****Official SIFO-DYAS Discussion thread****

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Missninfan, May 18, 2002.

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  1. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    At the very least, Yoda would have said "Sifo...", instead of ,"Count Dooku..." in the final battle.

    not neccessarily. remember Obi-Wan vs... that one guy?
    "Only a master of evil DARTH."

    Or there would have been a slight mention of it when Yoda and Mace heard the name in the meditation chamber.

    The concerned look was enough for me. IMO, they just put the pieces together. (Actually, It looked alot like Obi-Wans face when he was lying to Luke about how his father died.)
    Also, they had a great opportunity to confirm or deny his death to Obi-Wan, but they didnt. They said NOTHING in regards to Sifo-Dyas being alive or dead, they only deny involvement in the order. Why leave it hanging like that?

    As for the simplicity of the theory itself;
    Think back to 1980. "I am your father" seemed downright baffling. "Thats not possible!"- were my thoughts exactly.(ok i was only 6, but you know what I mean.) That just seemed CRAZY. A whole movie (ANH)had gone by without any mention of this! (like Sifo in TPM) Then we get some random info in ESB (like the Sifo stuff in AOTC) that made us all sit around and wonder for several years. Then ROTJ comes out & it all makes perfect sense "from a certain point of view".
    Like E3 will.

    Im not bashing, but you need to understand that with AOTC, a precedent is now set that a "simple answer" isnt a probability in SW movies anymore.

    I'm not offended, and thank you for clarifying. I enjoy the debate.
    In response- I disagree. IMO, AOTC does not set a precedent that the SW movies wont have simple answers. I think it gave us some information that seems confusing now, but will all seem very obvious later when it is explained with a simple answer.
    Most moviegoers wont think this deeply about it & I think GL will give us an explanation we can grasp.
    Something we've seen before.

    Now, I am not bashing either, but do you have any other argumeant besides "they would have called him Sifo."- ?

    Im serious. That's not much. Luke called Obi-Wan, Ben. Ben called Anakin Vader. Owen actually spoke about Ben & then said Obi-Wan was DEAD.
    "I dont think he exists anymore. He died around the same time as your father."
    Now THAT is some interesting dialogue. He KNOWS ben is alive, but says "Obi-Wan" is dead.


    If you change your name- people call you by your new name.

  2. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    from way back when...
    Why has it been advanced by some that SD was on the Jedi Council? Is this a line of dialogue I missed in my three viewings of Ep.II??
    The Kaminoan Lama Su asks Obi-Wan - "He is still a leading memeber of the Jedi Council, is he not?"
    To which Obi-Wan responds "MSD was killed almost 10 years ago."

    strangely though, he doesnt really answer the question does he?
    Then Obi mentions SD to Mace. Mace states "No. Whoever placed that order did have the authorization of the Jedi Council."
    Again- not very conclusive.

    Kinda makes me wonder if he was on the council or not. which leads me to wonder how much Obi-Wan knew about Sifo-Dyas.
    Remember- He had never met Dooku. His own Masters master. Its not like all the Jedi know each other.

    patnort1, I saw your post & locked thread.
    bump.
    No, you are not the only one who believes Sifo-Dyas is Count Dooku.

    I totally agree with you. I was convinced by my 4th theater viewing.
  3. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    How about this theory:

    Mace Windu as we know him is not Mace Windu. He is actually the clawdite(changeling) Sifo-Dyas!
    Some time before TPM, Sifo-Dyas came in contact with Darth Sidious and offered his services from within the Jedi order. Mace Windu discovered what he was doing, but before he could tell anyone, Sifo-Dyas killed him. Then he copied Mace and told Yoda that he had been forced to kill Sifo-Dyas because he had discovered that something suspicious was going on.
    Or he just told the council that Sifo had died in some other way, during a mission.
    Then, shortly after TPM, when "Mace" was on a mission, he stopped by at Kamino and ordered the clone army in his normal guise, at the request of Darth Sidious.
    Little did he know that Count Dooku was also involved with the Sith Lord! He just assumed that Sidious himself took care of getting a template for the clones, just as Dooku thought that Sidious ordered the creation of the army. Which is why we don´t see any signs of plotting between Mace and Dooku in AOTC.

    To those of you who will say "Mace is NOT a traitor!": I didn´t say so either. I said he was killed before the films even took place.
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
  5. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Strange.... This thread was on page 14 even though I posted the above! :confused:
  6. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    That sometimes happens late at night. It's some sort of bug.
  7. Matuck Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    I think the thought that Dooku used a pawn is the way to go. If we look at the Expanded Universe (just for an idea not that it's canon) the DH comix that have been coming out talk about Jedi turning to the confederacy because they, too, believe the Republic has lost it's way. Qui-Gon makes similiar mention of it.

    Who's to say that Dooku didn't find the willing Jedi S-D to Kamino and have him order the Army.

    It's too dangerous for Dooku to do it. Sidious has his own work.

    Sifo was a patsy.

    Can it be that simple? I think so.

    Matuck
  8. Nightwalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    Yes finally someone agrees that it could be qui-gon.

    my opinion its too easy if its dooku or sidious.

    2nd people say why would he want an army there is no reason? Who said it there had to be a reason qui-gon and dooku knew the corruptions of the senate,soon as the republic was born they should of created an army but didnt.You build an army for defence just like dictators around the world.

    People seem to forget that dooku and qui-gon has a connection.
    They build an army for the good but did it behind the senates back and jedi's coz they both knew that they wouldnt allow it.
    Dooku left the order coz it didnt work he either did it for the good or was joined with sidious already and used qui-gon as a pawn.

    ''Qui-gon jinn would never join you''
    '' Dont be so sure,he was once my apprentice as you were once his''

    Qui-gon seems to be the rebel type jedi, like not listening to the council about not training anakin.
  9. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    (psssst. hey... over here.... )












    ITS DOOKU!!!!!! :D
  10. sdj Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 4
    But what if Sidious was actually trained by the Jedi? He was Sifo-Dyas and pretended to be killed just after he went to the darkside.

    Now what about Palpatine you ask. Well what if he somehow created the identity of Palpatine as well. What if Palpatine were someone else whose identity he hijacked? I'm not saying that he and Sid are two different people. I don't buy into that theory....but what if the original Palpatine were someone else?

    It's not like we know anything about Palpatines history prior to TPM. I don't think it's a coincidence that Sifo died around the time of TPM.
  11. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    But what if Sidious was actually trained by the Jedi? He was Sifo-Dyas and pretended to be killed just after he went to the darkside.

    But we know Palpatine/Sidious was a senator on Naboo for at least a few years before TPM. Sifo-Dyas was a real Jedi who existed at that time as well.
    He couldnt be both of those men, because he couldnt be in two places at once.
    (And please dont anybody start in with a clone theory. :p )

    Now what about Palpatine you ask. Well what if he(you mean Sidious, right?) somehow created the identity of Palpatine as well. What if Palpatine were someone else whose identity he hijacked? I'm not saying that he and Sid are two different people. I don't buy into that theory....but what if the original Palpatine were someone else?

    Yeah, I agree thats very possible. But it opens up a whole world of possibilities. Are you saying he like... "Force possesed" somebody? Or did he just kill someone & steal their identity?
    I guess Im not sure where you're going with that.

    It's not like we know anything about Palpatines history prior to TPM.

    Well, we know he was established already. People knew who he was. He was Senator from Naboo, and he was so well connected he managed to get himself nominated & then elected Chancelor. Force powers or not, I think its safe to say he had been in public life for some time.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that Sifo died around the time of TPM.

    I dont either. But I think it relates more to Dookus departure from the Jedi than Palpatine/Sidious.
  12. w0rf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 1
    My thoughts on Sifo-Dyas - It can't really be anyone we already know in the SW universe, else GL creates a huge plothole in the trilogy. To whit:

    1). It can't be Qui-Gonn because a). he was referred as a member of the council and b). Obi-Wan witnessed Qui-Gonn's death but has never equated the two Jedi.

    2). It cannot be Sidious because the Jedi would recognize a Jedi who was supposed to be dead, and turns up to be not only alive, not only a Senator, but the Supreme Chancellor.

    3). It cannot be Dooku because a). SD is dead and b). Dooku's departure from the Jedi Order appears to be a well-documented event in the recent history of the Order.

    4). It cannot be Windu because, again, SD is dead.

    The death of SD appears to be a well-documented event as well. Everyone seems to know who he was, that he was killed, and that no one else around is the same guy as him. So it's very unlikely that it is a pseudonym for someone else running around alive.

    Only two real possibilities exist as far as I can tell: either Sifo-Dyas was a doppleganger who killed off and assumed the identity of someone else such as Windu, or more likely, someone used his name as a cover to order the clones in the name of the Council.
  13. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    IMHO :) , Sifo Dyas is not dead.

    Based on the dialogue in the movie, I just don't think its definite.
  14. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Sifo Dyas is dead. But his impersonator isn't. SD was dead even before TPM's events, I reckon.
  15. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    now, i dont really believe what i am about to say, but it doesnt seem that ne1 has brought it up, so here it goes.... why couldnt SD have been a sith lord? Sidious had to have had a master just like maul and vader. I dont see why this is not a plausible scenario, SD is on the jedi council and is a sith lord at the same time, he orders the clone army a few weeks before TPM, but someone catches wind of his plans, someone like mace windu, windu kills SD, but doesnt realize that he is a sith, just a fallen jedi who is doing dangerous things. Windu doesnt really figure out the part about the clone army, which would kind of explain the look he gives yoda during their conversation with obi wan via hologram..... this is just a theory, probablly not right but hey, im just throwin it out there, most likely, Sifo-Dyas is an alias for Sidious.
  16. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    perhaps maul was secretly raised by sidious, i mean sid is obviously good at hiding things
    from powerful people, and i dont think it would be hard for SD to conceal his true identity, Sidious does it and hes very close to the Jedi, as Supreme Chancellor
  17. w0rf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 1
    To forward this theory, you need to explain why it's necessary for SD to be a Sith Lord. What impact does that have on the story? I don't see any benefit to him being a Sith Lord as opposed to a turned Jedi or just someone killed in a bar fight.

    :edit: This just clued me in to something. It's been established that Jedi don't just die for dumb reasons like stepping in front of a bus or something... suppose Sifo-Dyas was suspicious of Palpy and/or Dooku, maybe he was snooping around or something. The Sith find him out, then have him KILLED to shut him up, and use his name as a convenient cover to order the clone army? Is it possible?
  18. Jedi_Lord_Windu Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2003
    star 4
    there really wouldnt be great reason for my theory, but it would at least makes sense and would clear up the question of sidious and his origins, i mean, someone must have trained him to be a sith, i think this would clear it up quite well, better than a fallen or snoopy jedi master. but just my opin. i know it wont happen, but i think it would make sense
  19. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I think Sifo Dyas was a real true Jedi who is killed in the line of duty. It was after this that Palpatine started his Chess game. Take Sifo Dyas' name order the clones under that premise, and names himself after Sifo Dyas with a small alteration. Calls himself Darth and the rest is history. I can see Darth Sidious laugh his way on this and taunts the Jedi with this revelation.

    I really don't think we'll hear much about Sifo Dyas but the above (my scenario-unlikely but just an idea) but the important thing is who erased the files. That's integral. Yoda is still meditating on this ;)
  20. w0rf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2002
    star 1
    I think Sifo Dyas was a real true Jedi who is killed in the line of duty. It was after this that Palpatine started his Chess game. Take Sifo Dyas' name order the clones under that premise, and names himself after Sifo Dyas with a small alteration. Calls himself Darth and the rest is history. I can see Darth Sidious laugh his way on this and taunts the Jedi with this revelation.

    Other than assuming his name, I think this is pretty much how it went.

    And who better to help him achieve all these things than a high-ranking Jedi... say... Dooku...
  21. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Thats kindof a cool idea, but in terms of movies (Episode 3 specifically ;) ) then that means.... it'll just be some explanation by one of the characters? We dont even get to see the guy? We just hear about him? However cool the story may be be, unless the dialogue is great ( [face_plain] ) IMO, it wouldnt really work well for the movie. Dont you think? It would just be a story. Take like 20 seconds. So what? Why bother making it such a big deal?
    And I dont think we'll get a flashback scene. SW has never had one before. I cant picture that. So, if you guys are right, and we dont get a flashback scene - we just get a story. About a dead guy. Heck, even if we got a flashback scene we'd only see the guy for a few seconds, why would we care about him? And GL went through all that trouble to leave this as something he'll explain in E3. As if its important. "A dark and disturbing puzzle" to be solved in the next film, 3 years later... and it all ends with : "he died already."

    I dont know....
    That doesnt seem right to me.
  22. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    AHPR, here's my look at things. My previous post was just to make it interesting.



    Sifo Dyas is dead. Someone posed as him (probably Palpatine/Darth Sidious), orders the clones with help of Dooku who finances it.

    But the point is that the clones wars have begun, and the use of clones is the tragedy. It changes the Republic into an Empire due to the Emergency Powers that officially called them into action.

    Ep. II shows that the Jedi had no choice but to accept guiding the clones as they are indeed outnumbered (and cannot keep the peace as it were with this problem). Also because as we see it would have been exterminated if not of the clones.

    Therefore, I think it doesn?t matter who Sifo Dyas is anymore. Yoda knows that the infamous or the feared Clone wars had begun because they have been blind to it and let things falter as they could not ?see? the creation of the clones.

    If they could ?see?, they would have watched the Senate more carefully during TPM?s time but its simply all too late really. They are IMO simply implicated .

    Now, that we got that out of the way ;), the remaining thing is that the mystery of who erased the files. That is important because most likely it was someone who was "partnering Sidious". And it ain't Dooku, IMO. Dooku I believe tried to recruit Obi Wan after the clone wars was most certain to become a reality or on time, but Sidious' has been molding someone else. Hmmm. I think that's who erased the files.

    So my feeling is that Sifo Dyas' role is over, when he didn't really do it. The Clone Wars beginning is the crux, regardless of Sifo Dyas.

    *end of soapbox* :D
  23. arrowheadpodracer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 5
    Ok. I gotcha.

    I still respectively disagree. :)

    If Dooku is not Sifo-Dyas - I'm ok with that. I just want a good explanation and IMO, "He's dead." is not good. *shrug* Thats pretty much where my theory comes from. If he's dead, they might not even bother to explain it to us in the movie. (Remember the midichlorians everybody thought were so important?) So maybe its a totally pointless name drop that leads nowhere.
    But I dont think so.

    One other possibilty that I like is a third player. Someone besides Dooku & Sidious, working witht the Jedi. That might be cool, depending on how they do it, but it would throw off the rule of two & that kinda sucks, but.... whatever.
    I just want a good story. :)
  24. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    I'm sure this point has been brough up before, but...

    Does anything think it's possible that Sifo went missing during some mission and was proclaimed dead, though they have no proof? Perhaps Sifo really did order the clones personally, and is now working for Sidious.

    It's doubtful, but it's a theory that I don't recall coming up recently.
  25. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    You respect me? Im not worthy :p

    Seriously, Im with you. I really want to see a good story to come out of this mystery as well. I think most of the time, this subject has gone round and round enough. But it?ll great if one of our suppositions are closer to the mark. However, as it as been mentioned, we still need other clues or in other words, Ep. III is indeed required. All we have is just conjecture.

    Are you pre-supposing a shock revelation?. Well, if it makes Sifo Dyas some sort of ?new? unknown Jedi who comes back and it makes it a better story, Im all for it.

    For example, (well it wasn?t deemed as a shock but) when Yoda fights Dooku, Yoda says ?my old padawan?. Even the great Yoda couldn?t stop his former pupil from turning. In the same token, this means that nothing is fool proof with the Jedi.

    So Ep. III could show, how Sidious was able to manipulate even the foundation and structure of the Jedi order, that brings upon one more revelation (besides the Dark side clouding the Jedi?s vision) ? as it may be begging. The Sifo Dyas mystery is the final ?nail in the coffin? so to speak.

    Is this making sense, or not? Are we on the same wavelength? I sure as *ell confused myself. [face_blush]
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