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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

****Official SIFO-DYAS Discussion thread****

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Missninfan, May 18, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Nikku

    Darth_Nikku Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2002
    I couldn't possibly read every message in this thread, but with a few notable exceptions it seems to be fraught with the most inane and ridiculous ideas I've ever heard. Now, who IS Sifo Dyas? Let's use logic to narrow it down a bit.

    1) Darth Maul- I've read that some actually believe he may really be Sifo Dyas, who defected. That is just stupid.
    Darth Maul was trained from infancy by Darth Sidious. I think Qui-Gon and Obi Wan would've remembered a fully tatooed, horned Jedi Master anyway.

    2) Mace Windu. Okay, who came up with this lame idea? Lucas isn't going to make Mace Windu evil, he would never hear the end of it.

    3) Count Dooku. Interesting. Some Jedi might change their name upon entering the order. Jedi Master Count Dooku is rather long-winded, isn't it? Sifo-Dyas could have been his Jedi name and when he left the order he could have begun using his real name. But, alas, it's not possible. I'm pretty sure everyone, including Obi Wan would be aware of this fact. A clue is the time period we have here. Okay, Sifo Dyas died ten years prior, right? And the clones were ordered around the same time? It that's true then Dooku couldn't have ordered the clone army for Sidious. HE WASN'T HIS APPRENTICE YET! Ten years ago, Maul was his apprentice, or newly dead apprentice at least. Sidious acquired a new apprentice after this- Darth Rage. (He existed, the Jedi killed him, you should know this). This means Dooku became his apprentice after the clone army was ordered. (On a side note, Lucas introduced a couple of anamolies here, one being the title Count Dooku. I'm guessing you have to be born with this title and Jedi are taken from their families from birth and aren't really informed of their parentage so how could he be a count? Also, since Jengo was supposed to have been hired by Tyranus(Dooku), how does that work with the period of time we have here, he's lied to us in some way, obviously(through one of the characters)

    4) Yoda- I didn't see anyone mention him in a post, but if you did, go jump off of Cloud City.

    5) Sidious/Palpatine(Yes, Sidious is Palpatine, if you think otherwise, you should be drawn and quarterned. It's the same actor, the same everything, it's the same person. And there are no clones here, either. Palpatine doesn't start cloning himself until he becomes Emperor. The Kaminoans hadn't even perfected the technique yet.)- This makes some sense. Palpatine has the funds necessary for payment and couldn've masqueraded as Sifo Dyas. The Kaminoans apparently don't know about anything that goes on in the Republic anyway. The only real hole in this is how Palpatine was able to take a trip to the Outer Rim, make a transaction of credits large enough for a clone army, and no one notices.

    6) Qui-Gon- This seems likely. It would be a good explanation as to why Obi-Wan "forgets" about him in the new trilogy. (However, to be exact, he just says that Yoda trained him, he never even says he was HIS master, and why would he bring up Qui-Gon when he didn't bring up any other Jedi?) But in the end, it doesn't make sense. Remember that Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's apprentice. He couldn't just wait until Obi-Wan fell asleep, left their room at the temple and gone to the Outer Rim, ordered a Clone Army for no apparent reason, and came back before Obi Wan woke up. The Jedi keep a pretty good tab on their own.

    7) Sifo Dyas- Given that the circumstances and time of his death are a bit mysterious to us viewers, it's hard to tell. It doesn't make any logical sense with the information we have, however.

    So who do I think it was? Palpatine seems the most likely, although it's a stretch to the imagination to think that any of them could have done it. I think Lucas is insulting our intelligence a bit on this one.

    Oh, and the whole thing about Jedi disappearing when they die and becoming one with the Force? In case you didn't notice, Anakin didn't vanish, Luke burned his body, but he still turned into a Jedi ghost. Qui-Gon had the same burning ritual done to him. We hear
     
  2. MasterMaximus

    MasterMaximus Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2002
    Of all the talk about the role Dias plays in the series I'm surprised no one else has thought of this. Lucas said that AOTC takes place about 10 years fallowwing PH. And Syfo Diaz a member of the Jedi council died mysteriously about 10 years ago. The same time period as Darth Maul.
    Think about it, palpatine needs a man on the inside to speak for the jedi council when ordering the clone army. Diaz ordered the army, donned the facepaint and then did his whole "at last we will have revenge" thing.
    Remember the look of concern between Mace and Yoda when obi-wan asked if the council ever approved the order of the army? They knew of Syfo's seperation but unaware of what things he may have done with the power of the council to justify his actions. They could not allow his mutiny to go public because the council would become weary of the Jedi and one of their own separating. Resulting in power being taken from them.
    Just a theory
     
  3. MasterMaximus

    MasterMaximus Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2002
    Of all the talk about the role Dias plays in the series I'm surprised no one else has thought of this. Lucas said that AOTC takes place about 10 years fallowwing PH. And Syfo Diaz a member of the Jedi council died mysteriously about 10 years ago. The same time period as Darth Maul.
    Think about it, palpatine needs a man on the inside to speak for the jedi council when ordering the clone army. Diaz ordered the army, donned the facepaint and then did his whole "at last we will have revenge" thing.
    Remember the look of concern between Mace and Yoda when obi-wan asked if the council ever approved the order of the army? They knew of Syfo's seperation but unaware of what things he may have done with the power of the council to justify his actions. They could not allow his mutiny to go public because the council would become weary of the Jedi and one of their own separating. Resulting in power being taken from them.
    Just a theory

     
  4. The_Abstract

    The_Abstract Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2002
    For the last 3 posters, here's a little rock to put a hole in your theories.

    Jango Fett told Obi-Wan a man named Tyranus hired him for the job.

    Later Dooku is called Lord Tyranus by Darth Sidious.

    HMMMMM.....

    PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE ALREADY!!!
     
  5. cjwebbie

    cjwebbie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Like many SW fans I was expecting a mind boggling twist in Ep. II because of that memorable scene in Ep. V when Vader informs Luke of their relationship.
    I now believe that GL is "saving" the twist for Ep. III and furthermore I feel that somehow Sifo-Dyas will be an integral component of the shocking revelation.
    Only GL can know the truth about all our speculations but perhaps there is a strong clue to be gleaned from the character's name.
    After all it's not too much of a stretch to claim that Darth Vader is a disguised version of "Dark Father".
    I suggest that Sifo and Dyas are derived from the words "cypher" and "dyas" thereby combining to describe a "coded double".
    The likely conclusion of this reasoning is that Sifo-Dyas is either; i)someone we already know but who is pretending to be another person or ii)a clone of some important chracter
    * * * * *
    Food for thought: Due to his close ties with cloning experts Palpatine was able to impregnate Shmi Skywalker with a clone of himself?
     
  6. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2001
    I liked your thoughts up until the last sentence. :p

    I suppose there can be some mystery on who Syfo-Dyas is but..........

    Here are the facts.

    1) Syfo-Dyas was once a real jedi. But he died (though we don't know what the circumstances surrounding his death were) almost ten years ago.

    2) Count Dooku left the Jedi order almost ten years ago.

    3) Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives. But this could only have been done by a Jedi.

    4) Someone using the name Syfo-Dyas orders an army of clones from Kamino.

    5) A man called Tyranus hires Jango Fett to be the template of the clones.

    6) Darth Sidious calls Count Dooku, Lord Tyranus at the end of the film. Thus connecting Dooku to Tyranus.

    Everything basically tells us in the film that Count Dooku took the name Syfo-Dyas and ordered clones in the name of the Jedi council.

    There is no secret behind Syfo-Dyas after the scene with Tyranus and Sidious. That scene basically explains it all.

     
  7. darth_flatulent

    darth_flatulent Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Sifo-Dyas is a jedi who got killed a few years after TPM. He was very talented in seeing the future and sensed the Separist army so he went to Kamino and ordered a large army of clones. Then a few years later, he died. It's all explained in a book called Star Wars: Episode II: Attack of the Clones. Read it! It's very interesting and it explains a lot of things!
     
  8. HL&S

    HL&S Magistrate Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Wow... darth flatulent, i'm not even sure you know what you're talking about.

    Obviously you didn't read the AOTC novel, or understand AOTC the movie.

    I think even the people who believe Syfo is Qui-Gon would agree with me here.
     
  9. Tanakin

    Tanakin Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2002
    I think It is Qui-Gon Ginn ! He dies right after it according to the time line found on the books and it makes perfect sense !
     
  10. Nephrite

    Nephrite Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 11, 2002
    I bet Sifo-Dyas won't even be mentioned in Episode III.
     
  11. Big_Daddy_Cool

    Big_Daddy_Cool Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 2, 2002
    I have found the official Sifo Dyas Topic, since I first posted my message, but here it is anyway:
    After reading some of the thoughts on the other string, I saw some logical, viable suggestions and some rather silly ones. I am attempting to sort through and state what we know for sure, and then I think the possible options will be narrowed significantly. Some of the facts were taken from other posts, but in effect this is what we know:

    1) He was a Jedi Master. Obi-Wan Kenobi recognizes the name, does not dispute that Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master on the council, and can date his death.
    2) He is apparently dead or believed to be dead.
    3) His apparent cause of death was murder because Obi Wan says so.
    4) The Kaminoan's believe he contacted them to begin the creation of the clone army.
    5) Palpatine is not Sifo Dyas because Syfo Dyas' face was known to the other Jedi and if there was a resemblance between the two, it would have been noticed by now. The reason he is not initially known as Sidious is because he hides his face.
    6) Palpatine is Sidous, I don't think anyone disputes this and because of the previous point, it is logical to say that Sidous is not Sifo Dyas.
    7) Dooko is Tyrannus because Sidious refers to him as so.
    8) Tyrannus recruited Jango Fett as the clone model.
    9) Qui-Gon is not Sifo Dias because both men were recognized by the jedi council and why would a jedi need an alias unless they were in hiding?

    I am hesitant to refer to timing references as fact because there is no precision in those references. The magic number of ten years is referred to several times, but I am sure that not every reference is to be taken literally. Anakin says it's been ten years since he saw Padme, which officially dates Episode 1. Obi-Wan says that Sifo Dyas died ten years ago as well, but there is no way to put an exact time in reference to the events in Episode 1. Also there is the fact that Kamino is on the outer rim and ten years from those events taken from a Coruscant point of view is not the same time frame given the distance from Kamino to Coruscant. One response said that Kenobi says that Sifo-Dyas was dead by the time that the Clone army was allegedly supposed to have been ordered. I don't remember the exact wording that Obi-Wan used, but there is room for error,given the time and space between the two places.

    So, was he a good intentioned Jedi who foresaw the rise of the separatists and sought to preserve the Republic?
    Was he secretly a Sith who originated the rise of the Empire?
    Was he in cahoots with Dooko or Palpatine?
    Does anything in the rumor-mill point to a further explanation of him in Episode III, or will he be a loose end that we are left to debate for years to come?

    The best and probably most logical conclusion is that Dooko, as Tyrannus, killed Sifo Dyas and used his name on Kamino to order the Clone army, while recruiting Jango as the clone model.

    Of course, there are many other possibilites that could be used in Episode III, but just based on what we actually know, that is the best conclusion.

    It can be argued that Sifo Dyas originally contacted the Kaminoan's (in secret) to begin the creation of the clone army as a good intentioned Jedi who foresaw the rise of the separatists and sought to preserve the Republic, then was killed by Dooko who took over the operation and hired Jango, but that is stretching things a bit I think.

    I also read where someone thought that Palpatine may try to use Sifo Dyas' name to link the Jedi to the creation of the clone army and blame the Jedi for the clone wars, but that doesn't really make sense because why would he blame the Jedi for creating it, then use it himself? He would be better to blame them for the separatist movement if anything.

    does anyone dispute those facts or have other viable, logical suggestions?
     
  12. EricZ

    EricZ Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2002
    I think its Dooku b/c Sidious usually doesn't do any thing to draw attention to himself and Fett said he was hired by Dooku so I would assume he did all of that.
     
  13. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Well I have seen Attack of the Clones at my local multiplex for the final time today, and I am convinced that it's Dooku who placed the Clone Order.

    Jango fett says as much. "I was hired by a man called Tyrannus."

    Dooku was told by Palpatine to erase Kamino from the jedi Archive, he then went to Kamino posing as Sifo-Dyas, so that's whose signature would be on the forms (I assume you have to sign forms, to get Clones made) Making it look like the Jedi had set everthing up with the Clones. He then recruited Jango Fett, using his name as Tyrannus, why didn't he keep calling himself Sifo-Dyas, I wonder? Did Jango know he was using two differant identities? Whatever, it was VERY convinient for Palpy and Dooku that Mace killed Jango Fett, wasn't it? ;)

    Not that I think Mace is a villain, or anything :D Anyway, it's perfectly clear to me, that Dooku ordered the Clones and posed as Sifo-Dyas :)
     
  14. OBI-GYN_Kenobi

    OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    I just saw AOTC Friday with my kids & Saturday with Mrs Obi-Gyn at the cheap 2nd run theatre.

    I made sure I watched VERY carefully for the little things like the Jedi's facial expressions during the Sifa-Dios discussion with Obi-Wan, & the exact words used in the discussion with Lama Su & Obi-Wan (during which, might I add, OWK leaves a trail about 10 feet wide saying "I haven't got a clue what you're talking about").

    So, here we go:

    Obi-Wan says to Lama Su, "Master Sifa-Dios (yes Sifa, not Sifo is how they say it) was killed ALMOST (or nearly) 10 years ago."

    Interestingly too that OWK says to Mace & Yoda "I was UNDER THE IMPRESSION that Master Sifa-Dios was killed..."

    Obviously, no body found or funeral......

    The look Yoda & Mace give each other at the mention of the name Sifa-Dios, to me clearly points to there being more there than we've been given.

    I see 2 seperate questions here, not one big theory......

    First, who was Sifa-Dios?
    1. A Jedi Master who died 10 years ago, nothing more.
    2. A fallen Jedi who went to the Dark Side & ordered the clones.
    3. A Jedi who took it upon himself to order the clones under some sort of 'prophetic' leading.
    I tend to think it's #1 myself.

    Next question, who ordered the clones in his name?

    Here's the choices I've seen put forth, in my order of most to least likely:

    1. Count Dukoo, to cover his tracks.
    2. Darth Maul, as a fallen Jedi (Sifa-Dios) gone to the dark side.
    3. Darth Sideous, who is not Palpatine, but a fallen Jedi named Sifa-Dios.
    4. Palpatine, who is Darth Sideous, formerly Jedi Master Sifa-Dios, & has somehow 'shrouded' his appearance (see how silly this is getting?).
    5. Qui-Gon Jin who is also known as Sifa-Dios (which makes no sense as Obi-Wan would've known that).
    6. Sifa-Dios himself, who really wasn't dead when he was supposed to be.

    Personally, I still think #1, but here's an interesting point, which perhaps belongs elsewhere:

    Dooku supposedly seems the obvious candidate to have erased Kamino from the Archives at or around the time the clones were ordered, correct?

    But, was Dooku still a Jedi 10 years before AOTC?

    If that happened 10 years ago, Obi-Wan Kenobi would've been in & out, all around the Jedi temple for many years as Qui-Gon's padawan learner, yet, Dooku says he has never met Obi-Wan before & "Qui-Gon spoke so highly of you."

    Huh?
    That means Dooku had to have been out of the Jedi Order more than 10 years as he had never met Obi-Wan. Yet he still had contact with Qui-Gon after that.......

    Also, Yoda states in PM "Two (sith) there always are, no more, no less." at the time Darth Maul is killed.

    So, if Dukoo had erased the Archive of Kamino, he must've done it way earlier than 10 years ago (or he'd have met Obi-Wan). So, does that mean there were 3 Sith at the same time?

    Maybe Dooku got someone else to erase Kamino?
    Like the guy he talked to after he left the Order, Qui-Gon Jin? Remember, being asked to remove a planet by a former mentor, who, even 10 years later is highly thought of by the Jedi Council, doesn't mean you've become evil......

    Problem there is Qui-Gon died at the same time as Darth Maul, so if Dooku had turned to the dark side & used Qui-Gon, we're back at 3 Sith operating at the same time.....

    I haven't got a clue.

    Maybe Mace Windu DID erase the Kamino Archive.... :)

     
  15. KosmicKnine

    KosmicKnine Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 31, 2002
    Obi-Wan says to Lama Su, "Master Sifa-Dios (yes Sifa, not Sifo is how they say it) was killed ALMOST (or nearly) 10 years ago."

    No matter how it sounded that they were pronouncing the name, all sources containing that Jedi's name at the official site, as well was the script contained within the book The Art of Star Wars Episode II Attack of the Clones, spell the name Sifo-Dyas.

    The clone army was apparently commissioned by a Jedi, Sifo-Dyas, a decade previous to their introduction on the battlefield.

    Fulfilling an order apparently commissioned by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, the Kaminoans used a bounty hunter named Jango Fett as the template for their human army.

    Commissioned by an enigmatic Jedi Master named Sifo-Dyas, Lama Su developed an impressive clone army of thousands of troops.

    These are quotes from some of the pages of the official site's databank containing the name Sifo-Dyas. The links will take you to the direct page the quote is found on so you can see it for yourself.

    It's Sifo-Dyas.
     
  16. Kylle

    Kylle Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Hey everybody. I think, Sidious was Dyas. It is for me the most obvious. SW AOTC - The universe says that Tyranus hired Jango as a model for the clones (as it is also said in the movie) But I think, that Sidious has made the order, and then sent Dooku to erase the archive map and also to recruit Jango.
     
  17. JediAl

    JediAl Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2002
    I think Sidious is Sifo-Dyas. The similarity in the names arouses suspicion.
     
  18. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Nice OBI-GYN_Kenobi :)

    Cheers,
    Shinjo!
     
  19. OBI-GYN_Kenobi

    OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    >>>.It's Sifo-Dyas.

    Yeah, I know.
    I just found it odd that everyone says "Sifa" that's all.

    The Dyas part, I see that usually spelled Dios.

    But you got the facts.....

     
  20. Darth Kruel

    Darth Kruel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2000
    I doubt if Sifo-Dyas is Sidious. The Prime Minister of Kamino asked Obi-1 if Master Sifo-Dyas was still a leading member of the JC, which implies that he was once on the Jedi Council along with Mace and Yoda. Obi-1 then says Master Sifo-Dyas was killed ten years prior. Naturally people begin to identify Sifo-Dyas with Qui-Gon Jinn, but even though QGJ was killed ten years prior just like Sifo-Dyas, QGJ wasn't a leading member on the Jedi Council. So, who is Sifo-Dyas? Let's explore the Dooku theory. We know that Dooku is a Sith called Tyranus, and that accoring to Jango Fett Tyranus was the person who hired him for the clone job, not Sifo-Dyas.

    The Jedi have no idea that a clone army was being created, or that Master Sifo-Dyas had any connections with this clone army. So, with Dooku leaving the order, and only a Jedi having access to those files in which the planet Kamino's files were erased, I honestly think that Dooku somehow, someway, either had Sifo-Dyas killed, or killed him himself. Then used his name to frame him for the use of the clone army and erased those files.

     
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Sifo-Dyas (Cif-O-Die-As) sounds nothing like Sidious (Cid-E-Us).
     
  22. Darth Kruel

    Darth Kruel Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2000
    Darth Sinister, I second that opinion. [face_plain]
     
  23. OBI-GYN_Kenobi

    OBI-GYN_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    And Darth Sinister sounds nothing like Darth Senator........

    You forget that the originally scripted name was Sido-Dios (or Dyas), some coincidence, no?

    And, I came to these conclusions alone, prior to coming here:

    1. Who the heck is Sifa-Dyas?

    2. It sure sounds similar to Sideous.

    In the least, GL wants people speculating on this kind of thing for the next 3 years......
     
  24. pigskanfly2001

    pigskanfly2001 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2002
    i thought it was made painfully more obvious in episode II that siddy and palpy were one and the same, but there is still a very slim chance that a plot twist (which Lucas loves) will be thrown in, despite the fact that it would screw up all the buildup.
     
  25. pigskanfly2001

    pigskanfly2001 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 15, 2002
    the dooku theory also works because we know that he and sidious are in the same league
     
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