, I just pointed out that "getting in trouble" isn't a character flaw and drew the comparsion to Han being a criminal.
Geez, read the books again. Corran is THE Best pilot, he beats pretty much everyone, he figures out how to win every engagment, even when his ship is completely disabled, he is able to beat Jace even while carrying Gavin etc.... As I said, he even pulls of manuevers that Wedge wouldn't even try. The thing with Corran is that he has no character flaws, he is great at everything he attempts, even the weakness they give him he over comes very easily. Why take way a Jedi's TK and then give him around around it?
Corran basically school Luke in how the force works is just another tick in the Stu box.
Vader doesn't absorb Hans bolts, and its debatable if it was a force power or Vader robotic hand. And unless its stated Corran can't do basic force abilities, its silly to assume he can't. And Corran is a stu, so why not call him what he is?
I'd like to see them do a cartoon version of Rogue Squadron. I'd leave Corran with the CorSec back-story and Mirax romance. But have Gavin be the one competiting with Jace on whos the best pilot and having to learn team work (that sorry works better for a 17 year old anyway). Have Erisi throwing herself at Wedge instead of Corran. Have a different one (maybe Inyri) have force abilities etc...... If you take all of Corrans attributes and abilities and spread them among the whole squadron, you could have some real characters.
Let's agree to disagree , this is getting tiring , we both read the books again recently (literally just starting book 5 Wraith Squardron) and came to different conclusions simple as that. I viewed it as a force sensitive pilot has the force and as an equalizor it means he can beat a slightly better pilot in terms of skill, you view it as he's too awesome.
I thought we were talking post KJA Kyp. The gist of your argument was that a failed character could be made into a better one and that happened with Kyp too.
I agree with all you wrote here.
Who else want's to see Lowbacca?
Would perfer Genji, I liked Lowbacca in Young Jedi Knights but he went down hill in many other series, especially Dark Nest.
Saw this on SHH. Probably nothing important but who knows
If true (and combine this with the rumors of Hasbro not making any new figures off EU characters) then guys.....I think the old EU is dead and Disney is trying to phase the old one out in order to let the new one take its place. But hey....think about that...while the old EU is gone we all get a nice new one
Once again, the post-ROTJ period of EU looks to be the hardest hit portion of the EU because of the ST. I think most of the recent EU is fairly safe though, and any EU in general that doesn't contradict the major plots and themes established by The Clone Wars, PT, and OT.
Not sure if people have seen it, but Leland Chee has said that the hierarchies established between different formats of SW are not as important as many think -- they are mainly used for reference. This, along with the Story Group's goal of creating one continuity moving forward, actually suggests to me that more of the EU will survive than some of us think.
Except for the post-ROTJ period. That seems likely to be rebooted.
Eric Geller @ericgeller 2h
A Lucasfilm spokesperson has confirmed to me that neither Disney nor LFL ordered a prohibition on EU characters in the SW Weekends parade.
Maybe. But so much recent EU has been created with the involvement of LFL and George Lucas. So this kind of content probably doesn't need rebooting.
The thing about pre-ROTJ being "safe" EU is just as much that the Star Wars brand is going to be moving forward into ST territory so there won't be much content that will actively contradict the Pre-PT/PT/OT era. Sure they'll be Rebels set in the "Dark Times" but that is a relatively blank slate compared to how extremely detailed the post ROTJ EU period is. Like I can't see anything coming from Lucasfilm that will ever directly contradict, like "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter" or "The Approaching Storm" or the metric ton of PT content.
Oh the post RotJ EU will be rebooted imho, question is which if any characters in that time period will be apart of said reboot and which will simply be forgotten until someone adapts them back in at a much later date, further will their designs be rebooted too? In context of parades and toy discussions above, say like how Nick Fury was white for 40 years but now is black, it would explain why Hasbro has a halt order on EU but the parades may or may not. Or it could mean Disney/LFL doesn't seem the harm in letting fans dress up in EU designs for some/all characters for another year vs Hasbro who they want focusing on OT and Rebels toys atm, only kinda TCW since it still makes money for then but not so much PT products beyond some for die hard fans since Disney wants to move away from the prequals and especially not EU since they want to move away from them since why make 3 EU toys for a few die hards when you can make 3 more Rebels toys for all the kids this coming Holiday season.
This may or may not be anything against the EU, but in either case it is a wise business move... the EU characters if they survive may radically alter designs, though may not too, or maybe they just might fade away to obscurity... However tons of kids will want Rebels toys this christmas and why limit production lines by making some EU toys when they can make a few more Rebels or OT toys/collectibles instead that generate more profit anyways? After all, let's say some EU does survive, a sound and proven Disney tactic is the back in the vault method where they wait to bring it back out again once it coincides with a new product or in this case only bring out the EU again once they make it into VII/Rebels/etc... now all the EU fans and fans of the new product arrive enmass to buy the new toy who used to be EU but is now higher level canon. Thus making buying it a mad house which in turn only generates news of lack of availbility thus increasing demand even further... anyone try to buy anything Disney Frozen of late? Its still hard to get and product is selling out... business wise its just not worth making the EU toys, especially after a $4 billion investment to get the rights to Star Wars. Disney needs Star Wars generating as much money as soon a possible to convince people to buy their stock, cutting less profitable toy production in favor of better sellers is an obvious way to help do this as fast as humanly possible.
Not to mention we may soon be getting product relating to these Darth Vader tv specials too (for the teen/adult collectors maybe? Kids?)
Good point, though I could see potentially see everything we know about Darth Plagueis being rewritten. If he is indeed going to be a part of the sequels - even if only in flashback - then I highly doubt he will be a Muun.