****Official SIFO-DYAS Discussion thread****

Lama Su says, "Sido Dyas is still a ranking member of the Jedi Council, is he not?" Or something to that effect. Then Obi-Wan says he died almost 10 years ago.

 

well, the cloners mention he was on the Jedi Council, but Yoda and Mace don't confirm it.

I think it is likely that Sifo Dyas was indeed Palpatine. In fact, it may have been him that erased Kamino from the Jedi Library. It'd explain alot really, like where Palpatine got some of his training, his knowledge of the Jedi, etc. The big question is why noone recognizes him.

 

DeltaJedi said:

"FACT #2: Palpatine/Sidious is NOT Sifo-Dyas.
Despite the seeming similarity between the name 'Sidious' and 'Sifo-Dyas' it would've taken one of the more major tricks in the dark-side's bag in order to pull such a forgery off. For one, the order of the clones came over 10 years ago, when Palpatine was a Senator, 'Sidious' was training Darth Maul, and Sifo-Dyas was sitting on the Jedi Council."

DJ, while that is an admirable line of reasoning, it simply is not a fact. As clear as your conclusion may seem, it is not stated in the film, and as such cannot be taken as factual. I do not mean to be adversarial; only logical. Further, if Palpatine can cloak his dark side powers from the Council, surely he could disguise himself as a Jedi?

 

Sifo-Dyos is not Qui-Gon. Obi-1 seems to know Qui-Gon and this Sifo-Dyas as two different people.

It's not Palpatine because he was never on the Jedi Council. Count Dooku would know who this Sifo Dyas is too.

My conclusion is this: that Sifo Dyas is a character George Lucas placed in the middle of things. Dyas has never been seen by the audience, and will never be. But he once was a respected Jedi Master....

 

Thank you, Master Soma and Riggs Wolf. So S-D was on the council, eh? That may complicate things. And yet, since he died ALMOST ten years ago--in other words, AFTER the events of TPM--we would not necessarily have seen him in the Council chambers in the first film.

And Riggs, you make a good point about Palpatine's knowledge of the Jedi. His assessment of Anakin's greatness must derive from some familiarity with the Jedi arts.

All of this elaborate theorizing to absolve Palpatine from being Sidious is extremely baroque, in my opinion. It is utterly clear to me that they are one and the same, but I suppose that's a matter for another thread!

 

Darh Kruel, how do you reconcile the extraordinary similarity of the names, Sifo-Dyas and Sidious? Just coincidence?

 

Why did we think that Dooku/Tyrannous doesn't know about the clone army? The only time he refers to them is in the Geonosian war room where he says "Impossible. Where could the Republic have come up with an army so quickly?" and even that sounds sincerely hollow. Now Dooku is in league with Nute Gunray who knows of Sidious' existence. He's spoken to him personally many times in TPM. But they don't know that Palpatine = Sidious. Dooku can talk about the Republic paying for their treachery and his Master freely because they think he's on their side in a civil war.

Isn't the whole premise of AotC that Sidious creates a big enough crisis (ie: the Seperatist movement through his Apprentice) to bring the clone army which he's been cultivating for the last 10 years under his personal control? ?

My bet is that Dooku hooked up with Sidious while he was still a disillusioned Jedi Master, just after his headstrong ex-Apprentice Qui-Gon Jinn was killed in TPM. He loses faith in the Jedi and the Republic and goes a bit Dark Side. Sidious dispatches him to Kamino to commission the clone army. Dooku erases Kamino from the Jedi Archives, recruits Jango as the host on the moons of Bogdon(sp?) and (knowing that Sifa-Dyas is dead) assumes his identity for his contact with the Kaminoans.

 

heh, heres a cute word play...


SIFO-DYAS

si FO dyas

si dyas sidious

FO fake of

sifodyas si fake of dious

si(fakeof)dious

sifo-dyas is a fake of sidious

 

si(FOny [phony])dyas

si(phony)dias

 

DarthAttorney, your query answers itself, my friend! That is indeed Sidious' purpose: to create an embraglio huge enough to justify his expanded wartime powers; and at the same time, to create a vast army to enforce his (soon-to-be iron) will.

And I'm totally with you up until your last point. Why would Dooku take on the name of another Jedi Master, when he himself is one? Couldn't he simply tell the Kaminoans that he, Dooku, is a Jedi, and leave it at that? Why take on an assumed name?

 

We know for a fact that Dooku knows about the clone army, because according to Jango Fett, it was Tyrannous, aka Dooku, who contacted him about being the prototype for the clones. Now that I think about it, that makes Dooku the most likely candidate to be the one who pretended to be sifodyas. As he was a Jedi in the past, it was probably also him that erased Kamino. However, this also means he was a Sith BEFORE he left the order.

 

IMO, Dooku took on an assumed name (of a real Jedi Master) because Palpatine wants to use the Jedi as scapegoats when people start saying, "Hey how come we had this huge clone army just waiting to be deployed the instant the vote was taken?"


If Obi-Wan had been told that Dooku ordered the clones, how different would things have been? Dooku is leading the Separatists, he can't very well be ordering clonetroopers for the Republic can he?

 

"Dooku is leading the Separatists, he can't very well be ordering clonetroopers for the Republic can he?"

Gungan, that's a good point. But, was Dooku a separatist at the time the clones were ordered? That question is not adressed in the film .... Have we reached an impasse? Can no further knowldege be gleaned?

 

Dooku left the Jedi about ten years before AotC, and the clones were ordered about ten years before AotC.

"Whoever is behind this was not a Jedi." - or something like that

That line would have no impact if they could just call up Dooku and ask him if he ordered the clones, and why. Until the end, there doesn't seem to be any animosity between the Jedi and Dooku, so it's not like they couldn't talk to him if his name came up.

Also, I don't think it would go over well with Gunray and Poggle and the rest if word got out that their leader had ordered a clone army and forgotten to mention it to them.

 

Sifo-dyas is Boss Nass.

Wait, hear me out....

Nah, I got nothin.

 

Vortigern: I just wanted to check that was right before I started making assumptions on it!

Dooku doesn't want to come up looking bad because the Jedi still hold him in high esteem. He's a very honour-driven character, if he can save face and distance himself from a diabolical scheme you can bet he will.

---

"Count Dooku was a Jedi Master....murder and assassination just aren't in his character."
--- Master Mace Windu

---

Also, if the current theory flying around comes true and Palpatine pins the unlawful creation of a clone army on the Jedi, the fact that it was (seemingly) orchestrated by a member of the Jedi Council would hold alot more water in public debate than a rogue master who's run off to start a civil war, right?

Sidious wants as little to do with this plan as possible, he only appears once this time as opposed to 10-something last time because the stakes are far higher for him now and he has so much more to lose. He wants the Jedi to come out thinking that Dooku is the Sith Master.

 

"... if they could just call up Dooku and ask him if he ordered the clones, and why."

Well, Dooku is already aligned with the Separatists as of the opening crawl. He is an opponent of the Republic from frame one.

"I don't think it would go over well with Gunray and Poggle ... if word got out that their leader had ordered a clone army and forgotten to mention it to them."

GunganDin, Tyranus and Sidious are portrayed as playing the TF and the other guilds for fools. Dooku IS Tyranus, the same Tyranus who hired Fett as a clone prototype! So his expression of surprise at their clone army is false--a lie, as Yoda remarks upon in the penultimate scene.

 

Obi-Wan says in the movie that Syfo-Dyas was killed. This furthers the theory that Darth Sidious had this person killed so that he could use his identity to order the clone army from the Kaminoans.

 

"... f [Dooku] can save face and distance himself from a diabolical scheme you can bet he will."

Okay, DarthAttorney, I'll buy that. He's not revealing his Sith identity yet, so that jibes.



"... [T]he fact that it was (seemingly) orchestrated by a member of the Jedi Council would hold alot more water in public debate than a rogue master who's run off to start a civil war, right?"

Agreed. But why does it have to be Dooku in disguise? Why not Sidious?

"Sidious wants as little to do with this plan as possible ... he wants the Jedi to come out thinking that Dooku is the Sith Master."

This I do not agree with, necessarily. If Sidious is in disguise as another Jedi, his identity is secure. And why should Dooku get two secret identities, Tyranus AND Sifo-Dyas? That bit of villainy should be reserved for the main heavy, Sidious! Also, there is the matter of the names. Is their similarity mere coincidence?

 

Darth Tyranus does indeed know of the existence of the clone army. At the end of "Attack of the Clones," Tyranus tells Darth Sidious, "The war has started." Sidious then says, "Good. Everything is going as planned."

This makes it perfectly clear that Sidious and Tyranus are in league working toward the same goal. Dooku is playing the Trade Federation and the Commerce Guilds. He feigns ignorance of how the Jedi could raise an army so fast. Remember, he hired Jango Fett to be the source for the clones. Of course he knows the clone army exists!

 

ok, did dooku actually recruit jango to be the clone template? my understanding was that dooku recruited jango to assassinate amidala. i heard no mention of him recruiting jango for anything else. yes/no? i'll have to see it again...

 

Yes, Palpatine and Dooku are playing both sides against the other, and the only way for that to work is to not let the people who are being played realize it until it is too late.

If Dooku had ordered the clones for the Republic in his own name and then run off and formed the separatist movement, neither the Republic nor the Separatists would trust him and the plan would collapse. The Republic would refuse to use the clones, and the Separation movement would abandon Dooku.


I'm sure Gunray will eventually find out where the clones came from. What do you think his reaction would be if he found out they were ordered by the man who said it was impossible for the Republic to have an army ready so quickly?


Sidious and Tyranus's plan can only work if Palpatine and Dooku are fully trusted by their respective sides, and distrusted by the other side. Using Sifo-Dyas's name to order the clones protects Dooku from being discovered by the TF et al., and gives Palpatine a chance to raise questions about the Jedi's true intentions.

 

Palpatine=clone of Sidious(puppet)altered to be less independent than the original host,so that sidious can pull the strings

Sidious=True Palpatine=Future Emperor,also Sifo-dyas,remember,it would seem that there are alot of alias being used here,count dooku used the alais tyranus to recruit Jango Fett while Sidious used Sifo-Dyas to initiate the construction of the clone army,thus both sidious and dooku(no matter how surprised he acted,because he and sidious are playing both sides)knew about the clone army,because this was all planned in advance,hence sidious saying"everything is going as planned"

Also,it would seem as though dooku is also trying to play Sidious,when he tells obi-wan about sidious,and the fact that dooku tells yoda,I am the most powerfull jedi,even more powerfull than you(yoda),it would seem that Dooku has a hidden agenda to gain power,which will most likely lead to his death at the hands of sidious,or by his command at the hands of Anakin/Vader

 

GunganDin, I agree with everything you say there, but the same could be said if Sidious were in disguise, and not Dooku.

What it seems to come down to is that Sifo-Dyas is either Sidious, or Dooku, using a false name. Beyond that simple statement, it's a purely subjective exercise in imagination to form any solid conclusions.

But it sure is fun to speculate!

 

Yeah, I do think their names are coincidence actually. I read in the earlier drafts and spy reports that the original name was to be "Sido-Dyas" which leaves no room for contention that Sidious is ordering the clone order under the guise of a non-existant Jedi master.

However, by changing the name and making the Jedi Master in question real (but dead) it insists to me that GL doesn't want us to drae this conclusion. If he did, he would have left it the way it was and much more obvious

Like I'e said earlier, Sidious wants nothing to do with this plan. How would he come up with a plausible explanation for the Supreme Chancellor to sneak off-world and travel all the way beyond the outer rim? He simply would not have time and he's learnt his leasson about dealing with his lackey's via holo-comm.

Dooku/Tyrannous has hired Jango to be his permanent handy man, IMHO. He's the host for the Republic clones, he's the guy who tries to kill Amidala for Sidious and the Trade Fed, he's the guy who covers Dooku's butt when Obi Wan starts asking questions. Jango is loyal to Dooku wholeheartedly, he stays by his side during the arena battle. If th clones were commissioned 10yrs earlier by Dooku, one can assume that Dooku and Jango have had a lasting business relationship since then.