****Official SIFO-DYAS Discussion thread****

Lars Muul,

That is a good point you made about Qui-Gon. I didn't overlook it in AOTC, I just forgot to post it. Thanks for reminding me. Nothing is a hundred percent yet, because anything could happen. I still believe Qui-Gon was the one who portrayed him, but if he wasn't, I agree with you on Palpatine/Sidious.

Something's kind of been bugging me a little bit ever since I began my research. Does anyone know wether or not it has been officially confirmed by George Lucas that Darth Sidious is also Palpatine, or have we all (myself included) just assumed that. All the evidence seems to point that Darth Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same, but you never know. Could that be the big twist in Episode III? Sidious is someone else entirely? Anyway I've been thinking, what if they were two seperate individuals. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but the names "Sifo-Dyas" and "Sidious" sound very much alike. It's possible that the real Sifo-Dyas, thought to be dead, could actually be Darth Sidious. Also, think about the time Sifo-Dyas died and around the time Sidious emerged. They happened pretty close together if you know what I mean. Well, I know it sounds a bit crazy, but who knows? Just another theory to research on. For now, I'd have to say I'm sticking with Qui-Gon, but anything could change.

 

Lars Muul,

That is a good point you made about Qui-Gon. I didn't overlook it in AOTC, I just forgot to post it. Thanks for reminding me. Nothing is a hundred percent yet, because anything could happen. I still believe Qui-Gon was the one who portrayed him, but if he wasn't, I agree with you on Palpatine/Sidious.

Something's kind of been bugging me a little bit ever since I began my research. Does anyone know wether or not it has been officially confirmed by George Lucas that Darth Sidious is also Palpatine, or have we all (myself included) just assumed that. All the evidence seems to point that Darth Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same, but you never know. Could that be the big twist in Episode III? Sidious is someone else entirely? Anyway I've been thinking, what if they were two seperate individuals. I'm sure this has been brought up before, but the names "Sifo-Dyas" and "Sidious" sound very much alike. It's possible that the real Sifo-Dyas, thought to be dead, could actually be Darth Sidious. Also, think about the time Sifo-Dyas died and around the time Sidious emerged. They happened pretty close together if you know what I mean. Well, I know it sounds a bit crazy, but who knows? Just another theory to research on. For now, I'd have to say I'm sticking with Qui-Gon, but anything could change.

 

Actually, I've never thought about that before, but 99% likely, Sidious and Palpatine are the same guy. Sifo-Dyas was probably some real jedi that died in battle. Palpatine took the jedi's identity and used it to order the clones. Tyranus then hired Jango as the template for the clones as well as the assassin to kill Amidala.

What do the jedi know?

1) Someone used Sifo-Dyas's identity and ordered a clone army.

2) Tyrannus hired Jango for the clone army.

3) Count Dooku hired Jango to kill Amidala.

What does the audience know?

1) Tyrannus and Dooku are the same guy.

2) Tyrannus/Dooku hired Jango for the clone army and the assasination of Amidala.

 

Sorry I posted the same message two times! It was an accident!

 

"Sifo-Dyas" is a Code word along the likes of "The Old Folks Home"... It means something of significants to senior council members, its a warning a challenge....

 

That´s an interesting thought, LottDodd!

PDZSY: That´s alright I agree that nothing is for sure yet. We´ll have to wait two and a half years and see

 

I think that Sifo-Dyas is Qui-gon, because, if you watch Episode II with the comminatry on and go to the scene were Yoda is meditaing, Lucas says that in Episode III they will be able to contact the dead, so mabe Qui-gon is trying to tell Yoda abot the clones MABE????

 

This thread needs a boost.

 

I wish I had found this thread months ago.

Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi. He left the order (after secretly erasing some important files on his way out) and became Count Dooku. He publicly began a movement against the Republic.
Of course we know this was all part of the plan he had with Sidious. To start a war. Well, they needed two armies & Sidious couldnt order his himself. Hes not supposed to want an army. And I dont care if he called himself Bob or Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, he's the supreme chancellor. I dont think he would risk it. Heck, why bother? He has a new partner who really IS a Jedi. Tell him to place the order!
"But, hey... um... use your old 'good guy' name, k?"

Bada bing, bada bang, bada boom.
And this would work so well in Episode 3.


To introduce another Jedi character into the story just to say he's dead, doesnt seem right to me. It sounds like a weak story. A plot twist with someone we already know seems way cooler.

 

"He left the order (after secretly erasing some important files on his way out) and became Count Dooku."

Except everyone knows count dooku as count dooku. He didnt TAKE ON the name count dooku. That IS his name. He TOOK ON the name Darth Tyrannus.

Otherwise, Yoda, who knew him, would still call him Sifo. Urma!

Plus, Dooku was never a member of the council, otherwise Obi would know him.

 

Sifo-Dyas is my second favorite discussion to have, right underneath the secret of the disappearing jedi. With that I join the OFFICIAL Sifo Discussion.




Below is a thread I started over at Ep3spoilers (dont worry, it contains no spoilers.). This theory isnt entirely new, but it does have some new twists to it. This theory works INCREDIBLY well on many levels, but it has some major kinks in it too. There seems to be some truth to it though, so maybe with you guys' help, we can work out the kinks.

If nothing else, it is a step in a different direction. It may give you some ideas to apply to a different theory.





Here goes:


---------------
Sifo-Dyas, a leading member of the jedi council. The jedi these days are getting arogant, "even the older more experienced ones." Only a few jedi are allowed to peek into the Sith documents in the libarary. (Boo! Hiss! EU! EU!) Sifo, peers into these documents and becomes slightly corrupted by them with time, just like Dooku did before he went fully sith. (again EU.)

Sifo fakes his death, and declares himself Sith, taking up the guise of Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious is always in the shadows. Remember no jedi, or any of us for that matter has ever seen Sidious' face, except for in ROTJ. No one to recognize him. (Not even YOU!)


Mega-Point #1:
The last appearance of Sifo, corresponds almost exactly with the first appearance of Sidious.

However, someone would surely recognize his padawan, whom he has also corrupted. Now that we know Eeth Koth, a member of Maul's race, we know that the markings on Maul's face were no more than tattoos. Tattoos to disguise himself from any jedi who might recognize him as the padawan of Sifo. Furthermore, Only QuiGon and ObiWan had ever seen Maul. Obi Wan was not familiar with Sifo at all. They had never crossed paths, so we can assume that QuiGon never had either. Adding to the fact why no one recognized Maul.


FurthermoreThe darkside can be sensed in someone. Yoda to Dooku, "The darkside I sense in you...". Yet, Sidious goes undetected. Why? Apparantly, he has developed a very special trick to conceal himself from the jedi. It is an ability all his own. He did not teach this trick to Dooku, for the darkside was sensed in him. Vader also did not know this trick; he was easily sensed by Obi and Luke.

Only Sid can do it. So, is it really reasonable to say that the Sith had survived for 1000 years without detection. Not really. And even if they did, that these guys who are supposed to be"impatient", "overconfident" and "power hungry" didnt make a move to take over in all that time doesnt make sense either.

Its more reasonable to assume that the Sith had just emerged at the time Mace said, "I do not beleive the Sith could have returned without us knowing."

MegaPoint #2:
Sid is the only one who can mask himself. Yet, the sith were supposed to have existed for 1000 years without detection and without even trying to make a move.

MegaPoint#3:
Sifo's name creates extreme suspicion on the faces of Yoda and Mace. They knew something wasnt quite right with that guy.

Also, Sifo-Dyas' name was supposed to be Sido-Dyas, and still is on the OS, I believe. But that was too obvious. Since its not in the movie, its EU, and thus Not exactly a megapoint, but at least something to take into consideration, you know?

Ep 1 commentary, "The Sith Knights were started by a fallen jedi, but the real trick was that they were patient, they trained...". He never mentions 1000 years or any timeframe. Or any names. How long is Darth Maul's "At last" in "At last we will reveal ourselves to the jedi?" It could have been 10 or 20 years.






Anyway, the one thing that throws a wrench into that is that Palp would have to not = Sidious for it to work.

------------

DarthWeenie...well, I love your theory about Sidious actually being Sifo-Dyas, and about how he faked his own death and went into hiding...i like it for the simple fact that it means that ALL Sith originate from the Jedi...and that is how the p

 

Otherwise, Yoda, who knew him, would still call him Sifo.

Oh, right. Like how everyone still called Vader by his given name. And who is BEN anyway? Those guys were the oldest of friends and "old man" called him VADER, not Anakin.
Name change is par for the course in Star Wars. Its symbolic.

Plus, Dooku was never a member of the council

And "Sifo-Dyas" was? For sure? When do we hear that confirmed? We hear that someone claiming to be Sifo-Dyas claimed to be on the Jedi council, from Lama Su the Kaminoan. Now, considering what the Kaminoans seem to know, I dont think we can call them a knowledgeable source of info. They took an order for an army of the republic, and the Jedi dont even know about it. The lines of communication dont seem very open. It all just depends on "manners & how big your pocketbook is".
Obi-Wan isnt sure who did what when, and nobody really says anything concrete except Mace; "we didnt do it."

DarthWeenie- I think you have a great possible theory. If Star wars was a series of novels, we could get that story. But I dont see it all playing out in Episode 3. Its way to thick.
"All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one."
A name change is so simple. Its so easy.
Its so Star Wars.
Some long drawn out monologue about this guy who used to train that guy who turned bad who then killed this other guy who did this thing that blah blah blah, blahablah b.....
Its just too much for E3. Theres still the whole "Anakin goes bad" thing. Thats going to be the focus and its going to take a LOT of screen time. Sifo-Dyas will be explained in one brief convo that will be almost disapointing for most.
Reminds me of "....Leia is my sister!" or, "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader". It was so easy.
That whole Luke/Leia/Han thing was huge & they wrapped it up in seconds. It was so simple, it was kind of a bummer.

Anyhoo I know its a paper thin theory, but still I havent seen anything to convince me that its untrue. I guess we'll all see in 2005.

Crikey, thats a a long time.

 

Otherwise, Yoda, who knew him, would still call him Sifo.

Oh, right. Like how everyone still called Vader by his given name. And who is BEN anyway? Those guys were the oldest of friends and "old man" called him VADER, not Anakin.
Name change is par for the course in Star Wars. Its symbolic.

Plus, Dooku was never a member of the council

And "Sifo-Dyas" was? For sure? When do we hear that confirmed? We hear that someone claiming to be Sifo-Dyas claimed to be on the Jedi council, from Lama Su the Kaminoan. Now, considering what the Kaminoans seem to know, I dont think we can call them a knowledgeable source of info. They took an order for an army of the republic, and the republic doesnt even know about it. The lines of communication dont seem very open. It all just depends on "manners & how big your pocketbook is".
Obi-Wan isnt sure who did what when, and nobody really says anything concrete except Mace; "we didnt do it."

DarthWeenie- I think you have a great possible theory. If Star wars was a series of novels, we could get that story. But I dont see it all playing out in Episode 3. Its way to thick.
"All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one."
A name change is so simple. Its so easy.
Its so Star Wars.
Some long drawn out monologue about this guy who used to train that guy who turned bad who then killed this other guy who did this thing that blah blah blah, blahablah b.....
Its just too much for E3. Theres still the whole "Anakin goes bad" thing. Thats going to be the focus and its going to take a LOT of screen time. Sifo-Dyas will be explained in one brief convo that will be almost disapointing for most.
Reminds me of "....Leia is my sister!" or, "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader". It was so easy. A huge mystery answered with a simple "he is". Heck, that whole Luke/Leia/Han thing was huge too, & they wrapped that up in seconds. It was so simple, it was kind of a bummer.
E3 has to tie up so much, I dont think the Sifo-Dyas mystery will take too long.

Anyhoo I know its a paper thin theory, but still I havent seen anything to convince me that its untrue. I guess we'll all see in 2005.

Crikey, thats a a long time.

 

What if Sifo-Dyas was the one to train Palpy/Sidious?

'Sidious' would be a pay on 'Sifo-Dyas' in homage to him.

 

Well, in the original drafts of AOTC, Sifo-Dyas was actually "Sido-Dyas".

 

and Luke Skywalker was originally Luke Starkiller, and Lando had a clone, and the Ewoks were going to be Wookies.

 

It makes sense to me that there's a link between Sifo-Dyas and Sidious. The names are just too similar to be "coincidence." Lucas may be a clunky director, but he isn't so bereft of imagination to give two different characters similar-sounding names BY ACCIDENT.

So Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi Master and Sidious is a Sith Lord. This would lead us to one of a pair of conclusions:

1. Sidious is a an evil foil, or parallel, to Sifo-Dyas.
2. Sifo-Dyas = Sidious

If it's Option #1, then Sifo-Dyas died, by accident or murder, about 10 years ago and Sidious has used the Jedi's good name to order the clones. A good cover up that could ultimately make the Jedis scapegoats, but all too coincidental, don't you think? If you assume, as I do, that there is a link to the names, then what was Darth Sidious called BEFORE Sifo-Dyas died? Was he simply Darth X, and then adopted the name Sifo-Dyas "for fun" after the Jedi Master died?

It's ludicrous to think that Sifo-Dyas and Sidious existed contemporaneously without any connection. The coincidence is simply too great in the Star Wars universe Lucas has created.

Which leads us to Option #2, that Sidious = Sifo-Dyas. After AotC was released, I was certain that Sifo-Dyas was simply a minor Jedi Master who died "almost 10 years" ago -- which is about the time of The Phantom Menace. No problem, his identity is stolen by the bad guys to conduct their dastardly plot, and if they get found out -- it's the Jedis who will take the fall. Brilliant.

But it just doesn't add up for me anymore. Sifo-Dyas and Sidious must be connected at some deeper level, and I believe it's because they are the same character.

Lucas has shown us that good Jedi sometimes go bad. We know it to be true with Anakin, and we've seen it with Dooku. Is it so hard to believe that all this turmoil in the galaxy is related to the first master to fall to the Dark Side? Of course not.

So what if Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master who faked his death, in order to slip away to the Dark Side and hatch a masterful plot to bring down the Jedi? He would know that the power of the Jedi was in decline, that there was a prophecy of one who would bring balance to the Force, and that he could bring the whole galaxy to its knees through lies and deception?

If Sidious = Sifo-Dyas, then the major hurdle is getting over the Sidious = Palpatine belief. I'll admit it -- I used to flamed folks who doubted this connection. How could they have been so foolish? Didn't they see how Lucas manipulated the camera to get us to know -- wink wink, nudge nudge -- that the humble senator from Naboo was the Master of Evil.

Well, I'll admit my mea culpa. I'm still now sure I believe this new theory, but at least I have a shadow of a doubt about the Palpatine = Sidious connection.

On the other hand, I don't believe Palpatine is a clone of Sidious/Sifo-Dyas. I mean, come on -- wouldn't the Jedi Council recognize him as their dead colleague? A clone is a clone -- an exact replica, as we saw in AotC: the clones resemble their donors, so Palpatine, if he were a clone, would have to look like Sifo-Dyas/Sidious. If that were the case, the jig would be up.

So perhaps Lucas's "twist" is the fact that Palpatine is truly what he appears to be, and that Sidious is a dark force lurking in the shadows, manipulating all the pieces -- Dooku, the Jedi, the Senate, even Palpatine -- to his evil ends.

It all works, except for one single scene in AotC. The scene where Palpatine and Anakin are along, and Palpy is congratulating Ani on his first mission. Lucas visually links these two characters to Emperor/Vader, so it's hard to mistake Palpy as the "bad guy." But it makes for good speculation, and I can't believe Lucas would make it so simple that Sidious had a Sith name so closely linked to a Jedi Master name without there being some greater connection.

 

So Sifo-Dyas is a Jedi Master and Sidious is a Sith Lord. This would lead us to one of a pair of conclusions:
1. Sidious is a an evil foil, or parallel, to Sifo-Dyas.
2. Sifo-Dyas = Sidious

Or option 3. They are 2 different people. One, a Jedi Master. The other, a Sith Lord.

I can't believe Lucas would make it so simple that Sidious had a Sith name so closely linked to a Jedi Master name without there being some greater connection.

I dont know what to say..... I can.
And whether just by name, or association, or whatever, - any way you look at it;
they are connected.
So, we agree! ... kinda.....

Lucas /irrelevant/ isn't so bereft of imagination to give two different characters similar-sounding names BY ACCIDENT.

I dont think thats it at all.
I also dont think name similarity is enough to link 2 people as one, considering no other possibilities because the two names rhyme.

It's ludicrous to think that Sifo-Dyas and Sidious existed contemporaneously without any connection. The coincidence is simply too great in the Star Wars universe Lucas has created.

Not much room for a response there.
I disagree.



I'm assuming most agree that it was Darth Sidious/Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Paplatine and/or Count Dooku/Darth Tyrannus who was responsible for the order. With Jango naming his recruiter and everything coming together with that final Sith Meeting in AOTC, we know its all part of the plan. And both men are involved.
I just think Dooku makes more sense as Sifo-Dyas. I've watched the movie with this fully in mind and it seems to fit so well. Right down to the way the other Jedi say "Dooku" when they're talking to his face. Its like they're spitting it out. Like they dont like calling him that.
It just seems right to me.

question;
Do you think the Kaminoans would take an order from the Supreme Chancellor & never realize who he was? I know he has that tricky hood, but the order is a pretty big deal and I think the only people we've seen with him in person know who he really is.

Ok, That leads me along a possible argument. Maybe he placed the order via hologram wearing the hood, claiming to be on the council.
So, why does Obi-Wan actually know of somebody (apparently a Jedi, not a confirmed council member) named Sifo-Dyas?
Cause he's a REAL GUY. He was Jedi. (where have I heard that before?... "... was once a Jedi".... )
And he couldnt possibly have been a Jedi (council member or not) and a Naboo senator at the same time.

So maybe Palpatine/Sidious "assumed his name after he died", (as some have suggested) right?
(Or even.... maybe he was another disillutioned Jedi like Dooku who placed the order & was then killed. - as others have suggested)

WHY?
Why would we be introduced to an important character only to find out he died?
I dont think we would. I know thats not much of an argument, but GL said its going to be explained in E3. IMO, "Yeah, he's dead." would SUCK. as an explanation.
So, IMO he still exists.

So, we're down to two guys, Dooku and Sidious.

I dont see how it could be Sidious. He couldnt have been in two places at once (Senator/Jedi). And besides, it seems a little risky to order an army himself that he isnt supposed to know about.
Dont you think?
Disquises, force tricks, whatever. Thats what stooges- I mean apprentices are for.

"Hey, new guy!! Go order me an army, pay for it & just tell em some Jedi will show up eventually."

 

bump

 

bump

 

This is a great discussion.

 

Yeah... this is something I'm constantly wondering about. Just one of the many issues brought up in the PT that will make me lose sleep.

 

"What if Sifo-Dyas was the one to train Palpy/Sidious?

'Sidious' would be a pay on 'Sifo-Dyas' in homage to him. "


Yes, we may be onto something new here. Heres what could have happened.

Remember, that Sifo-Dyas died over 10 years ago, according to AOTC. (Of course, he also died "almost" 10 years ago, too. But if the latter was the case, we would have seen him on the council in TPM. So its safe to say the former is true.)

So, 10 years ago is the events of TPM. Just before that, Sifo-Dyas died. Shortly thereafter, Sidious makes his first appearance. Coincidence?

(Let me spell it out for you if you dont get it. Sidi killed his master Sifo, as the Sith are known to do, then put his OWN plan into action.)

So, what that would have to mean is this:
Sifo was a leading member of the Jedi Council, who had a secret apprentice to the darkside, (Palpatine) whom, as part of Sifo's plan, had his apprentice entrenched in the political system to gain power on that front. Right? Right.

So, Sifo could have indeed ordered the clones. (1And planned to do the same thing with them that Sidious DID do.) Palpatine/Sidious offed him right after, then took his masters plan for himself. He used the same plan that his master was planning. With me?

Now, this could work on the level that the timeline could work out. Plus, as far as Sifo enrolling his apprentice in politics and the apprentice climbing the political ladder...

...we already have a precedent of the Sith Lord sending the Sith Apprentice to gain power on another front, while he gains power in his home front, then when both sides are sufficiently powerful, combining the two into one superpower. (Palpatine leading one government, Dooku leading another, then combining to create one awesome force, the empire.)

Sifo gained power in the Jedi ranks, while his apprentice gained power in the political ranks.




The part where this DOESNT work is, the clones wouldnt have been ordered without a decent host already lined up. And Jango was hired by Tyrannus.

Not Sidious. Not Maul. Not even Sifo himself.

So guess this theory doesnt work after all.

 

And like so many other theorys it also would not work very well on screen as a movie.
Fellow speculators- Try to stop thinking about everything that is possible, because that list goes on for a while. Try to focus on what would make a cool movie.
What plot twist could lucas throw out in E3 that wouldnt confuse all the average movie going fans?
I like my theory, but I dont seem to get much feedback. Its quite simple, which is why I'm so convinced its accurate.
I think Dooku and Sifo-Dyas are the same guy. I have posted my thoughts above (sorry about the double post )and would welcome any counter arguments.

 

Heres some feedback then.

I dont think thats simple at all. People would wonder why there was no mention of it in AOTC. At the very least, Yoda would have said "Sifo...", instead of ,"Count Dooku..." in the final battle. Or there would have been a slight mention of it when Yoda and Mace heard the name in the meditation chamber.

In any normal situation, youd be right in saying that the simpler the theory, the more probability of it being right. But look at TPM. Then look at AOTC.

The OT is very straightforward. The last 2 movies have shown us that a SW movie CAN be complex. AOTC in particular is not by any means a "simple" movie. The very mention of the name "Sifo-Dyas" in the movie should convince you of that.

Im not bashing, but you need to understand that with AOTC, a precedent is now set that a "simple answer" isnt a probability in SW movies anymore.