****Official SIFO-DYAS Discussion thread****

How about this....

"This clone order was placed by a Jedi Master Sido-Dyas..." at this point it wouldn't be followed by Sifo-Dyas died 10 yaers ago...

then Later on Dooku tells Obi-1 that Darth Sidious is in control of the senate.

If Lucas would have kept the name as Sido-Dyas, then Obi-Wan could have made a connection between what Taun-We & Count Dooku told him. It changed to Sifo-Dyas inna script revision, so now it's a bit more confusing. Sometimes Mr.Lucas, you're first ideas are usually your best ones.

 

Is it confusing, or is that the intention? It's not like Palpatine showed up with a halloween mask, ten billion credits, and signed the registry 'I.P. Freely.'

 

Yeah, there's definatley a fool to be had here. It is far too obvious, especially in TPM to say, "Oh man! Emperor Palpatine is actually Chancellor Palpatine! And to think, they have the same chin!" I dunno. There's not much too it, and I would assume there would have to be some sort of revelation to be had in the PT. I'm wondering why Mace and Yoda didn't raise one bit of suspicion about this Sifo-Dyas, or about the cloners telling Obi-Wan he used to be in the jedi council. Do Mace and Yoda indeed know him? Hhhhmmmm. I NEED ANSWERS!

 

So who's the Sith Lord in control of Hundreds of Senators? >>

Palpatine also known as Sidious
also known as visiting the
Kaminoans and asking for
a clone army as the fake
version of jedimaster
CYPHO DIE ASS!

 

obi-wan doesn't know who sidious that name has never been mentioned by any of the "good guys" is so sido-dyas would have been a good name. technicaly it would be the star wars fans that would figure it out long before the councel does.

 

Let's clear up a few thing about Sifo-Dyas.

FACT #1: Sifo-Dyas existed
Obi-Wan Kenobi recognizes the name, does not dispute that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master on the council, and can date his death. If Sifo-Dyas was merely an alias of Palpatine or Dooku, then Kenobi would've known (or not known anything about him, as evidence would've been erased).

FACT #2: Palpatine/Sidious is NOT Sifo-Dyas.
Despite the seeming similarity between the name "Sidious" and "Sifo-Dyas" it would've taken one of the more major tricks in the dark-side's bag in order to pull such a forgery off. For one, the order of the clones came over 10 years ago, when Palpatine was a Senator, "Sidious" was training Darth Maul, and Sifo-Dyas was sitting on the Jedi Council.

FACT #3: The "real" Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the clone army
Kenobi says that Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time that the Clone army was allegedly supposed to have been ordered.

CONCLUSION:
Sifo-Dyas was killed by Sidious and his name was used to place the order for the clone army.

Kamino is out 'beyond the outer rim' according to Dex. News of a Jedi Master's death probably wouldn't reach them all that quickly, so someone showing up and claiming to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas would probably be taken at face value, especially if he carried a lightsaber and wore traditional Jedi garb.

This points to either Sidious, Maul, or Dooku as being the person who purhcased the Clone army from the Kaminoans. They used the name Sifo-Dyas so as not to arrouse any suspicions of the Kaminoans and to leave a paper trail back to the Jedi Council when the Clones attack when they mature.

It's a brilliant plot by Palpatine to frame the Jedi Knights for amassing an army and starting a war without the consent of the Supreme Chancellor or the Senate. In effect, he can now paint the Jedi Order as overstepping it's bounds and brining war and discourse to the Republic. This will allow Palpatine to persecute the Jedi, unobstructed by the people, and eliminate the last remaining threat to him seizing total power as a despot.

And...in the end...the populace will THANK him for ridding them of a menace that they probably never fully trusted and brought war to their planetary systems...

Absolutely brilliant.

 

the sith lord in control of the senate is darth sidious...dooku explained that to obi wan

 

Right, and Darth Sidious is Palpatine.

Palpatine can't possibly be a Nubian Senator, a Sith Lord, and a Jedi Master all at the same time! At most, he can only be two.

 

Jar Jar.

 

Unless Lucas really tries hard to show who he is in Episode Three, the fact that Sifo Dyas was such an important name in AOTC but didn't get much mention or discussion in the movie signals to me the following: that Sifo Dyas was a real jedi master, and that Palpy/Dooku used his name to secretly order the cloned army. Yeah yeah, this looks too simplistic, but I think it's a little hard for Lucas to actually go out of his way to establish yet another secret/changing identity in Episode Three.

As it is now, any other complex theory is a little too much and it would signal a complete incompetence of the Jedi, especially Yoda's, and though the Jedi's use of The Force was diminishing, I don't think we can assume it goes that far. So basically: Sifo Dyas died more than ten years ago, and the evil duo used his name to order the clones ten years ago, after Palpy came to power in office.

 

DeltaJedi,

Wow. You're brilliant. (seriously). That's some pretty good thinking. Your Conclusion is good.

I've been CERTAIN that Sidious was Sifo-Dyas. But now.... Hmmm.

 

Delta, I agree with mostly everything you said. But I have a hard time seeing how you came to the conclusion of Sidious/Dooku killing Sifo Dyas. It's possible, but a little unnecessary it seems. It doesn't seem likely because A) we are not given the cause of his death, B) Yoda and Mace do not elaborate on him at all, and therefore C) there is no mystery surrounding his death.

 

While this thread is serious thinking, you guys are reaching to far!!!

I think it is Sidious/Dooku. No one else!

By that I mean, even if they pretended they are Syfo-Dyas!

 

Well, there needn't be that part of the theory for it to all work, but I'd wager that someone who planned this kind of enterprise out would be certain that the person they were going to impersonate was out of the way before they did it.

Now, it could've been good timing that a ruling member of the Jedi Council just happened to die so that Sidious/Dooku whomever could go take his place, but I'm more inclined to believe that his death was 'arranged' so that everything could proceed.

 

http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/episode-ii/sith.asp

Jedinet says Darth Sidious is Syfo-Dyas

 

Another factor that has to be considered is the monetary one. Follow the credits.

That clone army looked pretty expensive to me, plus the Kaminoans (sp?) taled about building more if they got more money. So, whoever ordered the clone army had to be someone with money.

Now, we know Dooku probably has the dough since he is a Count. The questions is would Sidioud/Palpatine have the money at that particular time?

Sorry, I may have just made things more complicated, but I think its a valid point.

 

just remember that palpatine was big into cloning......he had himself cloned many times and kept fresh "bodies" to be inhabited all over the galaxy.....so it wouldnt suprise me if hes been cloning himself for a long time....also remember that Palpatine has hidden his true identity from teh jedi council for atleast 10 yrs....longer than that even, so it is possible that he couldve been Sifo-Dyas, altho i doubt palps ever had a shred of the light side in him. Either way...Palps knew that he would need an army big enough to tackle anything.....honestly, i think Palps is so immersed in the darkside that he can see the future.....i mean there are factors that he cannot control, and the just fact that they side on his favor is too coincidental.....as everything has happen according to his plans....even in RotJ he says to Vader that "Everything is happenening as he has FORSEEN".....forseen means he can see the future.....no just the near....but the distant....and hes been able to do this for some time

 

Okay so here is my 2 cents worth. First obviosly Dooku would not know about the clone army. Sideous/Palpatine(Yes they are the same) is planning on betraying him to take on Anikin as his Muscle. Remember one thing for ep1, there are only two because the greed for power in the dark side wont allow for more, if the apprentice becomes to powerful, he will destroy his master and take control. now obviously Dooku feels he is gettng close to that point, hence the simalar "Join me and we will destroy the sith" speech ever so close to the "Join me and together ... rule the galaxy as father and son" idea. So basicly i believe that Palpatine impersonated Syfo-dyas to the kamodians and ordered the clone army for his future plans to create the empire he would rule, but to make the senate go along he had to create the need for the military power hence his leading Dooku in the control of this seperatist movement.
As for the real Syfo-dyas, even as a member of the Jedi Council, what if he fell to the dark side.(Follow me here) Remeber Yoda and Mace talking about their "Weakness" at seeing the darkside. This is sort of expained in the book and i read it to mean that unless a Jedi was to kind of lean into the darkside he was not going to be able to sense a flow of the darkside power. And since the Jedi believed the sith to have been destroyed why would they teach there numbers to take the risk of falling to darkness. If this was true it would give ample opprotunity to Syfo to work covertly with in them, take on an apprentice, like say a young Palpatine, that he could train in using the darkside to gain control over the senate, there by Syfo having control withing the Jedi council and the senate. Only one problem, Palpatine becomes to powerful kills off his master and continues on his course to gain galatic control. This would also explain how Palpatine got instructed in using the force in the fisrt place.

But of course that is just my opinion, and i could be wrong.

 

Palptine is Sidious!

 

Anakin is Darth Vader!
Ben is Obi-Wan!

 

It was never confirmed that Sifo Dyas was a ruling memeber of the Jedi Council. Lama Su says that, but he could have been misinformed. As far as I can tell, Yoda and Mace are the ruling members of the Jedi Council. I don't know who is ranked higher, but I would go with Yoda.

Also, Sifo Dyas does not = Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan says Sifo Dyas indeed was a real Jedi.

 

All I know is...

this better had be explained in Ep. III!!

 

if not explained, then it's sidious!

 

I posted this in another thread in reply to another issue, but felt it belonged here too:


I believe that Dooku was the one who dealt with the Kaminoans and Jango because he has the financial resources and the ability to travel around the Galaxy in hiding much more than the Supreme Chancellor could.

I also believe Dooku assumed Dyas's name when dealing with the Kaminoans - and probably never met them face-to-face (remember "we thought you were never coming"). All they cared about was how deep his pockets were.

At the time, Dooku knew that Dyas was recently dead and chose to use his name because the timing of the events would make it impossible to confirm for certain whether or not Dyas actually did place the order prior to his death.

If Dooku chose the name of a Jedi who died long before the order was placed, or simply made up a fake Jedi name, it would help prove that the clone order was not really placed by a Jedi.

I think Palpatine (or someone under his control - possibly Gunray) may use the information that the clones were ordered by a Jedi Master (long before the vote to create an army was held) as a way to undermine the public's respect for the Jedi and even paint them as war mongers. By Episode 4, the public doesn't seem to have a very high regard for the Jedi order, despite being the protectors of the Republic only 20 years before, so I think it's a safe bet that the Jedi Purge isn't just about killing Jedi but also killing the "idea" of the Jedi.


With regards to the circumstances of Dyas's death, I think it's just as likely that Dooku killed Dyas as it is that he died of natural causes or simply on a mission. I don't think the specifics of who Dyas was are important, it's what was done in his name that is important.

 

A quick reiteration of the canonical (film-inclusive only) FACTS:

1. Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi Master, ordered the clone army.

2. Sifo-Dyas "was killed ALMOST ten years ago."

3. The names Sidious and Sifo-Dyas are strikingly similar.

4. Tyranus, the Sith-identity of Count Dooku, hired Fett to be the clone prototype.

5. Dooku/Tyranus serves Darth Sidious.

As I said, those are the facts. As of yet, it is still opinion as to whether Sidious IS Palpatine. But if they are the same man--and most evidence points to that fact--then:

6. Palpatine is a powerful Dark Lord of the Sith.

Where then did Palpatine receive Jedi training? It follows that Palpatine disguised himself as a Jedi to learn the arts. The name of that Jedi is Sifo-Dyas.

Also, I have a question: Why has it been advanced by some that S-D was on the Jedi Council? Is this a line of dialogue I missed in my three viewings of Ep.II??