Speculation Official Sequel Trilogy/Legends Expanded Universe discussion thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII - Spoilers Allowed' started by YoureNotJonesy, Nov 2, 2012.

  1. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    If she has the same traits as in the books, people will still hate her, I guarantee it.
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  2. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    No matter what the nature of a character is, some people will hate them - because different people have radically different tastes.

    I get the impression, at least, that there is no such thing as a 100% "unhated" character.
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  3. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    But many more will still love her... what's your point exactly? There will always be haters but we all know over all she's way more popular than hated, its just a small vocal minority that hate her and a mild amount who are just so so on her... still the point is what matters is how many will like the new version of her if she comes to be, it could go either way. Though knowing the fan bases issues with her and general traits they like odds are leaning towards more favoring her than before.

    Plus most of her hate comes from later works involving her, like Allegance when she duels Vader... so if she's redone and that never happens their goes one of the major points haters have on her. T-R- is very right, just because one dislikes a Legends character, doesn't mean they will dislike the canon interpurtation of that character. Some logically still will, but over all if a popular legends character crosses over odds are they will become a popular Canon character so over all the net gain to Star Wars is benifical. People leave shows and franchises all the time when say a favorite dies or a hated character gets introduced but its the overall gain in viewership that matters, not the loss of any individual fan. Not to mention many fans who leave often eventually come back... what matters more though is appealing to new fans and Star Wars is in sore need of Strong Female characters in larger ammounts of roles.
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    If she is remade into a better character, I will have nothing against her.
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  5. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6


    MOST fans don't know that she ever existed (including Mark himself, who has famously said he always envisioned Luke as being like Obi-wan until his son told him about her, and even then, he's always been diplomatically indifferent). This is clearly a case of 'we'll see what happens' but jumping on the fan wagon every time an unknown female (some have speculated that it could even be Ashoska) is a tad premature...
  6. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    My point is exactly what Pevra said. If she is in Rebels with the same arrogant, obnoxious, "I know and do everything better than the others attitude", people will still voice their legit criticism.
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  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    If she's in Rebels, she'll be on the Imperial side, won't she?

    Maybe she could be to the Inquisitor as Ahsoka is to Anakin - a minion - a little cocky - but answering to a more powerful and assertive boss.
  8. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    My point was out of how many knew her most liked her, not that most fans know her. Those are two totally seperate things.

    We both know she has a big fan base out of how many know her and that is a good indication that fans who dont know her will mostly like her regardless of how either of use her feel about her. My point was only that to most movie only fans she'll translate well, likely even more so if her biggest Mary Sueisms are left behind in the Legends.
    Last edited by Ryus, May 26, 2014
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  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In Book of Sith, Emperor's Hands are promoted from the Inquisitorius.
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  10. Abadacus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2014
    star 1

    It'd be great to see young Mara be a foil for Vader. A clear mimicry of his relationship with Ahsoka, but with the rivalry and mistrust instead of faith in one another and resentment instead of affection.

    I have plenty of issues with her characterization in some books (and I see many missed opportunities where she could've been used better) but the rabid hate I see for her in some corners of the internet honestly disturbs me a little.
    If I take examples from only the worst characterizations, I could make an argument for pretty much ANY major EU character (or any long-running franchise) being "overpowered" or "mary-sue", but I choose to remember the characters as I know them from the better stories. These are the stories I hope the Story Group will be taking inspiration from for the new continuity.
    Mara's enough of a badass to be the equal of her husband, and I wouldn't have it any other way. She's rude, abrasive and overly critical, of course, but that's what makes her a flawed and relatable character - it's even an essential part of why her and Luke work together: Everyone in the galaxy treats him as "Famous War Hero Skywalker", but she treats him as "Big-Hearted Slow-Witted Farmboy Luke". She keeps him grounded and he sees through her spiky shell.
    It's not like Leia or Han have an "I know and do everything better than the others attitude" in the OT, after all.;) Conflict, snark and banter are at the heart of Star Wars adventures.

    I hope she is arrogant and mean in Rebels. Zahn was a little over-affectionate for his character when he made her a hero-lite when she was Hand. Making her be the kind of person she'll later need to forgive herself for having been adds important depth to her character arc.

    Mara was exactly the hero I needed when her stories first came out, and I hope we'll be seeing more of her going forward. Star Wars just wouldn't feel the same without her.
    Last edited by Abadacus, May 26, 2014
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  11. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I wouldn't marry a person that thinks I am dumb.

    Imperial agent Mara is okay if she isn't sue-ified, but I outright hated her as wife of Luke Skywalker. A match born in hell.
  12. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6


    As does the blind devotion to 'her' bothers me - I don't find the rudeness, the nastiness, the 'OMG! Shes so perfectly flawed the Galaxy will implode without her' endearing at all - Leia was 'spikey and abrasive' at times, Miss Perfect is down right abusive when she isn't besting Vader, or being the Savior of the Empire or whatever.

    Luke deserves far better, and so do we.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    It is in many ways perverse. Luke with his small helpers syndrome coupled with a emotional leech like Mara Jade. I find that more worrisome than romantic.
  14. Abadacus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2014
    star 1

    I don't think there's any argument to be made that she thinks he's dumb.
    She just teases him about it. A serene Jedi Master is hardly going to feel hurt by some snark, they've had more than enough glances inside each other's minds to know how much they each care for and respect one another.
    As I said, her taunts keep him grounded. He enjoys it and often gives as good as he gets. It's a dynamic that usually exists between close male friends, but I've noticed some people get freaked out when it's a woman acting that way toward "the hero".
    If we're reading those interactions completely differently we'll just have to disagree, but I wouldn't want to see Luke with someone "toned down" from Mara's challenging personality. Master Skywalker is up to the challenge.

    Blind devotion? Where?
    I'm just voicing my support for a favorite character who's inclusion in the new canon is in question. I've done the same for Wedge, Iella, or even Qrygg. Mara just plays a far more important role in the franchise, so the discussion's been more about her.
    Allegiance was just a generally disappointingly-plotted book, IMO, but that's also in the time when the recent EU was losing my interest generally. I think you're looking at a few bad examples and seeing a lot that just isn't there beyond them.
    The character you're so opposed to just doesn't have much in common with the one I've read about for decades. I just hope if she's included, it'll be close enough to the way I see her that you get a new chance to like her.
    Last edited by Abadacus, May 26, 2014
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I thought she was more arrogant and berating rather than "teasing". Luke bracing this all the time isn't really strong, it is rather weak. Like he lets her go on and be his verbally abusive girlfriend because he doesn't want to lose her.

    A trend in society is also that people don't think women can be abusive towards men.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, May 26, 2014
  16. Abadacus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2014
    star 1

    I'm sorry but that's a rather tired strawman argument. If there's anyone who really doesn't believe women can be abusive towards men they're a tiny fringe minority.
    Getting into how our support systems deal with abused people from one demographic or another is a touchy topic and way outside the purview of this thread.
    What relevance does real-world abuse have to their relationship? I just don't get where you see that. I've seen abuse. Mara's teasing (or even insults if you interpret it that way) come nowhere close to it.

    Mara: "Stupid, stupid. A big fat diversion—the oldest trick on the list. And I fell for it like some dumb farm kid."
    Luke: "Watch your language."

    She baits him, he playfully takes it and snarks back. I don't see someone weak and passive here, I see someone flirting. I can only imagine the cheeky grins they were throwing back and forth during this exchange.
    I'd find Luke to be weak if he was so insecure that he couldn't take a ribbing. He was supposed to have outgrown that by TESB.

    Luke: "Smells good. Just like we used to make back home."
    Mara: "Really? And I always thought the reason you left Tatooine was to join the Rebellion and save the galaxy."
    Luke: "No, it was the food — definitely the food."

    It almost seems like Luke has a self-depreciating sense of humor. Hmm. That certainly would befit a humble Jedi master. Almost reminds me of the attitude a little green guy once had.

    "I am so glad I found you and didn't kill you."

    "Time for you to do one of the six or eight things you do best."

    Even while they're teasing each other, they regularly remind one another of the mutual respect and admiration they share. Outside of a few bad examples, I really don't see "berating" as something that comes up in their interactions, and certainly never abuse.
    Quotes aren't even particular favorites of mine, just what a lazy google search came up with.

    Maybe you've gotten a different impression from some of the recent books I haven't read. As we all know, the EU is rather mixed in quality. If that's the case, I choose not to let weird mischaracterizations from less well-written works redefine a character in my mind, especially since it's all "Legends" at this point anyways. I don't begrudge you a different opinion, but I hope you'll keep an open mind if the Story Group can get her right going forward.
    Last edited by Abadacus, May 26, 2014
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Even when the words are harsh - there's always affection in them.

    "If you ever do this to me again I will vape you where you stand" regarding her pregnancy (NJO Edge of Victory I) is part of a back and forth banter of this kind.
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  18. JediGirl_Angelina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2003
    star 3
    I never thought Luke needed to be grounded. He showed a very healthy mentality throughout the films, never cocky, but always supportive to his friends and co-pilots. He was the big hero of the galaxy yet he never bragged about it.

    Along the marysue-ism I always felt there was a lot of self-insertion of Zahn into the character too. Trough Mara, he was the one who treated Luke in such a passive-aggressive manner.
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  19. Ryus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2013
    star 4
    Well considering Zahn has no input and admitted no one has talked to him about adapting anything hes done. Odds are all his self-insertion of opinions on Luke through Mara will be a non-issue in canon moving forward if she's adapted into canon (or not for that matter). So there goes much of the reasons people dislike Mara right there... ;)

    I agree Zahn did this with Mara to Luke too much in the HoT Dulogy but I felt most of that was aimed at other EU authors, like KJA, who where making Jedi far too powerful and out of character. It wasnt so much aimed at Luke imho but how other authors used him in those few books.
    Last edited by Ryus, May 26, 2014
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  20. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Save the perpetual 'snarking' for Han and Leia - I like my wise, thoughtful, Jedi Master Luke.

    As an afterthought, In none of those passages can I see a single instance of Luke 'dishing it out' - more like soft lobes being smacked back at him - well, maybe here:

    "Time for you to do one of the six or eight things you do best."

    And that just reminds me of how wonderful she supposedly is *blurg*
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  21. Abadacus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2014
    star 1

    That's her talking to him, there. It's snarky, but it's definitely a respectful compliment. "Watch your language" doesn't count? Luke's always had more of a sense of humor than people give him credit for, albeit a much more subtle one than Han's.
    Their relationship works precisely because he's usually so wise, thoughtful, and serene. He needs a more cynical and (dark) humored partner to play off. Remember him and Han in Jabba's palace? That was perfect.
    With Han and Leia settled down, Mara fills that role beautifully. She allows him to feel like that idealistic farmboy who could take on the whole Empire himself again, instead of the famous war hero with the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders.

    Those character traits are why it's appropriate for Luke to "dish it out" a little less than her. He's usually serious and responsible in the extreme, but that could get boring (see: common complaint about PT Jedi) if that's the only side of him we get to see. Having a good foil for contrast and getting to see their private moments and banter adds depth and likability to his character.

    Grounding someone doesn't mean harassing them to correct character flaws. Luke lost a lot of elements of a normal childhood, and was then thrust into a war, then the spotlight of galactic heroism.
    Someone who doesn't handle him with hero-worship and who can make him feel like the aforesaid "idealistic farmboy" again is exactly what he wants at that point.
    Last edited by Abadacus, May 26, 2014
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  22. Six Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2014
    star 3
    I quickly glanced over that quote, and I completely misread it. I almost spit my drink out.
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  23. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6

    See, to me that comes across as belittling (to Luke) - treating him like he IS still a kid. It's not something I want to see in the ST if Luke has a partner at all. I do think deserves someone who respects him (as a man, not just as a Jedi Master or 'Hero') who at least tries to understand him, but also knows that he will ALWAYS have to answer to his 'station' in the Galaxy, and unfortunately, that might even mean coming 'second' at times. *Biting my tongue here - I write far too much to say any more!* [face_blush][face_laugh]

    Again, I think trying to retool 'Mara' would be a huge mistake - in the end, no one would be happy.
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  24. Julian Skywalker-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2014
    star 1
    No Mara Jade please. I liked her in the EU, but I'd rather they start fresh.
  25. aleja2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 2
    No, making money makes Disney very, very happy. And Mara makes money, or she wouldn't have her own comics/books, or be featured on the box cover artwork for the card game expansion, or be one of the few EU characters to have multiple action figures.

    Nor is Disney stupid. They are going to milk Star Wars incessantly for the foreseeable future, and that means burning through content. And content is expensive.

    They already own Mara/The Thrawn Trilogy. I'll bet anything we will see a retelling of the most popular EU stories, retooled and reconfigured, at some point. Maybe not set in the same time period. Maybe not with the same character names. "Mara" might be moved forward to be a contemporary of the new generation in the new Episodes timeline, or a Thrawn-like story will be put into the Rebels time period or set just post ROTJ instead of five years later.

    But Disney knows that Mara is popular, and that she/TTT are regularly cited on mainstream websites as the best of the Legends/Expanded Universe. It's fashionable among a certain subset here to hate on her/anything Zahn wrote, but there a ginormous population of Star Wars content consumers out there who would never frequent a message board or even a fansite. Those are the people Disney wants to get into the movie theaters/watching TV/buying Marvel comics/attending Star Wars Weekends at the theme parks (funny enough, I just bought a Black Series Mara Jade figure at Disneyland [face_laugh]). Disney knows committed, involved fans will vacuum up whatever they put out. But they need to reach others to make back their investment. And Mara is the Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow of the Star Wars universe - complete with tragic backstory working for the bad guys before she joined the good guys, black leather combat suit and red hair. It's a time honored character trope that works.

    Again, Disney is not stupid. And if the character is handled correctly within the new stories, then more than just Disney people will be very happy. Including all the new people who never bothered to read the EU, or who stopped after TTT.
    Last edited by aleja2, May 26, 2014
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